ESPN chooses their Top 10 Greatest Shooting Guards of all time

[23mcpizzle23]

1. Kobe 2. MJ 3. Dr. J 4. Miller 5. West

 

[acidicality]

1. Kobe 2. MJ
Word?

 

[N41D]

Originally Posted by ESPN

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. George Gervin
5. Allen Iverson
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Reggie Miller
8. Pete Maravich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Joe Dumars

Give me Logo over Bean. I don't have much an issue with the rest of the list...

Yes, Reggie is better than Ray Allen. I probably slide him behind Pistol and Earl, but he's in the top 10.

I might jump Sam Jones over Dumars, but there's not much a complaint there.

NikeTalk will love this...

Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).
Dwyane Wade is already the 12th best SG of all-time, ESPN sportswriters?

OK.

Mitch Richmond getting only 1 vote is a little strange...

 

[sstutter]

Dr. J is more of a SF.

 

[darthska]

^ Exactly, Nowitness.

See what I'm saying, Classy Freshman? These dudes already have Wade as the 12th best ever... EVER. C'mon, man.

Jack Ramsay has forgotten more basketball than I have ever known, but that still doesn't change the fact that we all get to have our own opinions.

It's like you're expecting me to go, "Well, yeah... I see what you're saying. They're former players and coaches and what not, so myopinions should just be exactly what they say."

 

[downtown43]

One question I have is, why are so many people quick to discredit Kobe because he played with Shaq? I mean if you wanna take it there... Jerry West did not win his championship until Wilt got there... and that only after playing with Wilt for about 4-5 years. Oh by the way, he also had the help from another Hall of Famer, Gail Goodrich. MJ played with a top 50 player(Scottie), the best rebounder and arguably the best defender ever(Rodman), GREAT shooters (Hodges, Kerr, Paxson), arguably the best European player ever in his prime (Kucoc), and had the best coach in the history of the game(Jackson).

good post. i hear stuff like that that way too often on here.

there tends to be a general sentiment on here that MJ won all of his championships by himself. people won't just come out and say it outright, but from thestatements people make you can tell that they see it that way. its just not true.

the Bulls were SICK. realize that they would should have made the FINALS without MJ. the truth is that Jordan couldn't have won close to six championships without that great team. most NTersbelieve he was God, but guess what? without, i wont even mention the whole team, without Pippen alone, his career would have looked a lot more human than itdid.

not knocking MJ. actually he probably still would have been considered the GOAT if he had just won maybe one or two. his career average was already #1 in NBAhistory before the year when he won, and he was pretty much considered the most amazing guy to step on the court.

i'm just saying, if you discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq, discredit MJ for playing with one of the best supporting casts in league history. don'tsay "Kobe had Shaq" and then say something like "MJ willed himself to six championships on his own"

 

[g00nie goo goo]

Jerry West did have the same career as Kobe, has anyone here forgotten that he played with BOTH Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain?

 

[grittyman20]

Even though I don't completely understand how he calculates this stuff....Hollinger's PER rankings

01 Jordan 15 Years 30.1 PPG 6.2 RPG 5.3 APG 27.9 PER
02 Bryant 12 Years 24.9 PPG 5.3RPG 4.6 APG 23.6 PER
03 West 14 Years 27.0 PPG 5.8RPG 6.7 APG 22.9 PER
04 Gervin 14 Years 25.1 PPG 5.3RPG 2.6 APG 21.4 PER
05 Iverson 12 Years 27.8 PPG 3.8RPG 6.3 APG 21.5 PER
06 Drexler 15 Years 20.4 PPG 6.1RPG 5.6 APG 21.1 PER
07 Miller 18 Years 18.2 PPG 3.0RPG 3.0 APG 18.4 PER
08 Maravich 10 Years 24.2 PPG 4.2RPG 5.4 APG 18.4 PER
09 Monroe 13 Years 18.8 PPG 3.0RPG 3.9 APG 17.2 PER
10 Dumars 14 Years 16.1 PPG 2.2RPG 4.5 APG 15.3 PER

 

[shuges]

Logo should definitely be over Dirty Snake.

To paraphrase Jay-Z: Catch up fellas!

How you win Finals MVP when your team LOST?? That's how much Clutch bust dat %$*. The L adopted his likeness as their logo for crying out loud.

Throwing Hiss at number 2 is premature imo.

But when you look at some of the people who compiled this list, it's a complete JOKE and I'm not surprised at the results.

Greg Anthony gave votes for Reggie Miller and Drexler but none for AI? Not a SINGLE vote from Greg for AI??

Tim Legler really has Joe D over AI?

Dr Jack Ramsay also had no votes for AI?

Jemele really thinks Reggie was a better 2 guard than Drex?

Sheridan truly believes that Pistol was better than Jerry West??

Again, this list is a complete JOKE. Word to Zodogg.

 

[sstutter]

I would take West, Maravich, and Iverson over Kobe.

Any day.

All day.

Every time you ask me.

Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had... playing with one of the league's top 5 centers ever for like 8 years ('96-'97 to '03-'04, right?) and one of the top 3 coaches of all time, and they would at LEAST do what Kobe has done; I think they would do better, though.

Key word is "give." Reality is, they didn't have the same career as Kobe. How is it that Penny and Wade couldn't win three straighttitles with "one of the league's top 5 centers"? And T-Mac?

"Give" Kobe the career that West had, and I guarantee you that he would've led the team to more than 1 ring in 9 Finals appearances. Face it;West wouldn't even make the All-NBA 5th team in today's league.

 

[sohi 23]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

One question I have is, why are so many people quick to discredit Kobe because he played with Shaq? I mean if you wanna take it there... Jerry West did not win his championship until Wilt got there... and that only after playing with Wilt for about 4-5 years. Oh by the way, he also had the help from another Hall of Famer, Gail Goodrich. MJ played with a top 50 player(Scottie), the best rebounder and arguably the best defender ever(Rodman), GREAT shooters (Hodges, Kerr, Paxson), arguably the best European player ever in his prime (Kucoc), and had the best coach in the history of the game(Jackson).

good post. i hear stuff like that that way too often on here.

there tends to be a general sentiment on here that MJ won all of his championships by himself. people won't just come out and say it outright, but from the statements people make you can tell that they see it that way. its just not true.

the Bulls were SICK. realize that they would should have made the FINALS without MJ. the truth is that Jordan couldn't have won close to six championships without that great team. most NTers believe he was God, but guess what? without, i wont even mention the whole team, without Pippen alone, his career would have looked a lot more human than it did.

not knocking MJ. actually he probably still would have been considered the GOAT if he had just won maybe one or two. his career average was already #1 in NBA history before the year when he won, and he was pretty much considered the most amazing guy to step on the court.

i'm just saying, if you discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq, discredit MJ for playing with one of the best supporting casts in league history. don't say "Kobe had Shaq" and then say something like "MJ willed himself to six championships on his own"

Hit the nail on the head.
The year MJ was gone, the Bulls team had a legit chance at winning the chip with Scottie as the leader.
IDK why people discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq.

 

[bullsrepeat3peat]

Face it; West wouldn't even make the All-NBA 5th team in today's league.

 

[jblackcat13]

Originally Posted by sStutter

I would take West, Maravich, and Iverson over Kobe.

Any day.

All day.

Every time you ask me.

Give Maravich, Iverson, or West the EXACT career Kobe has had... playing with one of the league's top 5 centers ever for like 8 years ('96-'97 to '03-'04, right?) and one of the top 3 coaches of all time, and they would at LEAST do what Kobe has done; I think they would do better, though.

Key word is "give." Reality is, they didn't have the same career as Kobe. How is it that Penny and Wade couldn't win three straight titles with "one of the league's top 5 centers"? And T-Mac?

"Give" Kobe the career that West had, and I guarantee you that he would've led the team to more than 1 ring in 9 Finals appearances. Face it; West wouldn't even make the All-NBA 5th team in today's

Penny years=Better teams in the league...injuries for Penny.

Wade years=One championship...Shaq getting older and lazier.

 

[grittyman20]

Greg Anthony gave votes for Reggie Miller and Drexler but none for AI? Not a SINGLE vote from Greg for AI??

This is why..

Tim Legler really has Joe D over AI?

While AI was clearly a better offensive player, Joe D might very well have been a more all around player..

Finals MVP
4x NBA All 1st team defense
6x NBA All Star

 

[RyGuy45]

Face it; West wouldn't even make the All-NBA 5th team in today's league.

Come on man

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Greg Anthony gave votes for Reggie Miller and Drexler but none for AI? Not a SINGLE vote from Greg for AI??

This is why..

Tim Legler really has Joe D over AI?

While AI was clearly a better offensive player, Joe D might very well have been a more all around player..

Finals MVP
4x NBA All 1st team defense
6x NBA All Star

Ah yes...

... that might explain Greg's hate.

And don't get me wrong, Joe D was a complete player. But AI is a franchise player (not to say that Joe D couldn't have been one if there wasno Zeke, Laimbeer, etc). What AI has done (is doing!) with defenses keyed to stop him and ONLY him is incredible though. So I definitely have him ahead of Joe.

AI and West (stats-wise [27.8 ppg 6.3 apg to 27.0 ppg 6.7 apg] and size-wise [6'0 165 to 6'2 175) are very similar. Of course, Jerry was a bettershooter. Which is why I wouldn't put AI over him. West also led the L in assists. And was part of the 33 game win streak too. He also shares with AI thatwillingness to play through pain.

Equally legendary was West's tolerance for pain. Not blessed with great size, strength, or dribbling ability, West made up for these deficiencies with pure hustle and an apparent lack of regard for his body. He broke his nose at least nine times. On more than one occasion West had to be helped to the court before games in which he ultimately scored 30 or 40 points.

Like I said, dudes talking about Jerry West wouldn't make ALL-NBA need to catch up on your history!

 

[downtown43]

Equally legendary was West's tolerance for pain. Not blessed with great size, strength, or dribbling ability, West made up for these deficiencies with pure hustle and an apparent lack of regard for his body. He broke his nose at least nine times. On more than one occasion West had to be helped to the court before games in which he ultimately scored 30 or 40 points.

fail. name one player on any All-NBA team since 1984 that doesn't have one of those characteristics.

there isn't. here's the list so you can see for yourself:

http://www.nba.com/history/awards_allnba

not saying he wasn't good, but that just proves that West wouldn't hold up in today's NBA or in MJs era either.

 

[karmex]

I like when people overrate older players like you've ever seenthem play. Abbreviated espn classic joints do not count.

 

[scottsauce88]

I like when people overrate older players like you've ever seen them play. Abbreviated espn classic joints do not count.
exactly what I was thinking. Its like when there are the best centers ever discussion and everyone votes Bill Russell. You know you havent seenhis @*@ play except on ESPN classic. You know the game is completely different now then it was then. You are able to look up stats and heard a bunch of coolstories so that player is automatically better even though you never saw him play. Bottomline is, the game is different today than it was back then. What wasamazing back then is normal now and what was expected back then is rare now.

It's apples to oranges with throwing in a bunch of theoretical situations.

"Oh, give AI, West, or Maravich Kobe's team and the do just as much and more".

"Ahhh, take Kobe off those three championship teams and they don't win"

We will never know these things and it is impossible to compare. Each player peaked at almost a completely different point in time and the game continuallychanges.

 

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by Karmex

I like when people overrate older players like you've ever seen them play. Abbreviated espn classic joints do not count.

people just like to feel intelligent by bringing up somebody most people don't know/care about and saying "tsk tsk, read up on your history".its always pretty funny

 

[true 3 blue]

Originally Posted by here 4 tha kickz

Originally Posted by Officer Andre

Can someone convince me that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen?

HE DID NOT BEAT US AS MUCH AS POPULAR BELIEF

Just had to let people know....

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Equally legendary was West's tolerance for pain. Not blessed with great size, strength, or dribbling ability, West made up for these deficiencies with pure hustle and an apparent lack of regard for his body. He broke his nose at least nine times. On more than one occasion West had to be helped to the court before games in which he ultimately scored 30 or 40 points.

fail. name one player on any All-NBA team since 1984 that doesn't have one of those characteristics.

there isn't. here's the list so you can see for yourself:

http://www.nba.com/history/awards_allnba

not saying he wasn't good, but that just proves that West wouldn't hold up in today's NBA or in MJs era either.
Fail? Hardly.

In 35 years, if/when athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, smarter than the dudes of today, are you gonna penalize MJ or LeBron or Mamba for not being able to"hold up" to the players of that future era too?

Come on man... West did what he did and dominated. Period. Don't try to take away from that.

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by Karmex

I like when people overrate older players like you've ever seen them play. Abbreviated espn classic joints do not count.

people just like to feel intelligent by bringing up somebody most people don't know/care about and saying "tsk tsk, read up on your history". its always pretty funny

Obviously, I wasn't around to see West play. Never pretended to be. But if you start arguing in posts like this, the least you can do is know SOME of thehistory of the game. From when I was younger, I wanted to know who Jerry West was and why he was chosen as "the Logo". So I read up on him. As theinternet era came about, I was able to learn more. And with cable, I was actually able to SEE him play.

You noticed I didn't mention any of the others. No Iceman. No Pearl. So I'm far from trying to come off as a know it all. I only speak on what I knowyoung buck.

Only you and others who don't know the history of the game would find what I said about Jerry West as "funny".

 

[true 3 blue]

Others receiving votes (points): Sam Jones (31), Dwyane Wade (23), Hal Greer (19), David Thompson (14), Bill Sharman (9), Dave Bing (6), Tracy McGrady (5), Sidney Moncrief (5), Manu Ginobili (4), Ray Allen (3), Paul Arizin (2), Vince Carter (2), Dennis Johnson (1), Gail Goodrich (1), Drazen Petrovic (1), Mitch Richmond (1), Jimmy Walker (1).
Amazing.

Originally Posted by Karmex

I like when people overrate older players like you've ever seen them play. Abbreviated espn classic joints do not count.

THANK YOU.

 

[darthska]

It's going to be fun listening to Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Shaq, Kidd, T-Mac, and Chris Paul fans about 20 years from now.

Well, not ALL fans of those players; JUUUST the ones that are CURRENTLY saying 'Hey, don't tell me about West; you never saw him play.' It'sgoing to be fun eavesdropping on you guys as you try to drop knowledge on people about your favorite player, and how you saw him play and he was phenomenal.And then they tell you 'Man, that's cool, but _______ would school your boy LeBron.' And you laugh and go, 'Nope. Sorry.'

See, what you SHOULD say at that point would be 'Well, I guess you feel that way because you never saw my dude LeBron play. But since you didn't,I'm just going to have to leave this argument alone.'

But you're not going to do that; you're going to keep expecting this person listen to your rants about this phenomenal player that they never saw.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[iminchucks5]

they got 1 and 2 right

jordan in my eyes will always be the greatest SG and player of all time