ESPN chooses their Top 10 Greatest Shooting Guards of all time

[true 3 blue]

Originally Posted by Cyprus Sinner II

ok, so what was watching West's 1972 season like, chief????

Wow.

So let me get this straight, are you implying that it's necessary to see every game in every season a player's ever played to have a valid opinion on that player's ability?

I swear I hate when people do this stupid *@$@.

Did he say u need to watch every game in every season a player has ever played in to have a valid opinion on that player's ability? Stop reachin

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by Classy Freshman

Forget all the Nostalgia...

Kobe>The Logo

First of all Jerry West's rookie season there were only 8 teams in the NBA. By the time his career was over, there were only 16.

Lets also take into consideration a lot talent like DR J, Connie Hawkins, George Gervin, David Thompson etc. were playing in the ABA during Jerry West's prime.

So Jerry West was playing in an at best 16 team league that arguably didn't even have the best talent of the time.

Now today, we have the NBA, CBA, NBDL, very competitive EURO Leagues, and great basketball being played all around the world. The amount of preparation todays players put into basketball is broken down into a science where everything about a player is micro-managed. You have dieting, weight training, all kind of camps, medicine, etc. The talent pool and level of competition today is miles ahead of the talent pool in Jerry West's era. The margin for era and skill level is so slim from player to player today. And for a player like Kobe to excel the way he has in this era, is way more impressive than Jerry West's achievements in his.

See, that's a good argument right there.

But it can also be said (and often is) that the game is very much watered down today BECAUSE we have so many different outlets/leagues. A good portion of theplayers playing today couldn't hang with the players of yester-year because they FUNDAMENTALLY suck! Sure, they are freaks of nature. But if you can'tharness that ability, what good is it?

edit:

West was not more skilled as an individual than Kobe, but there's more factors to winning championships than just physical skills...
Yep. Pretty much what I just said.

 

[scottsauce88]

Wow.

So let me get this straight, are you implying that it's necessary to see every game in every season a player's ever played to have a valid opinion on that player's ability?
no, im not saying that at all. In fact I havent seen all of the Lakers games this year so I wouldnt expect you to see all of his. All im sayingis this. When you watch clips of great players on ESPN classic they are probably on there for a certain reason, because they most likely had an amazing game. So if you watch 5 clips of the same player who had amazing games, wouldnt you just assume their whole career is like that?

All im saying is in order to say one person is greater than another you should have at least seen that player play on a consistent basis. A consistent basisdoesn't mean every game, it just means seeing their UPS and their DOWNS

 

[downtown43]

also regarding Wilt, the more i hear about Wilt's 100 performance, the less impressed i am with it.

i saw something where they interviewed an old sportswriter who was in attendance when Wilt dropped 100, and he said the whole thing was so cheap and fraudulent

his teammates had determined together before the game to get him 100 points. first of all, the guy guarding him was 6'6 and he was a 7-footer. every timethey came down the court, they would just give him the ball. even if someone had a wide open lay-up, they would purposely not take it and pass to Wilt. towardsthe end when time was running out for him to reach 100, they started fouling players on the other team so they could stop the clock and get the ball back forhim to get 100. and they were up by 20

that $%%! is bush league

 

[scottsauce88]

I'm not sure what he's trying to say.

That's why I'm asking for clarification.
gotcha, I just thought you were trying to be a prick with some of your sarcastic comments such as the motion picture comment, but its allcool

 

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by SHUGES

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

I don't think I needed to "see" this guy play to know that he was good.

NO ONE SAID HE IS NOT GOOD

but you are using his numbers only to say he was better than Kobe. you can use his numbers to prove that he was good, but you CANNOT use his numbers alone to say he is better than someone who is playing/played in the modern era.

numbers don't go across eras... do you really believe Wilt was WAY better than Shaq and Kareem as his numbers indicate?

its obvious that there are a lot of inflated numbers from that time period. so you can't just straight up put West's numbers to someone else's without having seen him play.

Hold up, hold up, hold up....

I don't feel like scrolling back, but you're saying that numbers don't go across eras right?

That's the same damn thing I was trying to say when you (or someone else) said that because of West's lack of size and poor dribble ability, he wouldn't match up with today's players! I was like "West dominated for that time so don't take away from him". He was crushing the L (numbers-wise) as a little man. He played in the same era as Wilt, O, Baylor, Russell, etc. He did his thing BACK THEN. So I'm not saying he'd still do his thing now. Never said that.

And NOW you're saying "numbers don't go across eras?"

I just picked West over Beanhead b/c West proved that he could dominate for HIS time. He did it longer and more consistently than Beanhead has been doing it now.

Shaq is a freak. Is he better than Wilt? I can't speak on that cuz I really haven't seen much of Wilt at all. I know that he played against smaller opponents but that's about it. On the flip side, Shaq played when the rules of the game changed. So I don't know.

Good debate by all. (Except the 24 dude).

okay then. it appeared that you were saying Jerry West was a better basketball player than Kobe, as if he would be better than Kobe if he played today, andthats what i was arguing. but if you were just saying that West was more dominant in his era than Kobe was, then okay.

 

[goldenarmz97]

West was not more skilled as an individual than Kobe, but there's more factors to winning championships than just physical skills...
Yep. Pretty much what I just said.
Kobe's 3 > Jerry's 1 & please don't bring up supporting casts...

 

[haiti5]

how the hell yall sayin the logo was better than mike...that doesnt even make any sense. but ill admit its arguable, however........

i dont see maravich over kobe tho in any way shape or form being argued

 

[tupac003]

Originally Posted by 24 K B 8

It's one person' s opinion so chill there son....

I understand its your opinion but its got to be one of the worst opinion's I have ever heard in my entire life.

I am a fan of kobe but to say that one 81 point game makes him better then MJ is just plain STUPID! I have watched the NBA since 82 and I have seen just abouteverything jordan did. Trust me son...he is better then kobe.

Hell one of these friday nights go rent some old nba vids. You can see why the logo should be number 2 on the list. Oh but the bee movie just came out on dvdso you might want to go watch that instead. We wouldn't want to you get worked up before bed time.

 

[classy freshman]

But it can also be said (and often is) that the game is very much watered down today BECAUSE we have so many different outlets/leagues. A good portion of the players playing today couldn't hang with the players of yester-year because they FUNDAMENTALLY suck! Sure, they are freaks of nature. But if you can't harness that ability, what good is it?
And that is the difference between Michael Jordan and a Harold Miner, a Tracy McGrady and a James White, a Dwayne Wade and a Joseph Forte. Allplayers mentioned have freakish athletic ability, but the difference between them is the fundamentals were mastered by better players. The game today in myopinion is NOT watered down. It is better than its ever been. The amount of GREAT players today who cannot make an NBA roster is a testament of greatbasketball players have become.

 

[scottsauce88]

Allen Iverson is in the league now, I've seen him play well, I've seen him play poorly.

But, I never watched a full, complete game he played in his rookie year and the games I saw him play as a 76er I don't remember and couldn't tell you what he did.

Even today, I sure as hell don't watch him play on a 'consistent' basis.

If I had to guess, I'd say I've probably watched less than 10 complete games he's ever played in, less than 20 other partial games (that I've turned off early or turned on after its already started), but I've seen tons of highlights on ESPN and tons of highlights on the internet.

Yet, I can say with confidence that he is a great player and in my opinion he would belong on the list of top 10 SGs of all time, because it really doesn't take THAT much to judge a player.

And that much IS available of Jerry West, so it's completely possible for someone born today to accurately judge his abilities if they watch that material 20 years from now.

For some reason you seem to believe that's not possible, and that no one can accurately judge his talent because they haven't seen him play 'on a consistent basis'.
show me once where I have said that Jerry West wasn't a great player. The entire time Ive argued, all I have stated is in order to clear-cutsay one player is greater than another, you should at least see that player on a consistent basis, but not one time have I said that West isn't good or hedoesn't belong in the top 10.

Even then, if you don't watch Iverson play today, what the hell is going to make me think that you go out of your way to watch Jerry West clips that aremuch harder to come by?????????

 

[grittyman20]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

also regarding Wilt, the more i hear about Wilt's 100 performance, the less impressed i am with it.

i saw something where they interviewed an old sportswriter who was in attendance when Wilt dropped 100, and he said the whole thing was so cheap and fraudulent

his teammates had determined together before the game to get him 100 points. first of all, the guy guarding him was 6'6 and he was a 7-footer. every time they came down the court, they would just give him the ball. even if someone had a wide open lay-up, they would purposely not take it and pass to Wilt. towards the end when time was running out for him to reach 100, they started fouling players on the other team so they could stop the clock and get the ball back for him to get 100. and they were up by 20

that $%%! is bush league

The guy guarding him was a dude named Darrall Imhoff. He was 6'10
Link
Also, every game that I've seen where a dude was CLOSE to setting some sort of personal scoring record their teammates continued to force feed them theball...

As far as fouling to get the ball back, it goes both ways because apparently the opposing team was fouling everyone but Wilt to put his teammates on theline and prevent him from scoring.

However, according to all eye-witnesses, the game became a farce. Fearing ultimate humiliation if Chamberlain scored 100 points on them, the Knicks blindly fouled any Warrior except Chamberlain, to force them to hit free throws and keep the ball out of the center's hands.Effectively, they played the opposite of what a normal club would do if they faced a deficit, willingly giving up many easy points instead of making attempts to rally back
I don't care what the circumstances, a 100 points is a 100 points. I do think that Kobe's 81 might have been more impressive because hedid it at the guard position, but to discredit that scoring record is just ridiculous

 

[downtown43]

The guy guarding him was a dude named Darrall Imhoff. He was 6'10

Imhoff only played 20 minutes and eventually fouled out:

Knicks center Darrall Imhoff was branded as the player who let Chamberlain score 100 on him, although he only played 20 minutes and fouled out in the fourth quarter

he was mostly being guarded by this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Budd

As far as fouling to get the ball back, it goes both ways because apparently the opposing team was fouling everyone but Wilt to put his teammates on the line and prevent him from scoring.

yeah, but its even more childish for the coach of the other team to start doing it himself, especially when the game was already in hand.

i wasn't discrediting his scoring. obviously he was good enough to be able to score the 100 points with like 5 guys on him each time when they knew he wasgetting it. i was just disappointed in the sportsmanship.

if Kobe had 90 points and the Lakers were up by 20, Phil Jackson would sit him regardless of any record. Wilt had already broken the record at that pointanyways, it was 78 points set by himself and he got it in the 3rd.

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by Scottsauce88

Wow.

So let me get this straight, are you implying that it's necessary to see every game in every season a player's ever played to have a valid opinion on that player's ability?

no, im not saying that at all. In fact I havent seen all of the Lakers games this year so I wouldnt expect you to see all of his. All im saying is this. When you watch clips of great players on ESPN classic they are probably on there for a certain reason, because they most likely had an amazing game. So if you watch 5 clips of the same player who had amazing games, wouldnt you just assume their whole career is like that?

All im saying is in order to say one person is greater than another you should have at least seen that player play on a consistent basis. A consistent basis doesn't mean every game, it just means seeing their UPS and their DOWNS

Good point.

But sometimes they show games where they are highlighting a player from one team and you get to see another player on the opposite team not do so well. So youin essence do see those "down" games for these "great" players.

Jordan's 69 point game against the Cavs? Pippen scored 7 points and had 8 turnovers.

okay then. it appeared that you were saying Jerry West was a better basketball player than Kobe, as if he would be better than Kobe if he played today, and thats what i was arguing. but if you were just saying that West was more dominant in his era than Kobe was, then okay.

No doubt.
And I agree with you that it's more difficult to judge a player who you've never seen play to one who you HAVE watched on a regular basis (though notimpossible).

Kobe's 3 > Jerry's 1 & please don't bring up supporting casts...

True.
Mamba/Shaq's 3 was against what dominant team though? Pacers? Sixers? Nets?

While West had to run up against that monster Celtic dynasty where Boston won the chip 11 times in 13 seasons.

West was lucky to even get one it seems.

edit:
And everything Sinner just said.

 

[kobefan23]

yes, but to say with absolutely certainty that a player is as good or better than another without actually seeing one of them play is just as rediculous. Im sorry Ska, but you werent even born when West RETIRED, so I dont see how you can say you give West this and this player he will win just as much as Kobe. Im not arguing one or the other because I havent seen West play, all I have is media articles and hoopedia stats and bios. I dont know what West's strengths are since I have never seen him in person. To know someones weaknesses you have to actually see someone play to see why that is a weakness.
Exactly. Ska...that's where your argument doesnt work with respect to..."20 years from now you guys will all be saying Kobe/LBJ/CP3 werebetter than the players of the future..."...the difference is we will have SEEN with our own eyes the careers of these guys as our BASIS for why we thinkthey might be better than Player A/B in the future. If you've legit seen a great deal of Jerry West (which I honestly don't know how much footage/etc.exists), than your point is valid and my mistake. I'm not going to try to compare Kobe/West because I didnt see West play. If you want to make astatistical argument about "West's stats for his era are better than Kobe's in his era", that's fine. But you weren't using astatistical argument cross-eras, rather hypotheticals.

 

[shuges]

if Kobe had 90 points and the Lakers were up by 20, Phil Jackson would sit him regardless of any record
I'm gonna let someone else jump on that one.

 

[true 3 blue]

No he wouldn't, and neither would Kobe. He'd want to break it.

 

[downtown43]

if you think its funny that i used Kobe, i'm not d-riding. i just used him because he's come the closest to 100 since Wilt.

 

[roscoe p wallace]

This thread is absolutely spiraling out of control

. Top 10 shooting guards all time thread has now become the "Who was the 1962-63 NY Knicks 3rd string center Vol: Was he OVER 6'6"?" Thread.

 

[scottsauce88]

1. If people are going to question someone's opinion that Jerry West was great, because they've only seen highlights of him; How are they going to form an opinion that Jerry West wasn't great if they've only seen highlights, or nothing at all?
A) Once again, I have not ONE, not a single god damn time questioned his greatness, I just said it is damn hard to say one person is better thananother when they haven't seen one player play. Why in the blue hell do you think people honestly say Kobe is better than Jordan, because they have neverseen Jordan play on a consistent basis.

2. It is possible to have seen Jerry West play.


B) it is, you just either have to be old as balls to see him play, or you have probably seen highlights of him doing damn good.

3. It is possible to have seen enough footage of Jerry West, to form an opinion on his ability.
im not saying you cant form an opinion, im just saying it is damn near impossible to say which player is better because there is so little footageof West.

5. You don't have to watch two players on a consistent basis to compare them to one another. (For example, I don't watch Manu Ginobili play on a consistent basis but, I know he's a better player than Matt Carroll, who I don't watch on a consistent basis.)
awesome, you can compare a bench player to Ginobili. An analogy would work here, but it is people like you who havent watched certain peopleplay and just assume they are better. Look at the Kobe fanboy just running rampant in this thread, it is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Unlessyou actually lived in the time it is damn hard to get an indicator of whether or not one person is better than the other because the time was different, therules were different, the players were different, and the way the game was played was different.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by true 3 blue

Whoever you think of, Jordan averaged more points per game than the person you think of.

WRONG

[table][tr][td]1. Michael Jordan[/td] [td]1,072[/td] [td]12,192[/td] [td]7,327[/td] [td]32,292[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1. Wilt Chamberlain[/td] [td]1,045[/td] [td]12,681[/td] [td]6,057[/td] [td]31,419[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][/table]

Nice try, but you're wrong. MJ has a higher scoring average than Wilt.

Michael Jordan: 30.12313 ppg
Wilt Chamberlain: 30.06602 ppg

 

[wstcoastgotti]

Top 10 shooting guards all time thread has now become the "Who was the 1962-63 NY Knicks 3rd string center Vol: Was he OVER 6'6"?" Thread.

 

[true 3 blue]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by true 3 blue

Whoever you think of, Jordan averaged more points per game than the person you think of.

WRONG

[table][tr][td]1. Michael Jordan[/td] [td]1,072[/td] [td]12,192[/td] [td]7,327[/td] [td]32,292[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1. Wilt Chamberlain[/td] [td]1,045[/td] [td]12,681[/td] [td]6,057[/td] [td]31,419[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [/tr][/table]

Nice try, but you're wrong. MJ has a higher scoring average than Wilt.

Michael Jordan: 30.12313 ppg
Wilt Chamberlain: 30.06602 ppg



um, guy go report that to nba.com

i really could care less. and if u wanna be technical, he played like 30 more games than Jordan which Wilt would haveeasily eclipsed if he had played as much as [Wilbon] YA BOY [/Wilbon] did....

 

[fyalady]

kobe should've been no.3 as of right now.
ai can be higher too.

 

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