**2012-13 "Gentlemanly" NBA PG Discussion Thread**

[ripc]

Rondo had his 2nd straight triple-double tonight.

I personally could not give less of a **** seeing as we lost our 6th game in a row, but still.

 

[MajinZuub]

It's between Rondo and Paul for me right now.

 

[Trillmatic90]

How you guys have westbrook as a top 3 pg is beyond me. He's a great player, but not a great pg. Paul, Deron, Rondo, Parker, and Nash are all better pure pg's.

 

[awwsome]

How you guys have westbrook as a top 3 pg is beyond me. He's a great player, but not a great pg. Paul, Deron, Rondo, Parker, and Nash are all better pure pg's.

They are more "pure" but that doesn't mean they are necessarily better/more productive. Russ is busting any of those dudes *** not named CP3 any night, he's only been playing the point since getting to the L so of course he's not a pure point guard but he's a nightmare for everyone of those guys you mentioned and is perfect for his team.

 

[mertonhanks]

Chris Paul is one of the best pgs in Nba history.

Been saying this since guy was on the Hornets. Guy is too complete, even at Wake Forest you could see the Greatness

 

[Trillmatic90]

They are more "pure" but that doesn't mean they are necessarily better/more productive. Russ is busting any of those dudes *** not named CP3 any night, he's only been playing the point since getting to the L so of course he's not a pure point guard but he's a nightmare for everyone of those guys you mentioned and is perfect for his team.

I agree with you. I think he's a better player than all those guys, except Paul, but not a better pure pg. A pure pg is someone who facilitates the offense and gets the team involved on every possession. If you look at those players, you automatically know that they excel in these things more than Westbrook because they are better pg's.

Like I said, I think Westbrook is a better player than those guys (not Paul though), but he's not a better pg per se.

 

[big j 33]

He's a point guard. If he's a better player then he's a better point guard because that's his position. Doesn't matter how you define it.

 

[Trillmatic90]

He's a point guard. If he's a better player then he's a better point guard because that's his position. Doesn't matter how you define it.

Not really. I think he's a better overall basketball player because he's better at things like creating his own shot, exploding to the rim, drawing fouls, playing defense.

As far as point guard skills go though, the guys I listed are better because they focus and excel solely at traditional point guard duties, making them better suited for that position.

Westbrook to me is an undersized shooting guard that plays the point guard position. Think about it like this, Kobe is a better player than Parker, but Parker makes a better point guard than Kobe.

 

[JD617]

1. Paul

2. Parker

3. Westbrook

 

[nooera]

Honestly watching the Celtics this season.. after that performance in the east conference finals... Rondo has dissapointed this far this season. Yes he's been playing great but hes supposed to be the leader of this team and it just doesnt look like he embracing the role on the court. Passing up layups so he can look backwards and throw up alley oops This aint lob city and Brandon Bass is not Blake Griffin. Also, he needs to start saying **** it more and completely take over games . Just dont pass the rock until completely necessary. Throw up jumpers (he been hitting them strong this year) and drive to the hoop with no damns given . Thats the Rondo that threw up dam near 50 while also going 12 and 8 or something outlandish like that. These 10-10-10 type triple doubles arent that impressive to me. I expect more out of this dude.

 

[big j 33]

He's a point guard. If he's a better player then he's a better point guard because that's his position. Doesn't matter how you define it.

Not really. I think he's a better overall basketball player because he's better at things like creating his own shot, exploding to the rim, drawing fouls, playing defense.

As far as point guard skills go though, the guys I listed are better because they focus and excel solely at traditional point guard duties, making them better suited for that position.

Westbrook to me is an undersized shooting guard that plays the point guard position. Think about it like this, Kobe is a better player than Parker, but Parker makes a better point guard than Kobe.

Except Kobe plays the 2 and Russ plays the 1. Call it an undersized sg playing point, it doesn't matter. He runs the offense, handles the ball, and is that teams point guard. No one considers Kobe a point guard so of course Parker is better.

 

[datznasty]

For all this Russ ain't a pg and doesn't get his teammates involved talk, does anyone know who the top assist combo is (passer/scorer)? How bout 2nd? 3rd?

Hint, look at the % assisted on Ibaka and Kevin Durant.

Russ is the PG on the most offensively efficient unit in the NBA and per 100 possessions, literally one of the best in history. He's not Brevin Knight, no. I, and more importantly Scott Brooks, don't want him to be.

And not even to reignite the debate on who is better, but I fail to see how Rose plays any differently. High usage, lots of points, lots of assists, in fact similar numbers all around with regard to that.

By the way, the top most frequent assist combo in the NBA is Westbrook to Durant, i.e Durant scores more buckets off Westbrook passes (over 1/2 of his baskets are assisted by Westbrook) than anyone else in the NBA, #2 most frequent is Westbrook to Ibaka, #3 is Rondo to KG- or that was the case last time I had those stats available. Give me a second to go get the updated exact #s

 

[Trillmatic90]

For all this Russ ain't a pg and doesn't get his teammates involved talk, does anyone know who the top assist combo is (passer/scorer)? How bout 2nd? 3rd?

Hint, look at the % assisted on Ibaka and Kevin Durant.

Russ is the PG on the most offensively efficient unit in the NBA and per 100 possessions, literally one of the best in history. He's not Brevin Knight, no. I, and more importantly Scott Brooks, don't want him to be.

And not even to reignite the debate on who is better, but I fail to see how Rose plays any differently. High usage, lots of points, lots of assists, in fact similar numbers all around with regard to that.

By the way, the top most frequent assist combo in the NBA is Westbrook to Durant, i.e Durant scores more buckets off Westbrook passes (over 1/2 of his baskets are assisted by Westbrook) than anyone else in the NBA, #2 most frequent is Westbrook to Ibaka, #3 is Rondo to KG- or that was the case last time I had those stats available. Give me a second to go get the updated exact #s

This is one of the things I dont like about westbrook's game. Every time I watch the thunder it seems like the majority of the time he's either looking for durant or taking a shot himself. I've seen players like martin wide open just shaking their head cause dude is so focused on playing a two man game with durant. I dont know if that's scott brook's coaching system or just a lack of him getting others involved.

 

[pmatic]

Honestly watching the Celtics this season.. after that performance in the east conference finals... Rondo has dissapointed this far this season. Yes he's been playing great but hes supposed to be the leader of this team and it just doesnt look like he embracing the role on the court. Passing up layups so he can look backwards and throw up alley oops This aint lob city and Brandon Bass is not Blake Griffin. Also, he needs to start saying **** it more and completely take over games . Just dont pass the rock until completely necessary. Throw up jumpers (he been hitting them strong this year) and drive to the hoop with no damns given . Thats the Rondo that threw up dam near 50 while also going 12 and 8 or something outlandish like that. These 10-10-10 type triple doubles arent that impressive to me. I expect more out of this dude.

On that note, at least I know Westbrook is going to play hard every night. It's well documented Rondo doesn't always play hard (see the amount of triple doubles Rondo notches in national tv games). Not to mention how Rondo plays for steals and assists at times. But Westbrook is the one that gets the "selfish" label.

 

[big j 33]

But Martin is shooting 43% from three this season and he's making more 3's than ever before. Up from 38% and 34% the last two seasons. That's not a direct result of Westbrook by any means, but it's not like he's suffering with this non-true PG. The offense is elite and he's the PG. 

 

[Trillmatic90]

But Martin is shooting 43% from three this season and he's making more 3's than ever before. Up from 38% and 34% the last two seasons. That's not a direct result of Westbrook by any means, but it's not like he's suffering with this non-true PG. The offense is elite and he's the PG. 

They do have elite offense and he is the pg, but that doesn't mean he's a top 3 pg, it just means that Scott Brooks is good at drawing offensive sets.

Maybe it's because I'm used to traditional pg's that are pass first, like Nash. I dont blame Westbrook cause he played sg at ucla so he's still learning the ins and outs of being a true pg. If he can lower his fga to around 15 and looks to be a pass first pg, than I would say he's top 3 (top 5 depending on how Rose plays when he comes back).

 

[datznasty]

But Martin is shooting 43% from three this season and he's making more 3's than ever before. Up from 38% and 34% the last two seasons. That's not a direct result of Westbrook by any means, but it's not like he's suffering with this non-true PG. The offense is elite and he's the PG. 

They do have elite offense and he is the pg, but that doesn't mean he's a top 3 pg, it just means that Scott Brooks is good at drawing offensive sets.

Maybe it's because I'm used to traditional pg's that are pass first, like Nash. I dont blame Westbrook cause he played sg at ucla so he's still learning the ins and outs of being a true pg. If he can lower his fga to around 15 and looks to be a pass first pg, than I would say he's top 3 (top 5 depending on how Rose plays when he comes back).

at Scott Brooks being great at drawing up offensive sets. Have you ever seen the Thunder play or you just repeating Skip Bayless talking points? All we run is variations of isos, pin downs, and pick and rolls.

Lower his fgas to get more shots for who? We got the best record in the league, 3 going on 4x leading scorer, NBA finals last yr, one of the best teams in the league for now and likely years to come. I wouldn't want him to change his game and what works just to satisfy some subjective expectation of what a true pg is or isn't. If we get another scorer sure, shave off a few shots, but he's one of the best scorers in the league and the last thing I'd want to do is waste that trying to make him Eric Snow. That's not to say he doesn't miss KD open sometimes or take bad shots, but dudes get caught up in that true pg/combo guard stuff too much.

Cp3, Rondo, and who else is above him at this point?

The integration of Kevin Martin into our 4th quarter attacks needs to be addressed though absolutely. Right now, he pretty much just spaces the floor which keeps kD and Russ from being doubled, but 4th quarter 5 minutes or less is going to be KD and Russ 2 man game until it doesn't work for a long time. Brooks takes forever to make adjustments

Heat are the only team that does it, but seems like you could put 3 or 4 defenders on Russ and KD when they handle out top and blow up our entire offense (especially when Perk is in the game), but I guess most teams don't have the athletes or defensive attention to detail to do it.

 

[ill steelo]

They do have elite offense and he is the pg, but that doesn't mean he's a top 3 pg, it just means that Scott Brooks is good at drawing offensive sets. .

Wow.

 

[mustbetheshoe58]

kyrie irving is doing his thing this season, well-deserved to be in the all-star team

 

[abovelegit1]

at Scott Brooks being great at drawing up offensive sets. Have you ever seen the Thunder play or you just repeating Skip Bayless talking points? All we run is variations of isos, pin downs, and pick and rolls.

Lower his fgas to get more shots for who? We got the best record in the league, 3 going on 4x leading scorer, NBA finals last yr, one of the best teams in the league for now and likely years to come. I wouldn't want him to change his game and what works just to satisfy some subjective expectation of what a true pg is or isn't. If we get another scorer sure, shave off a few shots, but he's one of the best scorers in the league and the last thing I'd want to do is waste that trying to make him Eric Snow. That's not to say he doesn't miss KD open sometimes or take bad shots, but dudes get caught up in that true pg/combo guard stuff too much.

Cp3, Rondo, and who else is above him at this point?

The integration of Kevin Martin into our 4th quarter attacks needs to be addressed though absolutely. Right now, he pretty much just spaces the floor which keeps kD and Russ from being doubled, but 4th quarter 5 minutes or less is going to be KD and Russ 2 man game until it doesn't work for a long time. Brooks takes forever to make adjustments

Heat are the only team that does it, but seems like you could put 3 or 4 defenders on Russ and KD when they handle out top and blow up our entire offense (especially when Perk is in the game), but I guess most teams don't have the athletes or defensive attention to detail to do it.

Well said. Saying a player should restrict/reduce their role in an effort to be a better player is just flawed logic. Akin to saying LeBron is any less of a small forward because he plays the role of 3 different positions every game.

I'd say Westbrook is second right now, though Rose will likely have something to say about that. I find Rondo to be a bit overrated. He does some things really well - namely passing and rebounding, but the flaws in his game are apparent. As P-Matic touched on - his defense isn't nearly as great as people assume, his nightly effort is inconsistent, and he can be TO prone at times. But obviously the biggest hole in his game is that he lacks any semblance of a jumpshot, which hampers an offense, and takes away from the value he provides in getting to the basket. He's constantly trying to avoid contact so he won't go to the line, and when he does he makes something like 60% of his foul shots. Still a great player, though.

 

[datznasty]

And even Celtics bloggers have noted the # of questionable assists Rondo gets credited, but that's an old debate and somewhat could derail into a tangent.

Spoiler

"...on top of that ~20 errors per game, you have over double that in intentional errors. By intentional errors, I mean events that never happened ...or events that are awarded to the wrong player. The intentional errors are organizationally sanctioned/encouraged - they increase national media coverage/interest and increase your franchise's and player's visibility. There is also league pressure to protect/enhance the stats of the elite players."- (former NBA scorekeeper)

 

[thenoguy]

This is one of the things I dont like about westbrook's game. Every time I watch the thunder it seems like the majority of the time he's either looking for durant or taking a shot himself. I've seen players like martin wide open just shaking their head cause dude is so focused on playing a two man game with durant. I dont know if that's scott brook's coaching system or just a lack of him getting others involved.

Did you miss the part of the bold text you quoted where Westbrook to Ibaka is the 2nd highest assist combo? Come on now.

 

[S4L]

Not to mention Rose is clearly made of glass. Rondo is tough and consistent. For the next 7-8 years give me Rondo

Yikes.

 

[S4L]

Rose is made of Glass? WTF?

Was I dreaming when Rose tore his ACL ? No timetable for his return ? Hes clearly injury prone. Look at the play he suffered his i jury on Ol Boy didnt even make any drastic movements. He landed on his feet and his acl tore apart.

Glass.

Double Yikes.

 

[seymore cake]

castrated himself just in an attempt to throw Pooh under. Didnt fair too well