ESPN chooses their Top 10 Greatest Shooting Guards of all time

[downtown43]

Fail? Hardly.

In 35 years, if/when athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, smarter than the dudes of today, are you gonna penalize MJ or LeBron or Mamba for not being able to "hold up" to the players of that future era too?

Come on man... West did what he did and dominated. Period. Don't try to take away from that.

first of all, MJ, Lebron, and Kobe are physical specimens period. if they played 35 years from now they would still be physical specimens, just like Kareemwould be a physical specimen if he played now. but from all accounts, West wasn't even a physical specimen in his era, so he would instantly be underhandedin that aspect in the NBA today

second, its not just about athletes. MJ, Lebron, and Kobe are skilled in every facet of basketball. no one will ever bring up "lack of dribblingskills" as one of their flaws. athletes have gotten better since Pete Maravich played, but if this was Pistol Pete we were talking about, we wouldn'teven be arguing right now. why? he had no known flaws as far as basketball SKILLS, so you know he would bust #+@ in any time period even if the athleticismpassed him by.

but if West was small and couldn't even dribble back then... come on dude, there's no way he would succeed now.

 

[true 3 blue]

Ok, those dudes listed are not my favorite players. BUT, ska did u see West play? If so........... MY GOD HOW OLD ARE YOU?!

jk

 

[kicks4days]

Why is everyone talking about how great Jerry West is when 98% of younever watched a game he played in

Are you guys going by numbersand what everyone else says? C'mon now

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

It's going to be fun listening to Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Shaq, Kidd, T-Mac, and Chris Paul fans about 20 years from now.

Well, not ALL fans of those players; JUUUST the ones that are CURRENTLY saying 'Hey, don't tell me about West; you never saw him play.' It's going to be fun eavesdropping on you guys as you try to drop knowledge on people about your favorite player, and how you saw him play and he was phenomenal. And then they tell you 'Man, that's cool, but _______ would school your boy LeBron.' And you laugh and go, 'Nope. Sorry.'

See, what you SHOULD say at that point would be 'Well, I guess you feel that way because you never saw my dude LeBron play. But since you didn't, I'm just going to have to leave this argument alone.'

But you're not going to do that; you're going to keep expecting this person listen to your rants about this phenomenal player that they never saw.

I'm looking forward to it.

That's what I'm saying ska.

In 35 years, if/when athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, smarter than the dudes of today, are you gonna penalize MJ or LeBron or Mamba for not being able to "hold up" to the players of that future era too?

And I don't understand why so many people are running with the "overrate older players that you never even saw play" argument.

Sometimes sheer numbers alone are good enough to justify an argument. Never saw Wilt play. But 100 points in a game is 100 points in a game.

Dudes are acting as if Jerry West's numbers don't back up his position as one of the greatest guards to ever play the game.


[table][tr][td]
CAREER SEASON AVERAGES
[/td] [td]

[/td] [/tr][/table][table][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]DEF[/td] [td]RPG[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]SPG[/td] [td]BPG[/td] [td]TO[/td] [td]PF[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1960-61[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]79[/td] [td][/td] [td]35.4[/td] [td].419[/td] [td][/td] [td].666[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]7.7[/td] [td]4.2[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.70[/td] [td]17.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1961-62[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]75[/td] [td][/td] [td]41.2[/td] [td].445[/td] [td][/td] [td].769[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]7.9[/td] [td]5.4[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.30[/td] [td]30.8[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1962-63[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]55[/td] [td][/td] [td]39.3[/td] [td].461[/td] [td][/td] [td].778[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]7.0[/td] [td]5.6[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.70[/td] [td]27.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1963-64[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]72[/td] [td][/td] [td]40.4[/td] [td].484[/td] [td][/td] [td].832[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]6.2[/td] [td]5.6[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.80[/td] [td]28.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1964-65[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]74[/td] [td][/td] [td]41.4[/td] [td].497[/td] [td][/td] [td].821[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]6.0[/td] [td]4.9[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]3.00[/td] [td]31.0[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1965-66[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]79[/td] [td][/td] [td]40.7[/td] [td].473[/td] [td][/td] [td].860[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]7.1[/td] [td]6.1[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]3.10[/td] [td]31.3[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1966-67[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]66[/td] [td][/td] [td]40.5[/td] [td].464[/td] [td][/td] [td].878[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]5.9[/td] [td]6.8[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.40[/td] [td]28.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1967-68[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]51[/td] [td][/td] [td]37.6[/td] [td].514[/td] [td][/td] [td].811[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]5.8[/td] [td]6.1[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]3.00[/td] [td]26.3[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1968-69[/td] [td]Los Angeles (N.B.A.)[/td] [td]61[/td] [td][/td] [td]39.2[/td] [td].471[/td] [td][/td] [td].821[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]4.3[/td] [td]6.9[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.60[/td] [td]25.9[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1969-70[/td] [td]Los Angeles (N.B.A.)[/td] [td]74[/td] [td][/td] [td]42.0[/td] [td].497[/td] [td][/td] [td].824[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]4.6[/td] [td]7.5[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.20[/td] [td]31.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1970-71[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]69[/td] [td][/td] [td]41.2[/td] [td].494[/td] [td][/td] [td].832[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]4.6[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.60[/td] [td]26.9[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1971-72[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]77[/td] [td][/td] [td]38.6[/td] [td].477[/td] [td][/td] [td].814[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]4.2[/td] [td]9.7[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.70[/td] [td]25.8[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1972-73[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]69[/td] [td][/td] [td]35.7[/td] [td].479[/td] [td][/td] [td].805[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]4.2[/td] [td]8.8[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]2.00[/td] [td]22.8[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1973-74[/td] [td]Los Angeles[/td] [td]31[/td] [td][/td] [td]31.2[/td] [td].447[/td] [td][/td] [td].833[/td] [td]1.0[/td] [td]2.8[/td] [td]3.7[/td] [td]6.6[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td][/td] [td]2.60[/td] [td]20.3[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Career[/td] [td] [/td] [td]932[/td] [td][/td] [td]39.2[/td] [td].474[/td] [td][/td] [td].814[/td] [td]1.0[/td] [td]2.8[/td] [td]5.8[/td] [td]6.7[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td][/td] [td]2.60[/td] [td]27.0[/td] [/tr][/table]

I don't think I needed to "see" this guy play to know that he was good.

 

[true 3 blue]

^come on now, u know #s aren't everything.

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by kicks4days

Why is everyone talking about how great Jerry West is when 98% of you never watched a game he played in

Are you guys going by numbers and what everyone else says? C'mon now

I bet half the people in this post never saw Dennis Rodman play. Without a doubt, he's one of the greatest rebounders to ever lace 'em up.Anyone looking at just his numbers can tell you that. No need to see him play.

Same with Wilt. Have you ever seen Wilt play? I highly doubt it. But FIFTY POINTS PER GAME IS FIFTY POINTS PER GAME.

Are you guys kidding me? Putting so much into actually "seeing" someone play? Actually seeing someone play is for players who do NOT have the numbersto back up their accolades (Reggie Miller for example).

edit:

Not saying that seeing someone play is NOT important. But what I'm trying to say is that certain players you can just go by numbers to support the claimthat that player is as good as others say.

 

[24 k b 8]

MJ in his wettest dreams could never achieve 81 puntos...

 

[darthska]

true 3 blue:

---

Ok, those dudes listed are not my favorite players. BUT, ska did u see West play? If so........... MY GOD HOW OLD ARE YOU?!

jk
Heck no. C'mon now.

But I'm saying, you'll be arguing with some dude about T-Mac 20 years from now, knowing DAMN well that you just end the argument with 'Well, Irespect that you can't say T-Mac is better than your favorite player, because you never saw T-Mac play. I wish that you had seen him play. But youdidn't. So I'm just going to have to stop arguing with you, because you have every right to think that your boy John Doe is better than T-Mac, becauseyou never saw T-Mac.'

But you're not going to say that.

Are you?

I didn't see West play, but just like you'll be saying this to people arguing against T-Mac 20 years from now, I say this now: you don't HAVE tohave lived in someone's era and seen them play to know their greatness.

I never saw Alexander the great rule... but... I hear he was a little good at it.

A little.

 

[scottsauce88]

I like when people underrate older players because they've never seen them play. (Abbreviated ESPN Classic joints do not count.)
and I like when people on NT constantly state they hate people who base their argument purely on stats, but come into posts like these and basethem purely on stats.

It's going to be fun listening to Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Shaq, Kidd, T-Mac, and Chris Paul fans about 20 years from now.

Well, not ALL fans of those players; JUUUST the ones that are CURRENTLY saying 'Hey, don't tell me about West; you never saw him play.' It's going to be fun eavesdropping on you guys as you try to drop knowledge on people about your favorite player, and how you saw him play and he was phenomenal. And then they tell you 'Man, that's cool, but _______ would school your boy LeBron.' And you laugh and go, 'Nope. Sorry.'

See, what you SHOULD say at that point would be 'Well, I guess you feel that way because you never saw my dude LeBron play. But since you didn't, I'm just going to have to leave this argument alone.'

But you're not going to do that; you're going to keep expecting this person listen to your rants about this phenomenal player that they never saw.

I'm looking forward to it.

that's cool and all, but at least in 20 years we will be able to say we actually saw this person play and base and argument off of that. Ican almost guarantee there isn't a person on this board that has seen West play enough to base a logical argument off of it. There is a difference betweenwatching an older player play and then basing an argument off of it and just arguing off of internet "resources". Watching 5-10 clips of someone onESPN classic doesnt constitute a consistent basis because you are most likely seeing that game because it was one of their best, meaning you are comparingsomeones absolute best to someone elses everyday performances.

Before people say they have seen West play, he retired in 1974, meaning you would have to be atleast 34 just to SEE him play and either 44-50 to actually seehim in his prime and to be developed enough to reflect on what he was actually doing.

I'm sorry, but Im not willing to say one player is better than the other without actually seeing both play on a consistent basis. Even statistically theyare too close to call one better than the other so I don't see how ANYONE can say one is better than the other.

 

[downtown43]

I don't think I needed to "see" this guy play to know that he was good.

NO ONE SAID HE IS NOT GOOD

but you are using his numbers only to say he was better than Kobe. you can use his numbers to prove that he was good, but you CANNOT use his numbers alone tosay he is better than someone who is playing/played in the modern era.

numbers don't go across eras... do you really believe Wilt was WAY better than Shaq and Kareem as his numbers indicate?

its obvious that there are a lot of inflated numbers from that time period. so you can't just straight up put West's numbers to someone else'swithout having seen him play. once you watch him play, you can then determine how much of his numbers were era inflation, and how much were legit.

and i haven't seen him play, but if people who did say he was small and couldn't dribble... thats all i need to know. inflated numbers. any guard whoputs up those numbers without basic guard characteristics plays in a weak league and wouldn't do that in the modern NBA

Wilt is a little different case. from all accounts he was a skilled 7-footer, had a nice jumper, great defender, superior athlete, and excelled at most facetsof the game of basketball. he is somebody that is probably more legit than inflated

 

[scottsauce88]

I bet half the people in this post never saw Dennis Rodman play. Without a doubt, he's one of the greatest rebounders to ever lace 'em up. Anyonelooking at just his numbers can tell you that. No need to see him play.

Same with Wilt. Have you ever seen Wilt play? I highly doubt it. But FIFTY POINTS PER GAME IS FIFTY POINTS PER GAME.

Are you guys kidding me? Putting so much into actually "seeing" someone play? Actually seeing someone play is for players who do NOT have the numbers to back up their accolades (Reggie Miller for example).

edit:

Not saying that seeing someone play is NOT important. But what I'm trying to say is that certain players you can just go by numbers to support the claim that that player is as good as others say.
yeah, but when you argue off of NUMBERS ALONE, you dont see all the things that go into it. We dont have a clip of Wilt's 100 point game, wedont know how the dudes played defense back then. They didnt have the same rules as we have now. You don't know how the defense plays or what theirtechnique looks like. All we knows is Wilt put up great stats and was an olympic caliber athete.

I didn't see West play, but just like you'll be saying this to people arguing against T-Mac 20 years from now, I say this now: you don't HAVE to have lived in someone's era and seen them play to know their greatness.
yes, but to say with absolutely certainty that a player is as good or better than another without actually seeing one of them play is just asrediculous. Im sorry Ska, but you werent even born when West RETIRED, so I dont see how you can say you give West this and this player he will win just asmuch as Kobe. Im not arguing one or the other because I havent seen West play, all I have is media articles and hoopedia stats and bios. I dont know whatWest's strengths are since I have never seen him in person. To know someones weaknesses you have to actually see someone play to see why that is aweakness.

 

[coolnificent]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Michael Jordan
3. Michael Jordan
4. Michael Jordan
5. Michael Jordan
6. Michael Jordan
7. Michael Jordan
8. Michael Jordan
9. Michael Jordan
10. Michael Jordan

Much better

 

[alrjordan]

Drexler!!! grew up on that man. was at the game at the garden when they retired his jersey. amazing moment.....

 

[scottsauce88]

I can't wait until they invent something that will record a moving picture. That will be the day, my friend.
so what was watching Wilts 100 point game like, oh wait

 

[darthska]

me:

---

It's going to be fun listening to Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Shaq, Kidd, T-Mac, and Chris Paul fans about 20 years from now.

Well, not ALL fans of those players; JUUUST the ones that are CURRENTLY saying 'Hey, don't tell me about West; you never saw him play.' It's going to be fun eavesdropping on you guys as you try to drop knowledge on people about your favorite player, and how you saw him play and he was phenomenal. And then they tell you 'Man, that's cool, but _______ would school your boy LeBron.' And you laugh and go, 'Nope. Sorry.'

See, what you SHOULD say at that point would be 'Well, I guess you feel that way because you never saw my dude LeBron play. But since you didn't, I'm just going to have to leave this argument alone.'

But you're not going to do that; you're going to keep expecting this person listen to your rants about this phenomenal player that they never saw.

I'm looking forward to it.

Scottsauce88:

---

that's cool and all, but at least in 20 years we will be able to say we actually saw this person play and base and argument off of that. I can almost guarantee there isn't a person on this board that has seen West play enough to base a logical argument off of it. There is a difference between watching an older player play and then basing an argument off of it and just arguing off of internet "resources". Watching 5-10 clips of someone on ESPN classic doesnt constitute a consistent basis because you are most likely seeing that game because it was one of their best, meaning you are comparing someones absolute best to someone elses everyday performances.

Before people say they have seen West play, he retired in 1974, meaning you would have to be atleast 34 just to SEE him play and either 44-50 to actually see him in his prime and to be developed enough to reflect on what he was actually doing.

I'm sorry, but Im not willing to say one player is better than the other without actually seeing both play on a consistent basis. Even statistically they are too close to call one better than the other so I don't see how ANYONE can say one is better than the other.

You're not getting my argument. Yes, YOU will be able to say you saw your favorite player play, but the 19 year old you will be arguing willNOT be able to say they saw your favorite player play. So what you SHOULD say at that point is 'Well, you didn't see my boy LeBron (for example) play,so I'm just going to have to end this argument. Go ahead and keep thinking that your boy John Doe is better than my dude LeBron. I understand you never sawLeBron, so I really can't argue with you.

Have a good day.'

Before people say they have seen West play, he retired in 1974, meaning you would have to be atleast 34 just to SEE him play and either 44-50 to actually see him in his prime and to be developed enough to reflect on what he was actually doing.

Cyprus Sinner II:

---

I can't wait until they invent something that will record a moving picture. That will be the day, my friend.

You know?

Like watching a player play a game LIVE is the only way to have watched them play the game.

 

[sohi 23]

The list is not that bad, but if someone told be D-Wade was a top 15 Shooting Guard of all-time, I would laugh at them.

Oh well, we base of what we see today, I mean how often do we see videos of Joe Dumars and Jerry West play NOW compared to D-Wade.

Still D-Wade as the 12th best sg of all time

 

[true 3 blue]

Whoever you think of, Jordan averaged more points per game than the person you think of.
WRONG

[table][tr][td] 1. Michael Jordan[/td] [td]1,072[/td] [td]12,192[/td] [td]7,327[/td] [td]32,292[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td] 1. Wilt Chamberlain[/td] [td]1,045[/td] [td]12,681[/td] [td]6,057[/td] [td]31,419[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

[scottsauce88]

We were talking about Jerry West, chief.
ok, so what was watching West's 1972 season like, chief????

You're not getting my argument. Yes, YOU will be able to say you saw your favorite player play, but the 19 year old you will be arguing will NOT be able to say they saw your favorite player play. So what you SHOULD say at that point is 'Well, you didn't see my boy LeBron (for example) play, so I'm just going to have to end this argument. Go ahead and keep thinking that your boy John Doe is better than my dude LeBron. I understand you never saw LeBron, so I really can't argue with you.

Have a good day.'
I realize what you are arguing but it makes no sense in the context of the argument we are having. Neither of us have seen West playconsistently. Your using a situation that doesnt even apply here, and if you can think of a way feel free.

Like watching a player play a game LIVE is the only way to have watched them play the game.
have you seen West play anywhere?

 

[classy freshman]

Forget all the Nostalgia...

Kobe>The Logo

First of all Jerry West's rookie season there were only 8 teams in the NBA. By the time his career was over, there were only 16.

Lets also take into consideration a lot talent like DR J, Connie Hawkins, George Gervin, David Thompson etc. were playing in the ABA during Jerry West'sprime.

So Jerry West was playing in an at best 16 team league that arguably didn't even have the best talent of the time.

Now today, we have the NBA, CBA, NBDL, very competitive EURO Leagues, and great basketball being played all around the world. The amount of preparation todaysplayers put into basketball is broken down into a science where everything about a player is micro-managed. You have dieting, weight training, all kind ofcamps, medicine, etc. The talent pool and level of competition today is miles ahead of the talent pool in Jerry West's era. The margin for era and skilllevel is so slim from player to player today. And for a player like Kobe to excel the way he has in this era, is way more impressive than Jerry West'sachievements in his.

 

[bullsrepeat3peat]

Originally Posted by true 3 blue

Whoever you think of, Jordan averaged more points per game than the person you think of.

WRONG

[table][tr][td]1. Michael Jordan[/td] [td]1,072[/td] [td]12,192[/td] [td]7,327[/td] [td]32,292[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1. Wilt Chamberlain[/td] [td]1,045[/td] [td]12,681[/td] [td]6,057[/td] [td]31,419[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][/table]

[table][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Michael Jordan[/td] [td]30.12[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Wilt Chamberlain*[/td] [td]30.07[/td] [/tr][/table]
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

not that big of a difference, but still

that's including MJ's Wizards years too..

 

[true 3 blue]

[table][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Michael Jordan[/td] [td]30.12[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Wilt Chamberlain*[/td] [td]30.07[/td] [/tr][/table]

u gotta be kidding me

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

I don't think I needed to "see" this guy play to know that he was good.

NO ONE SAID HE IS NOT GOOD

but you are using his numbers only to say he was better than Kobe. you can use his numbers to prove that he was good, but you CANNOT use his numbers alone to say he is better than someone who is playing/played in the modern era.

numbers don't go across eras... do you really believe Wilt was WAY better than Shaq and Kareem as his numbers indicate?

its obvious that there are a lot of inflated numbers from that time period. so you can't just straight up put West's numbers to someone else's without having seen him play.


Hold up, hold up, hold up....

I don't feel like scrolling back, but you're saying that numbers don't go across eras right?

That's the same damn thing I was trying to say when you (or someone else) said that because of West's lack of size and poor dribble ability, hewouldn't match up with today's players! I was like "West dominated for that time so don't take away from him". He was crushing the L(numbers-wise) as a little man. He played in the same era as Wilt, O, Baylor, Russell, etc. He did his thing BACK THEN. So I'm not saying he'd still dohis thing now. Never said that.

And NOW you're saying "numbers don't go across eras?"

I just picked West over Beanhead b/c West proved that he could dominate for HIS time. He did it longer and more consistently than Beanhead has been doing itnow.

Shaq is a freak. Is he better than Wilt? I can't speak on that cuz I really haven't seen much of Wilt at all. I know that he played against smalleropponents but that's about it. On the flip side, Shaq played when the rules of the game changed. So I don't know.

Good debate by all. (Except the 24 dude).

 

[bullsrepeat3peat]

Too many peeps hate on Kobe....SMH

so because we don't think he's better than MJ we're haters?

I'm actually a fan of Kobe today and he's my current fav player, but it's people like you that are the reason he has so many haters

 

[24 k b 8]

Whatever.....Kobe is still at the top of the list followed by Logo

 

[bullsrepeat3peat]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

I don't think I needed to "see" this guy play to know that he was good.

NO ONE SAID HE IS NOT GOOD

but you are using his numbers only to say he was better than Kobe. you can use his numbers to prove that he was good, but you CANNOT use his numbers alone to say he is better than someone who is playing/played in the modern era.


it just an opinion

West was not more skilled as an individual than Kobe, but there's more factors to winning championships than just physical skills...

I'm not exactly sure what his argument was though, I'm not trying to speak for him....