Former Christians: What Made You a Skeptic?

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.

You can't equate organized religion with God. They aren't the same thing.
Let me reword that.

I am Agnostic, so I believe that there is something that created all this universe, some force, but I do not know what it is. It can be anything. when I say Ido not fear God, I do not fear whatever it is that created this world. Why should I fear it? Organized religions make you fear God, this one entity that is theall-knowing, all-powerful, and the Ruler of the Universe. Growing up, when I did things that were 'sinful', I used to get scared and live in fearbecause of what I did and that it was agaisnt the religion. It all goes back to how organized religion tries to input this fear into the masses of thistranscendent, omniprescent entity. If you do hot follow Him, obey him, or follow his guidebook, you are doomed to Hell. I just do not want to live in fearbecause of a religion telling me if I do not pray a certain way, or fast a certain way, or believe in that God as the savior, I am doomed to hell.

I will seek the truth and wisdom through my experiences and discoveries. I may never get the answers to life and what my purspose is here on earth, but that isthe beauty of it. To live life on your own terms, and your own guidebook, without having this fear of this Unknown Being or the fear organized religioninstills in us. That is what I mean by all of it.

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.

You can't equate organized religion with God. They aren't the same thing.

Let me reword that.

I am Agnostic, so I believe that there is something that created all this universe, some force, but I do not know what it is. It can be anything. when I say I do not fear God, I do not fear whatever it is that created this world. Why should I fear it? Organized religions make you fear God, this one entity that is the all-knowing, all-powerful, and the Ruler of the Universe. Growing up, when I did things that were 'sinful', I used to get scared and live in fear because of what I did and that it was agaisnt the religion. It all goes back to how organized religion tries to input this fear into the masses of this transcendent, omniprescent entity. If you do hot follow Him, obey him, or follow his guidebook, you are doomed to Hell. I just do not want to live in fear because of a religion telling me if I do not pray a certain way, or fast a certain way, or believe in that God as the savior, I am doomed to hell.

I will seek the truth and wisdom through my experiences and discoveries. I may never get the answers to life and what my purspose is here on earth, but that is the beauty of it. To live life on your own terms, and your own guidebook, without having this fear of this Unknown Being or the fear organized religion instills in us. That is what I mean by all of it.



Assuming that you were once Christian/raised Christian, I don't think you quite understood the points of the Bible. According to the OldTestament, Israel, God's people, they were given laws to obey which they continually broke. They lived a life of bondage. They had so much atonement toadhere for their sins, after God had delivered them from the hands of the Egyptians. Also, according to prophecy in the book of Isaiah, a prophet would comeand deliver the people of Israel whom was not Elijah nor Moses. Which technically is Jesus.

Fast forward to the New Testament, the basis of it was to show that Jesus, the most pure of God's children, sacrificed his life to die for all of our sins,thus creating a new pact with God, that if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and is your Lord and Savior, that you would not be sent to hell foreternal damnation.

A lot of people I know are still caught up in the bondage that the Old Testament talked about, yet believe in Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus, then whyare you afraid of sinning. The sins you have committed or are going to commit have already been paid for by Jesus' blood on the cross.

 

[retrospect90]

Originally Posted by SUSHI AND GRITS

Bottomline, everyone should believe in their own truths and stop trying to convert people into their way of thinking. Communicate your ideas to other people but don't force them to believe what you believe. If they do fine, but if not then move on and live your life.

Thats all you really can do. Sometimes people are going to believe in what the believe in until they die. Just let it go. I don't pass up anyopporitunities to explain my beliefs/religion to others, is my duty not to. Some people listen and others don't but hey I just keep moving.

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.

You can't equate organized religion with God. They aren't the same thing.

Let me reword that.

I am Agnostic, so I believe that there is something that created all this universe, some force, but I do not know what it is. It can be anything. when I say I do not fear God, I do not fear whatever it is that created this world. Why should I fear it? Organized religions make you fear God, this one entity that is the all-knowing, all-powerful, and the Ruler of the Universe. Growing up, when I did things that were 'sinful', I used to get scared and live in fear because of what I did and that it was agaisnt the religion. It all goes back to how organized religion tries to input this fear into the masses of this transcendent, omniprescent entity. If you do hot follow Him, obey him, or follow his guidebook, you are doomed to Hell. I just do not want to live in fear because of a religion telling me if I do not pray a certain way, or fast a certain way, or believe in that God as the savior, I am doomed to hell.

I will seek the truth and wisdom through my experiences and discoveries. I may never get the answers to life and what my purspose is here on earth, but that is the beauty of it. To live life on your own terms, and your own guidebook, without having this fear of this Unknown Being or the fear organized religion instills in us. That is what I mean by all of it.

Assuming that you were once Christian/raised Christian, I don't think you quite understood the points of the Bible. According to the Old Testament, Israel, God's people, they were given laws to obey which they continually broke. They lived a life of bondage. They had so much atonement to adhere for their sins, after God had delivered them from the hands of the Egyptians. Also, according to prophecy in the book of Isaiah, a prophet would come and deliver the people of Israel whom was not Elijah nor Moses. Which technically is Jesus.

Fast forward to the New Testament, the basis of it was to show that Jesus, the most pure of God's children, sacrificed his life to die for all of our sins, thus creating a new pact with God, that if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and is your Lord and Savior, that you would not be sent to hell for eternal damnation.

A lot of people I know are still caught up in the bondage that the Old Testament talked about, yet believe in Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus, then why are you afraid of sinning. The sins you have committed or are going to commit have already been paid for by Jesus' blood on the cross.

First of all, no one can really "quite understands the points of" a book that is so open to interpretation. Secondly, the reason peopleare caught up with the old vengeful version is because every time something catastrophic happens, many Christian leaders will allude to it being the wrath ofGod. And third, not all forms of Christianity believes that belief in Christ dying for the one's sins guarantees a place in Heaven. In Catholicism, thereare levels of sins that you must pray from your heart to find a place in Heaven. Clean souls get fast-tracked to Heaven while the slightly soiled ones get aplace in Purgatory for a second chance to work their way into Heaven. The dirty ones are Hell-bound.

And I still want this question answered by the Christian apologists: Why was it a "sin" to learn the difference between right and wrong? I'mreferencing the Original Sin committed by Adam and Eve by partaking in the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Sounds like a trap to me.

 

[kb8sandiego]

^
Well, as for me, I don't really agree with Catholicism. I was a "cradle Catholic" and was later "saved." I base a lot of my faith outof the Bible rather than just the "relgious rituals" the Catholic Church teaches. For me Catholicism goes against a lot from what the Bible teaches.Technically, it's the same book they read from aside from what was added in regards to the Maccabees. But in the Bible, it does state, that you shall notchange or add to the word. Then again, that contradicts itself in regards to translation when it comes to the KJV, NKJV, NIV, and etc.

Also, according to the Catholics, The Virgin Mary is held in very high regard and is prayed to and treated like she is alongside God. No where in the Bibledoes it state any importance of Mary other than she was chosen to give birth to Jesus by God.

Also, according to the Bible, there is no mention or existence ever of purgatory. My mom is a Catholic, and tells me it's all from the same book. I thenresponded, if it's all from the same book, why do you worship images and statues? Why do you worship the Virgin Mary? Why do you do all these ritualisticthings when in fact, according to the same book, it's blasphemy?

I dunno, that's just my standpoint in regards to Catholicism.

 

[rko2004]

Secondly, the reason people are caught up with the old vengeful version is because every time something catastrophic happens, many Christian leaders will allude to it being the wrath of God.
Well then the people who do this shouldn't blame God for natural disasters. I had a friend who did that with the Katrina situation. Sometimesstuff happens because of nature. We need to understand that.

And I still want this question answered by the Christian apologists: Why was it a "sin" to learn the difference between right and wrong? I'm referencing the Original Sin committed by Adam and Eve by partaking in the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Sounds like a trap to me.
The Tree of Knowledge basically opened the door up to what we see today. Prior I don't think we were capable of a lot of the crap we do now. Ithink we were going to be raised under God's vision of how we should have been so who knows where that would have took us. See everything breaks down to aroot. I believe the disobedience they displayed is the root of our problems to this day. For everyone that bashes God, He can't be that bad if He wastrying to protect us from all of this.

These are the views of RKO2004.

 

[lobotomybeats]

Originally Posted by uknowdonti

http://www.youtube.com/v/vnMYL8sF7bQ&rel=1
It's long but it's a good debate, well at least from Hitchens' side. Notice that Boteach doesn't really answer Hitchens' questions specifically but chooses to attack him more than the actual issue at hand.

This is what happens when mysticism tries to debate logic.

 

[russ tha g]

How did Jesus's death justify ALL of our sins? How could they have possibly imagined all the crazy sins that go on these days - the degree of vulgaritypeople live with. Wouldn't Jesus's death expire so to speak? That is, I'd imagine his death would be a like a prepaid-sin-reliever, and it wouldhave to deplete eventually. The "God knows" and "God works in mysterious ways" are just ways to bounce around the truth - that thereisn't that much fact or thought in all of this.

If you were to talk about ANY subject besides religion and use a justification of "because I said so" or "you just wouldn't know" -you'd be laughed at.

 

[kb8sandiego]

How did Jesus's death justify ALL of our sins? How could they have possibly imagined all the crazy sins that go on these days - the degree of vulgarity people live with. Wouldn't Jesus's death expire so to speak?
John 3:16.

Really, you don't want Jesus' death to atone for your past and future sins?

His dying on the cross for your sins does not expire. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.

Sin is sin, regardless of the degree. Lust is equivalent to that of murder.

 

[russ tha g]

Lust is equivalent to that of murder.

 

[kb8sandiego]

^
Read the Bible. It's in there.

 

[rko2004]

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

^
Read the Bible. It's in there.

I think a lot if not all the questions in here can be answered by the bible. The only problem is, the answers that are provided aren't the answers you allwant

. It basically comes down to "believe what you want andwe'll see what happens in the end".

 

[atlien seeko]

Bookmarked

 

[solidsnake]

....Moaar...

 

[kix4kix]

NO intelligent person should believe anything blindly. That being said I still believe in God. Different religion though.

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

^
Read the Bible. It's in there.

It also says that eating shellfish is an abomination much like a man who sleeps with another man, or a man who sleeps with a woman while Aunt Flow is in town.


[size=-1]"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thingwhich is in the water, they are an [/size]abomination [size=-1]to you." (Leviticus11:10)[/size]
The Bible also states that no one should eat pork.


And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7)



I'm trying to understand your view on Christ dying for the sins of the world. Not to accuse you of condoning actions such as lust, rape, or murder, butwhat do you mean when you say:

Really, you don't want Jesus' death to atone for your past and future sins?

I'm really trying to gauge your modus operandi within this debate. Are you basically a skeptical Christian? Where exactly do you stand on the topic athand? I'm asking respectfully.

 

[moonmaster3]

It also says that eating shellfish is an abomination much like a man who sleeps with another man, or a man who sleeps with a woman while Aunt Flow is in town.

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)



The Bible also states that no one should eat pork.


And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7)


Modern Christian scholars believe their is a strong sense of antinomianism within the Bible. Basically meaning Christians are not bound word for word in thelaws within the text. Essentially, following these things strictly and doing good deeds doesn't necessarily guarantee you Heaven. Only the grace of Goddoes.

Though the analogy is flawed, I guess it might be similar to a country's laws and constitution. J-walking is illegal, but you probably won't get aticket for it nor will you feel any sort of moral wrongdoing.

 

[wooly willy]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.

You can't equate organized religion with God. They aren't the same thing.

Let me reword that.

I am Agnostic, so I believe that there is something that created all this universe, some force, but I do not know what it is. It can be anything. when I say I do not fear God, I do not fear whatever it is that created this world. Why should I fear it? Organized religions make you fear God, this one entity that is the all-knowing, all-powerful, and the Ruler of the Universe. Growing up, when I did things that were 'sinful', I used to get scared and live in fear because of what I did and that it was agaisnt the religion. It all goes back to how organized religion tries to input this fear into the masses of this transcendent, omniprescent entity. If you do hot follow Him, obey him, or follow his guidebook, you are doomed to Hell. I just do not want to live in fear because of a religion telling me if I do not pray a certain way, or fast a certain way, or believe in that God as the savior, I am doomed to hell.

I will seek the truth and wisdom through my experiences and discoveries. I may never get the answers to life and what my purspose is here on earth, but that is the beauty of it. To live life on your own terms, and your own guidebook, without having this fear of this Unknown Being or the fear organized religion instills in us. That is what I mean by all of it.



You bring up some interesting points.
1.) In your previous post (I didn't want the quote to be too long

)you said you do not believe in "organized" religion. I always found it fascinating that people always throw the word "organized" in there.I have never heard of a "disorganized" religion before in my life. Since you believe in an almighty creator, then you are drawing your beliefs fromsome "organized" religion in the world and if you made the attributes of the God you believe in yourself, then you "organized" your ownreligion. Sorry to split hairs but I just never understood what "organized" and "disorganized" religions were.

2.) Since you are a a former Muslim and I am a (fairly) newly practicing Muslim, I think I can see where you are headed with the being taught to fear Allah argument. Let's look at it. You said you believe in a being that created the universe and everything in it including us human beings. Now, logicallyspeaking, this "being" would have created the universe for a specific reason and, I agree with you, that the reason is truly unknown. What we doknow, however, is that this "being" does exist. Since you come from an Islamic background, I am assuming you know the Qur'an fairly well alongwith the life of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Qur'an makes mention several times that the truth and the signs of Allah are there for those that arethoughtful. Just by looking at the life of the Prophet pbuh, there are clear evidences that his prophethood was authentic and that the Lord he was speaking ofis the being that created this universe. If you want, I can elaborate on this in another post since it would probably be too long and I know attention spans onNT are short as is

. Anyways, if this being created you, provided foryou, gave you your eyesight, health, wealth, provisions, etc then you must feel grateful at the least. For example, my parents raised me, took care of me, gaveme the opportunity to go to school, ect and words cannot express how much I love them for that. I respect them and love them so much that I feel horrible whenI do anything against their wishes and fear to disobey them. Do I fear them because of the punishment? No. I fear them because they have done so much for mealready that I fear disappointing them. This is the same obedience and respect the Prophet Muhammad pbuh taught his followers to have. He didn't just keepdrilling people with hell stories over and over again but rather, he emphasized the greatness of God and the respect he deserves. Actually, in an authenticnarration of his wife Aisha, she advised the later generations of Muslims not to mention hell that much in the speaches because people will get used to hearingabout it. That is not the point of fearing Allah. I have so much more to say about this subject but I'll stop it right here.

Before I end this, let me say I have so much respect because you are not a sheep that just blindly follows faith without questioning. There are so many Muslimsout there in the world that are just "Muslim" because their parents are and they don't even care to learn about their own religion. As I startedquestioning my religion, I saw how much truth their was in the Qur'an and the words of the Prophet pbuh that I have no doubt in my mind that Islam is thecorrect religion.

 

[iiceman83]

Originally Posted by Chi ILL

Originally Posted by columbiasneaks

"God is Santa Claus for adults"

 

[vatech733]

i just read the post about how small the earth really is and the pictures that showed what other galaxies looked like 13 billion light years away and i havealways thought about how religion seemed almost insane to me. I was thinking if there are infinity galaxies there are infinity life forms. Then i thought abouthow rediculous religion really sound when you put it all in perspective. I understand religion is all about faith and living a good life but i really believethat if you live the right way and have a faith in yourself you do not need religion to guide you in the right direction. Idk though just thinking about howmuch else is really out there its highly unlikely to impossible that any religion is even close to being true. any one else feel the same way?

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

It also says that eating shellfish is an abomination much like a man who sleeps with another man, or a man who sleeps with a woman while Aunt Flow is in town.

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)



The Bible also states that no one should eat pork.


And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7)

Modern Christian scholars believe their is a strong sense of antinomianism within the Bible. Basically meaning Christians are not bound word for word in the laws within the text. Essentially, following these things strictly and doing good deeds doesn't necessarily guarantee you Heaven. Only the grace of God does.

Though the analogy is flawed, I guess it might be similar to a country's laws and constitution. J-walking is illegal, but you probably won't get a ticket for it nor will you feel any sort of moral wrongdoing.
My point wasn't to debate modern Christian scholars. It was to rebut the statement "It's in there", by listing more items thatare "in there" that apologists who take the Bible literally rarely bring up, if ever. He also said sin was sin and that lust = murder. My post andquestioning was specifically aimed at him. I respect your input, though.

 

[wooly willy]

Originally Posted by vatech733

i just read the post about how small the earth really is and the pictures that showed what other galaxies looked like 13 billion light years away and i have always thought about how religion seemed almost insane to me. I was thinking if there are infinity galaxies there are infinity life forms. Then i thought about how rediculous religion really sound when you put it all in perspective. I understand religion is all about faith and living a good life but i really believe that if you live the right way and have a faith in yourself you do not need religion to guide you in the right direction. Idk though just thinking about how much else is really out there its highly unlikely to impossible that any religion is even close to being true. any one else feel the same way?

That just reaffirms my faith with God. God says in the Qur'an:
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expandingit."
(51:47)

Early Muslims had no idea what this verse meant and for thousands of years, it was just said that it is one of the mysteries of God. It was not until recentlywhen scientists have discovered that the universe is expanding that Islamic scholars have grasped the meaning of this verse.

 

[daytona 5000]

People always look at me funny and ridicule me when I say that I believe in Aliens more then I believe in Jesus.

 

[moonmaster3]

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

People always look at me funny and ridicule me when I say that I believe in Aliens more then I believe in Jesus.

You mean, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[kix4kix]

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

People always look at me funny and ridicule me when I say that I believe in Aliens more then I believe in Jesus.

Believe that they exist?....Or in them?.......Jesus was a great MAN.