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List looks pretty accurate to me.
ESPN chooses their Top 10 Greatest Shooting Guards of all time
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by RyGuy45,
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Oh boy.. i hope ska ignores this statement and not leave a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGGGG POST and save his time defending himself..
readers or lakers fans already know the deal about him and hes real thoughts about kobe...
edit.. well im a little to late .. lol .. at least it wasnt a half page post.
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Well why would I say that if it's not true?
Kobe Bryant is a phenomenal player, and there is only one player in the league on his level: LeBron. If I'm building a franchise from the ground up, I take LeBron. But if I need to win a game TODAY ad I'll die if I lose the game, I want Kobe on my team.
So it's not true that I don't like Kobe.
However, it is true that I would take Maravich, West, and Iverson over Kobe in a list like this.
BullsRepeat3Peat:
man it's his opinion... I don't see how that makes him hate Kobe...... not everyone on NT is biased, unlike most...lnMyMind:
It has nothing to do with any bias...the statement he made CLEARLY suggests he doesn't like Kobe and that was the root of his comments. He's made no secret in the past that he doesn't particularly care for him either so I'm not just making this up.
When you bring in the "If" logic in sports....all you're doing is attempting to discredit something/someone for your own personal reasons. Saying " Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had" is just an attempt to belittle all of Kobe's career accomplishments by making it seem as if he who he is today by "circumstance" and that you can plug in another individual into his shoes and get better results. Thinly veiled hate right there...nothing more.
I wasn't trying to build an argument against Kobe; I was trying to build an argument FOR the guys I mentioned.
And I have said in the past that Kobe isn't my favorite player, but I never said I hated him, and never said he sucked.
I mean, I didn't say Kobe doesn't belong on the list, and I didn't say EVERYONE on the list is better than Kobe, like Reggie Miller. I left him alone. I simply named two legends and a current player (West, Maravich, and Iverson) that I would personally name over Kobe.
And there's nothing wrong with that at all; that's not hating on your boy at all.
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.'
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Can someone convince me that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen?
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They got 1 and 2 right IMO
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played in the jordan era and still was great....
lead hes team to an nba finals apperance..
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Reggie Miller = 12th all time leading scorer (25,279), all time leader in 3pt fg's made 2,560
Ray Allen = 18,023 career points, 2,069 career 3pt fg made
Ray Allen = 18,023 career points, 2,069 career 3pt fg made
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switch #1&2
just want to hear some flame!
lol
just want to hear some flame!
lol
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totally agree, people just don't know about Moncrief
vezon
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damn. how could they get #1 wrong? It should go to this guy.
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A lot of Nters are gonna be mad that Manu got more votes than Ray
darthska
Staff member
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me:
At any rate, you could have saved yourself a little time by simply saying 'I super, a lot, way like Kobe, so don't talk bad about him like you just did.lnMyMind:
I guess at THIS rate...you can try to counter attack with that obviously forced rebuttal...but the fact of the matter is that not once in my comments did I express ANY favoritism towards Kobe...or even simply said that I was a fan of his. I just simply said that your method of reasoning with that comment showed that you obviously don't like Kobe. The "If" logic is a general rule of thumb PERIOD for me...regardless of who were talking about. Good attempt though...
I'm not going to respond to everything you said, because it would just be nit-picking insignificant details. I just want address that onecomment you made, specifically the first line. And this is really all I have:
Not once did you express favoritism for Kobe? Not once did you express a pro-Kobe agenda?
Neither did I ever express an anti-Kobe agenda. I was as anti-Kobe in my response as you were pro-Kobe.
And the 'if' argument doesn't necessarily guarantee anti-anything. That might be a general rule of thumb for YOU, but it's not a general ruleof thumb. "If Martin Luther King could run for President today, he would destroy Barack" would be interpreted by you as me knocking Obama, and notsimply expressing my appreciation for MLK, one of my personal all-time heroes? Trust: I'm not anti-Obama in the LEAST, so you assuming as much from myhypothetical statement isn't really the best 'rule of thumb' for you to have.
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I'm not going to respond to everything you said, because it would just be nit-picking insignificant details. I just want address that one comment you made, specifically the first line. And this is really all I have:
Not once did you express favoritism for Kobe? Not once did you express a pro-Kobe agenda?
Neither did I ever express an anti-Kobe agenda. I was as anti-Kobe in my response as you were pro-Kobe.
And the 'if' argument doesn't necessarily guarantee anti-anything. That might be a general rule of thumb for YOU, but it's not a general rule of thumb. "If Martin Luther King could run for President today, he would destroy Barack" would be interpreted by you as me knocking Obama, and not simply expressing my appreciation for MLK, one of my personal all-time heroes? Trust: I'm not anti-Obama in the LEAST, so you assuming as much from my hypothetical statement isn't really the best 'rule of thumb' for you to have.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
You have...on more than one occasion...expressed you're displeasure for Kobe Bryant. No?
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10. Joe Dumars
They must consider Walter Hermann a Small Forward
darthska
Staff member
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^ That's what I'm saying, bro: it's a two-way argument, but you're only seeing one way.
It's either that I'm trying to discredit Kobe, or that I'm trying to appreciate the guys mentioned.
You only see it as an attempt to discredit Kobe, which wouldn't be consistent with my feelings that he is in the company of only one other person in theleague.
Yes, I've expressed my displeasure for Kobe, but it was never about talent. A list like this is about talent, so for a list like this, I can put mydispleasure for him aside and just argue talent, ability, and accomplishment. Putting displeasure aside, I feel like West, Maravich, Iverson (and the alreadymentioned Jordan) go ahead of Kobe... NOT because of my displeasure for Kobe, because displeasure with him has nothing to do with this list.
I take lists like these as lists of careers, not personal preferences and biases.
It's either that I'm trying to discredit Kobe, or that I'm trying to appreciate the guys mentioned.
You only see it as an attempt to discredit Kobe, which wouldn't be consistent with my feelings that he is in the company of only one other person in theleague.
Yes, I've expressed my displeasure for Kobe, but it was never about talent. A list like this is about talent, so for a list like this, I can put mydispleasure for him aside and just argue talent, ability, and accomplishment. Putting displeasure aside, I feel like West, Maravich, Iverson (and the alreadymentioned Jordan) go ahead of Kobe... NOT because of my displeasure for Kobe, because displeasure with him has nothing to do with this list.
I take lists like these as lists of careers, not personal preferences and biases.
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^ You can debate all day. An opinion is an opinion and who knows how good Pistol would be today. I can't really argue the Iverson thing to much eitherbesides the Rings, and that has a lot to due with personel.
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hunh? think about what? Clyde was my dude and was the second best 2 guard in his era, but he had a stacked team year in and year out and he stillwasn't as brilliant a player at the 2 as Chuck was...Yeah, AI shoots a lower shooting percentage, but AI rarely ever had the team infrastructure the otherguys did. And I'm not trying to make any excuses for him, but AI is one of the greatest shooting guards to play the game. Please tell me why you would putClyde over him?
And Reggie IS NOT BETTER than Ray Allen. This is a fact. I watch Reggie play almost his entire career and the man could drain the three and had goodoff the ball movement. That's pretty much his whole game.
J
jawnstockton
Guest
The only time he was ever appreciated. Ever.
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Joe Dumars has absolutely no place on that list.
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Naw man Mitch got named to two All NBA 2nd Teams and three All NBA 3rd Teams
Never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting though
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Never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting though
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I know that Joe Dumars wasn't half the player that David Thompson was. Championships or not.
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I agree, it's always tricky to bring the IF logic in because we have to simply go by what we see. I dont really agree with Ska's opinion on this one (especially Maravich, who's knees gave out well before his prime was over) but he does have a somewhat valid point though (if Im reading into it right). Kobe is an all timer because of who he is and what he has done. However he may be #2 on this list already because of certain circumstances. It's at least debatable. But again it is the what-if game and ya it's tricky.
There is no IF logic because IF didn't happen. IT happened. Kobe did play with Shaq, and he was very successful. It would be pointless to harpon the IF logic. IF my mother would have slept with Wilt Chamberlain I could possibly be a 6'7" combo guard in the League. But she didn't andI'm not so why bring it up? Instead I am a 6' 1" combo guard who maxed out as a D2 role player. I am not going to debate someone who wants to useIF logic as a basis for there argument.
One question I have is, why are so many people quick to discredit Kobe because he played with Shaq? I mean if you wanna take it there... Jerry West did not winhis championship until Wilt got there... and that only after playing with Wilt for about 4-5 years. Oh by the way, he also had the help from another Hall ofFamer, Gail Goodrich. MJ played with a top 50 player(Scottie), the best rebounder and arguably the best defender ever(Rodman), GREAT shooters (Hodges, Kerr,Paxson), arguably the best European player ever in his prime (Kucoc), and had the best coach in the history of the game(Jackson).
Now should these players accomplishments be tarnished because they played with great players??? Of course not. So why is Kobe's? Beacuase Kobe didn'texactly fall off when Shaq left.
Good for them. But that's the beauty of 'difference'; we don't all have to share the same opinions of 'decorated NBA sports writers'.
• Henry Abbott, TrueHoop (HA)
• J.A. Adande, ESPN.com (JA)
• Greg Anthony, ESPN (GA)
• Jon Barry, ESPN (JB)
• Chris Broussard, ESPN The Magazine (CB)
• Ric Bucher, ESPN The Magazine (RB)
• Jemele Hill, ESPN.com Page 2 (JHi)
• John Hollinger, ESPN.com (JH)
• Mark Jackson, ESPN (MJ)
• Scoop Jackson, ESPN.com Page 2 (SJ)
• Tim Legler, ESPN (TL)
• Carlos Morales, ESPN Deportes (CM)
• Chris Palmer, ESPN The Magazine (CP)
• Chris Ramsay, ESPN.com (CR)
• Jack Ramsay, ESPN (JR)
• Jalen Rose, ESPN (JRo)
• Chris Sheridan, ESPN.com (CS)
• Bill Simmons, ESPN.com Page 2 (BS)
• Marc Stein, ESPN.com (MS)
• David Thorpe, Scouts Inc. (DT)
While I respect your "opinion", we are talking about former NBA players as well as a Hall of Fame Coach. I hate to use the saying "gamerecognize game," but its the truth. I am sure if you polled more past and present NBA players they would agree KOBE is top 2 also.
