should've been questioning it before this show lol ......but I'm not gonna derail this thread
I'm up for readin' some stuff,
Oh they definitely didn't given part of the file involves them targeting Cohle as a top suspect. Now if Rust is still contacting Marty they ****** up in showing him their hand.I don't think Papania and Gilbough let Rust or Hart see the complete file... I can't wait to see how this all unfolds. I think a lot of dudes in there will be disappointed.
Yo when I heard him say that to Rust I straight upMy new favorite quote, “I can see your soul at the edges of your eyes. It’s corrosive, like acid. You have a demon inside, and I don’t like your face. It makes me want to do things to it. if I see you again, I’m putting you down. There’s a shadow in you, son.”
I don't remember if someone shared a link to iO9 who does a nice recap...
http://io9.com/true-detective-takes-us-to-the-void-at-the-center-of-me-1524756707
and then Alonzo gif That was wild. Son was like a grim storyteller and that only foretells doom
Here's the whole thing from the comments section of one of the vids posted on the last page...
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RawheddRexx
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Did anyone notice they broke the 4th wall on last nights episode? The show is far deeper and crazier than most people are picking up on. So far no one seems to have picked up on it yet...Yesterday 5:37pm
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Care to expand? Yesterday 5:44pm
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How far do you want participants to go with discussions? I don't want to ruin things for anyone. Is it ok to bring up the entire under textof an amazingly written show before its over? I'm not with the show but I saw the creators comments and it confirm s what I thought the show was doing. If its ok to potentially spoil the whole beans let me know. Otherwise I'll keep quiet. I will say that Rust's speech about time holds the key to the show... Yesterday 5:52pm
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I was just asking about breaking the 4th wall in last night's episode. When did that happen?Yesterday 5:56pm
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During the time speech. The audience are the observers. Yesterday 5:58pm
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Literally. Yesterday 5:59pm
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That's not really breaking the 4th wall. We are always observers. But there is no hint in that scene that somehow the TV audience is being invoked, vs. the detectives who are interviewing him. We even get regular reaction shots from the detectives. Yesterday 6:02pm
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The audience is a direct participant in the mythos now after his speech. I can elaborate further if you don't mind potential spoilers. Yesterday 6:03pm
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It is if you realize that he wasn't addressing them all along. Yesterday 6:06pm
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Spoilers for the episode I just recapped? I think that's fine. I still don't see any invocation of the actual audience. Yesterday 6:06pm
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Breaking the 4th wall was more subtle in this but all of the full frame front on shots become that once you understand the importance of his time and membrane story. Rust knows what he really is, what know one in his reality understands. Except maybe Reggie Ladeux.Yesterday 6:10pm
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RawheddRexx, I know what your referring to, but I don't think the writer was expecting us to take that literally. It's definitely there to be picked up on subtextually, but I don't think Rust is ever going to become aware that he is in a TV show. It's just the writer planting that thought in our minds. And despite Hart asking the bartender(played by Pizzolatto) "Why do you make me say this ****?" I don't see the author turning up as an actual character a la Steven King in the Dark Tower books
Yesterday 6:17pm
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Ok well I'm sorry you don't see it. I'll give another hint then so you can see it for yourself. What is flat and spins like he describes in his time rant? What could trap all of them and force them to relive their lives? Over and over. How could someone have a dream of being a person but not really be one. How would the audience become directly involved in the story like I am mentioning? And no I am not talking out my *** here. The shows creator makes a comment in The Daily Beasts latest review which directly addresses the issue. Anyone care to take a guess without reading the article? Yesterday 6:21pm
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LOL I didn't know about the Pizzolatto cameo — that is hilarious and great. I think it's possible that Rust "knows" he's a fictional character without this actually being about breaking the fourth wall. Because in his philosophy, everything is meaningless, so we might as well just be fictional characters who are pushed around by a story we don't control. I could easily see Rust saying something about how we are all just actors in a play and having that just be part of a general worldview rather than a fancy postmodern literary flourish. Yesterday 6:24pm
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RawheddRexx
Good job you got it. I think its the opposite actually its even more literal than anyone has realized. Everyone is focusing on the crimes story instead of the meta stuff actually happening. I'll wager awesome magical internet points that the show is actually about the definition of reality rather than the actual case.…
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thekeith82
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Oh my god, I just realised. A flat circle where they relive their lives over and over... It's a ******* DVD. They just did the cinematic equivalent of this page
From Final Crisis tie in Superman Beyond where Superman describes the experience of being on the page. The presence mentioned here is the same as the outside beings Cohl describes. It's the audience.
******* hell, that's brilliant. I doubt it's going to become a literal plot point or anything in the way that RawheddRex is quite suggesting, but as metafictional commentary that is superb.
ETA: and look at the header image on this article. It's a disc with a hole in the middle! HA!Yesterday 6:38pm
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Btw the other piece of proof that shows that not only is Rust aware he is a character trapped in a never ending story but ask the question, what is the spinning disc? The membrane he is talking about. If you go all the way with it you can see why the audience becomes directly involved. Any guesses? Yesterday 6:43pm
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thekeith82
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I've covered that in my comment above. Realising what you're getting at... Yeah, that's heady stuff. Yesterday 6:45pm
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You got it welcome to the real world. Rust not only knows he is a fictional character. He is trapped on a DVD. And the audience, we are their gods. Welcome to mind**** central. You just won the internet. Yesterday 6:49pm
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thekeith82
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Grant Morrison has been pulling this exact thing in comics since as far back as his run on Animal Man in the 80s, and it's been a theme that has played a major part in many of his works. Particularly The Invisibles (which shares a lot of Lovecraftian influence with TD, although it's far more overt) and Flex Mentallo. That page from Superman is probably the most elegant single page examination of that theme, but it's a long way from the only one. This is not my first rodeo my friend, although I am absolutely delighted to see someone having a crack at it in such a superb TV show. Yesterday 6:53pm
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And anyone still left to read this thread now understands what i mean about the 4th wall. When you put in your DVD and press play, you force Rust and his universe to relive their quest over. And over. And over. Yesterday 6:55pm
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rty
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In the first episode he says "this place is like somebody's memory of a town and the memory is fading". It sounded like it fits to what you are talking about. So the 1992 Rust seems to have an inkling of what is going on but the 2012 version is absolutely sure.
I'm just having trouble grasping the idea, I've seen this done in comics and comedies but in a serious show like this to have a character know he is fictional and on a DVD is tough to wrap my mind around. Yesterday 7:08pm
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You are correct until you factor in the membrane. Once you realize what the turning disc really is it breaks through the 4th wall. The only question left now is how the story ends. My guess is the first shot of the series is actually the last but we will see. Sorry if I ruined this for anyone else. I love io9 so please don't send banish meYesterday 7:11pm
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RawheddRexx
I know its hard. I couldn't believe it either when Rust finished his speech. I was like this can't be. But it is happening unless they completely change direction at the 11th hour. What it raises now is who are the gods the people are sacrificed too. I am guessing it is to appease us, the audience.
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I just got mindraped, and I came to half of your story by going back to watch Rust's speech again, and it hit me. The real mind**** and the message, the riddle, it is in the title of the show. The viewer is the True Detective in this case. I just have to watch all the episodes again. Thanks for the clarification, I missed the disk part, it didn't spoil anything, just made me appreciate the show more. Yesterday 7:25pm
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I still am hurting from the brain pounding too. Everything about this show is not what it seems. Everything they say or do makes sense. Nothing is by chance including the camera angles. Rust is talking directly to the audience, the detectives are not his intended recipient. He's talking past them to us. Yesterday 7:32pm
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Actually that line about falling into the hands of blah blah blah is from the christian bible, book of Hebrews. (It sounded familiar so i looked it up.) Yesterday 7:45pm
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Well, except for the fact that show is not on disc. I am not watching it on disc. Through the miracle of internet streaming, I will never watch it on disc. Actually most people who see it will not see it on disc. So if Rust is trapped on a disc, and I am not watching it on disc, I guess I am not watching Rust but only a liminal version of Rust. Yesterday 7:55pm
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Yeah that is the only bit that makes me think the interpretation could still be wrong. I'm not sure how to account for the digital part but there are three episodes left so who knows. Hell maybe I'm totally wrong and cthulu will come out of the swamp at the end Yesterday 8:00pm
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All the other things make sense, the can does not have to be disk, but another symbol none of us though of yet. Yesterday 8:05pm
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In "The King in Yellow," however, it's ascribed to the King. Who may be quoting from the Bible, of course. Yesterday 8:08pm
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Maybe the devil traps are pointing to something I haven't figured those out yet Yesterday 8:12pm
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You mean like a tape? A video recording of the interviews that we (audience included) are all watching? And here I was thinking that it was a reference to the cyclical time in ritual by Eliade. He discusses how ritual breaks the linear construct of time and allows one to exist across all times in some of his work. But a story within a story within a story ... now you're onto something. It is almost like we (the audience) are the true detectives but blessed with four dimensions and by looking down upon this show from eternity we can see it whole and in two dimensions. The characters we watch are going to have to deal with the secret fate of all life and roll through it like mine-carts on tracks. Much like the King in Yellow, I see it now but I don't want to. That IS a depressing thought. Yesterday 8:57pm
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This is ridiculously insane, and I LOVE IT!! Nothing like a nihilist who believes in a kind of fate. Yesterday 9:03pm
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Didn't like this theory initially, but damn, I gotta agree with it... the mirror shots also might fit with it - e.g., Rust has that tiny mirror so as not to see the audience reflected in it, and Martin's double-take when looking in the mirror at Ledoux's place. And Rust did mention something about the cartels peeling off your face and showing you in the mirror - I'm guessing that is hinting at his fate (he'll have to die to get the higher-level perspective he seems to be seeking, and I'm sure he's fine with that).
I think the show is building toward a cliffhanger that leaves the audience complicit in the events - if you want more, or some sort of definitive answer, you are condemning the characters to more suffering. If the series continues, we'll probably get more of the interdimensional mythology - I feel like the creators want the audience looking over their shoulders and questioning their own reality. I could see a second series tackling another genre entirely (Homeland meets H.P. Lovecraft?).
I'm wondering how they will address the foreknowledge/meta awareness of characters like Ledoux - didn't he say something like "I know what happens next" / "You're in Carcosa now" before getting shot? And given that Carcosa is the setting of a story within a story... I think that goes back to pushing the audience to question the nature of their own reality. Yesterday 9:14pm
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noospheratoo
Yeah, that quote definitely got me thinking he was referring to the writer's memory... and the whole setup with the coroner's office being in a stripmall set off some alarms - looking back, it seems like one of the first signs that these guys aren't 'real' detectives, that everything in this world is a construct, and…
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I think you've identified an interesting riff on the show's general theme of hopelessness the characters' perceived lack of agency (i.e., lots of Rust's speeches are about how people are just machines with the illusion of free will, a sentiment echoed by carious criminal characters in the show as well), but I doubt the show will end up being about Rust being trapped in a TV show. I mean, it was obvious to me the the writers and producers of the show mean for the audience to reflect on the nature of narrative and how it traps characters involved. But that's not the point of the show, or how the central struggle will be defined.
Though, to give your theory some hope, even if the audience watches the show streaming or on DVR, the data is most likely running on a hard disk of some kind, which is shaped like a DVD.Yesterday 10:18pm
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Jon Elkin
I also noticed that when they are talking on the phone and both driving, that Cohle is going straight and moving the steering wheel around like crazy.. a common film device, but not something one would expect to see in a show like this. Perhaps pointing out the unreality of this reality?
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Don't forget on what medium these shows are likely stored before streaming��
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mxyzptlk
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For what it's worth, that theory also applies to the book the show is based on (and any book). You hold The King In Yellow
in your hand, and all the events are occurring at once in superposition. We only experience them linearly through the act of reading. The same goes for the act of viewing a show.
I think it's more metacommentary on fictionality than 4th wall breaking. However, if you go with Rust's idea that we're all just living out the same stories again and again, then the audience is also implicated as characters in this text, in which case every time we watch an episode the 4th wall is broken — because we're also characters in the text of the story being talked to in that story. Today 3:49am
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It goes deeper than that... the m-brane theory Rust espouses is explicitly that used to describe the time perspective of the higher beings in The Invisibles
- especially The King-Of-All-Tears, who Morrison also has self-identify as The King In Yellow.
(Until the show says otherwise, I'm assuming Rust's missing 7 years were spent training in the Invisible College to bring down Tuttle's branch of the Outer Church.)
The 4th-walling is also explicit - as Pizzolato says in this interview with Daily Beast
:
Today 3:56am
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Good point. Also if the audience is now a participant, are we the ancient gods which appears to being appeased with sacrifice. Are the murders being done to appease us? To spin the disc again and give them life again? Today 5:09am
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papapicklez
Mind=blown. I love this! And you're right the writers pretty much say as much themselves. To be honest I've been pretty much spacing out during the metaphysical rants... I'm a lot like Marty. Now I have to start all over. Thank you for this!
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Did u say DVD and being trapped in a TV-show, cuz Ive seen that before:
27 minutes ago
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Yep Edtv did it. Perhaps the casting choices was not by chance. How is that for a mind****? The rabbit hole sure is deep... 20 minutes ago
Eh, I felt dude was talking out his *** with his insistence that he didn't want to spoil anything when that's really not a big spoiler. Then when he finally explained more, I find Rust realizing he's a fictional character on a DVD boring and unimaginative and pretty off for this type of story. It brings nothing new to this. Aint nothing different from Deadpool who always breaks the 4th wall if this ends up being true.
Here's the whole thing from the comments section of one of the vids posted on the last page...
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Did anyone notice they broke the 4th wall on last nights episode? The show is far deeper and crazier than most people are picking up on. So far no one seems to have picked up on it yet...Yesterday 5:37pm
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Care to expand? Yesterday 5:44pm
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How far do you want participants to go with discussions? I don't want to ruin things for anyone. Is it ok to bring up the entire under textof an amazingly written show before its over? I'm not with the show but I saw the creators comments and it confirm s what I thought the show was doing. If its ok to potentially spoil the whole beans let me know. Otherwise I'll keep quiet. I will say that Rust's speech about time holds the key to the show... Yesterday 5:52pm
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I was just asking about breaking the 4th wall in last night's episode. When did that happen?Yesterday 5:56pm
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During the time speech. The audience are the observers. Yesterday 5:58pm
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Literally. Yesterday 5:59pm
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That's not really breaking the 4th wall. We are always observers. But there is no hint in that scene that somehow the TV audience is being invoked, vs. the detectives who are interviewing him. We even get regular reaction shots from the detectives. Yesterday 6:02pm
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The audience is a direct participant in the mythos now after his speech. I can elaborate further if you don't mind potential spoilers. Yesterday 6:03pm
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It is if you realize that he wasn't addressing them all along. Yesterday 6:06pm
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Spoilers for the episode I just recapped? I think that's fine. I still don't see any invocation of the actual audience. Yesterday 6:06pm
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Breaking the 4th wall was more subtle in this but all of the full frame front on shots become that once you understand the importance of his time and membrane story. Rust knows what he really is, what know one in his reality understands. Except maybe Reggie Ladeux.Yesterday 6:10pm
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RawheddRexx, I know what your referring to, but I don't think the writer was expecting us to take that literally. It's definitely there to be picked up on subtextually, but I don't think Rust is ever going to become aware that he is in a TV show. It's just the writer planting that thought in our minds. And despite Hart asking the bartender(played by Pizzolatto) "Why do you make me say this ****?" I don't see the author turning up as an actual character a la Steven King in the Dark Tower books
Yesterday 6:17pm
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Ok well I'm sorry you don't see it. I'll give another hint then so you can see it for yourself. What is flat and spins like he describes in his time rant? What could trap all of them and force them to relive their lives? Over and over. How could someone have a dream of being a person but not really be one. How would the audience become directly involved in the story like I am mentioning? And no I am not talking out my *** here. The shows creator makes a comment in The Daily Beasts latest review which directly addresses the issue. Anyone care to take a guess without reading the article? Yesterday 6:21pm
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LOL I didn't know about the Pizzolatto cameo — that is hilarious and great. I think it's possible that Rust "knows" he's a fictional character without this actually being about breaking the fourth wall. Because in his philosophy, everything is meaningless, so we might as well just be fictional characters who are pushed around by a story we don't control. I could easily see Rust saying something about how we are all just actors in a play and having that just be part of a general worldview rather than a fancy postmodern literary flourish. Yesterday 6:24pm
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RawheddRexx
Good job you got it. I think its the opposite actually its even more literal than anyone has realized. Everyone is focusing on the crimes story instead of the meta stuff actually happening. I'll wager awesome magical internet points that the show is actually about the definition of reality rather than the actual case.…
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thekeith82
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Oh my god, I just realised. A flat circle where they relive their lives over and over... It's a ******* DVD. They just did the cinematic equivalent of this page
From Final Crisis tie in Superman Beyond where Superman describes the experience of being on the page. The presence mentioned here is the same as the outside beings Cohl describes. It's the audience.
******* hell, that's brilliant. I doubt it's going to become a literal plot point or anything in the way that RawheddRex is quite suggesting, but as metafictional commentary that is superb.
ETA: and look at the header image on this article. It's a disc with a hole in the middle! HA!Yesterday 6:38pm
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Btw the other piece of proof that shows that not only is Rust aware he is a character trapped in a never ending story but ask the question, what is the spinning disc? The membrane he is talking about. If you go all the way with it you can see why the audience becomes directly involved. Any guesses? Yesterday 6:43pm
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I've covered that in my comment above. Realising what you're getting at... Yeah, that's heady stuff. Yesterday 6:45pm
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You got it welcome to the real world. Rust not only knows he is a fictional character. He is trapped on a DVD. And the audience, we are their gods. Welcome to mind**** central. You just won the internet. Yesterday 6:49pm
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Grant Morrison has been pulling this exact thing in comics since as far back as his run on Animal Man in the 80s, and it's been a theme that has played a major part in many of his works. Particularly The Invisibles (which shares a lot of Lovecraftian influence with TD, although it's far more overt) and Flex Mentallo. That page from Superman is probably the most elegant single page examination of that theme, but it's a long way from the only one. This is not my first rodeo my friend, although I am absolutely delighted to see someone having a crack at it in such a superb TV show. Yesterday 6:53pm
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And anyone still left to read this thread now understands what i mean about the 4th wall. When you put in your DVD and press play, you force Rust and his universe to relive their quest over. And over. And over. Yesterday 6:55pm
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rty
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In the first episode he says "this place is like somebody's memory of a town and the memory is fading". It sounded like it fits to what you are talking about. So the 1992 Rust seems to have an inkling of what is going on but the 2012 version is absolutely sure.
I'm just having trouble grasping the idea, I've seen this done in comics and comedies but in a serious show like this to have a character know he is fictional and on a DVD is tough to wrap my mind around. Yesterday 7:08pm
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You are correct until you factor in the membrane. Once you realize what the turning disc really is it breaks through the 4th wall. The only question left now is how the story ends. My guess is the first shot of the series is actually the last but we will see. Sorry if I ruined this for anyone else. I love io9 so please don't send banish me
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RawheddRexx
I know its hard. I couldn't believe it either when Rust finished his speech. I was like this can't be. But it is happening unless they completely change direction at the 11th hour. What it raises now is who are the gods the people are sacrificed too. I am guessing it is to appease us, the audience.
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HighDuke
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I just got mindraped, and I came to half of your story by going back to watch Rust's speech again, and it hit me. The real mind**** and the message, the riddle, it is in the title of the show. The viewer is the True Detective in this case. I just have to watch all the episodes again. Thanks for the clarification, I missed the disk part, it didn't spoil anything, just made me appreciate the show more. Yesterday 7:25pm
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RawheddRexx
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HighDuke
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I still am hurting from the brain pounding too. Everything about this show is not what it seems. Everything they say or do makes sense. Nothing is by chance including the camera angles. Rust is talking directly to the audience, the detectives are not his intended recipient. He's talking past them to us. Yesterday 7:32pm
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iamiangum
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Annalee Newitz
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Actually that line about falling into the hands of blah blah blah is from the christian bible, book of Hebrews. (It sounded familiar so i looked it up.) Yesterday 7:45pm
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artiejohnson
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RawheddRexx
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Well, except for the fact that show is not on disc. I am not watching it on disc. Through the miracle of internet streaming, I will never watch it on disc. Actually most people who see it will not see it on disc. So if Rust is trapped on a disc, and I am not watching it on disc, I guess I am not watching Rust but only a liminal version of Rust. Yesterday 7:55pm
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RawheddRexx
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artiejohnson
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Yeah that is the only bit that makes me think the interpretation could still be wrong. I'm not sure how to account for the digital part but there are three episodes left so who knows. Hell maybe I'm totally wrong and cthulu will come out of the swamp at the end Yesterday 8:00pm
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HighDuke
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RawheddRexx
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All the other things make sense, the can does not have to be disk, but another symbol none of us though of yet. Yesterday 8:05pm
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Annalee Newitz
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iamiangum
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In "The King in Yellow," however, it's ascribed to the King. Who may be quoting from the Bible, of course. Yesterday 8:08pm
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RawheddRexx
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HighDuke
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Maybe the devil traps are pointing to something I haven't figured those out yet Yesterday 8:12pm
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MarkPifher
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RawheddRexx
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You mean like a tape? A video recording of the interviews that we (audience included) are all watching? And here I was thinking that it was a reference to the cyclical time in ritual by Eliade. He discusses how ritual breaks the linear construct of time and allows one to exist across all times in some of his work. But a story within a story within a story ... now you're onto something. It is almost like we (the audience) are the true detectives but blessed with four dimensions and by looking down upon this show from eternity we can see it whole and in two dimensions. The characters we watch are going to have to deal with the secret fate of all life and roll through it like mine-carts on tracks. Much like the King in Yellow, I see it now but I don't want to. That IS a depressing thought. Yesterday 8:57pm
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kanegebius
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RawheddRexx
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This is ridiculously insane, and I LOVE IT!! Nothing like a nihilist who believes in a kind of fate. Yesterday 9:03pm
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noospheratoo
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RawheddRexx
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Didn't like this theory initially, but damn, I gotta agree with it... the mirror shots also might fit with it - e.g., Rust has that tiny mirror so as not to see the audience reflected in it, and Martin's double-take when looking in the mirror at Ledoux's place. And Rust did mention something about the cartels peeling off your face and showing you in the mirror - I'm guessing that is hinting at his fate (he'll have to die to get the higher-level perspective he seems to be seeking, and I'm sure he's fine with that).
I think the show is building toward a cliffhanger that leaves the audience complicit in the events - if you want more, or some sort of definitive answer, you are condemning the characters to more suffering. If the series continues, we'll probably get more of the interdimensional mythology - I feel like the creators want the audience looking over their shoulders and questioning their own reality. I could see a second series tackling another genre entirely (Homeland meets H.P. Lovecraft?).
I'm wondering how they will address the foreknowledge/meta awareness of characters like Ledoux - didn't he say something like "I know what happens next" / "You're in Carcosa now" before getting shot? And given that Carcosa is the setting of a story within a story... I think that goes back to pushing the audience to question the nature of their own reality. Yesterday 9:14pm
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noospheratoo
Yeah, that quote definitely got me thinking he was referring to the writer's memory... and the whole setup with the coroner's office being in a stripmall set off some alarms - looking back, it seems like one of the first signs that these guys aren't 'real' detectives, that everything in this world is a construct, and…
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Mr. GOH!
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RawheddRexx
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I think you've identified an interesting riff on the show's general theme of hopelessness the characters' perceived lack of agency (i.e., lots of Rust's speeches are about how people are just machines with the illusion of free will, a sentiment echoed by carious criminal characters in the show as well), but I doubt the show will end up being about Rust being trapped in a TV show. I mean, it was obvious to me the the writers and producers of the show mean for the audience to reflect on the nature of narrative and how it traps characters involved. But that's not the point of the show, or how the central struggle will be defined.
Though, to give your theory some hope, even if the audience watches the show streaming or on DVR, the data is most likely running on a hard disk of some kind, which is shaped like a DVD.Yesterday 10:18pm
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Jon Elkin
I also noticed that when they are talking on the phone and both driving, that Cohle is going straight and moving the steering wheel around like crazy.. a common film device, but not something one would expect to see in a show like this. Perhaps pointing out the unreality of this reality?
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sufficientterrestrial
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RawheddRexx
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Don't forget on what medium these shows are likely stored before streaming��
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mxyzptlk
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RawheddRexx
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1
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For what it's worth, that theory also applies to the book the show is based on (and any book). You hold The King In Yellow
in your hand, and all the events are occurring at once in superposition. We only experience them linearly through the act of reading. The same goes for the act of viewing a show.
I think it's more metacommentary on fictionality than 4th wall breaking. However, if you go with Rust's idea that we're all just living out the same stories again and again, then the audience is also implicated as characters in this text, in which case every time we watch an episode the 4th wall is broken — because we're also characters in the text of the story being talked to in that story. Today 3:49am
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Cat-Vincent
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RawheddRexx
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It goes deeper than that... the m-brane theory Rust espouses is explicitly that used to describe the time perspective of the higher beings in The Invisibles
- especially The King-Of-All-Tears, who Morrison also has self-identify as The King In Yellow.
(Until the show says otherwise, I'm assuming Rust's missing 7 years were spent training in the Invisible College to bring down Tuttle's branch of the Outer Church.)
The 4th-walling is also explicit - as Pizzolato says in this interview with Daily Beast
:
Today 3:56am
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RawheddRexx
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mxyzptlk
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Good point. Also if the audience is now a participant, are we the ancient gods which appears to being appeased with sacrifice. Are the murders being done to appease us? To spin the disc again and give them life again? Today 5:09am
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papapicklez
Mind=blown. I love this! And you're right the writers pretty much say as much themselves. To be honest I've been pretty much spacing out during the metaphysical rants... I'm a lot like Marty. Now I have to start all over. Thank you for this!
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Dunja
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RawheddRexx
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Did u say DVD and being trapped in a TV-show, cuz Ive seen that before:
27 minutes ago
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RawheddRexx
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Dunja
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Yep Edtv did it. Perhaps the casting choices was not by chance. How is that for a mind****? The rabbit hole sure is deep... 20 minutes ago
It may give you a different way of looking at the characters, especially Rust, however I don't think it ruins the show.Will reading this spoiler ruin the show for me? I was tempted and read the first couple of lines, then closed it out....
Here's the whole thing from the comments section of one of the vids posted on the last page...Author is participatingX
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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Did anyone notice they broke the 4th wall on last nights episode? The show is far deeper and crazier than most people are picking up on. So far no one seems to have picked up on it yet...Yesterday 5:37pm
Annalee Newitz
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RawheddRexx
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Care to expand? Yesterday 5:44pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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How far do you want participants to go with discussions? I don't want to ruin things for anyone. Is it ok to bring up the entire under textof an amazingly written show before its over? I'm not with the show but I saw the creators comments and it confirm s what I thought the show was doing. If its ok to potentially spoil the whole beans let me know. Otherwise I'll keep quiet. I will say that Rust's speech about time holds the key to the show... Yesterday 5:52pm
Annalee Newitz
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RawheddRexx
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I was just asking about breaking the 4th wall in last night's episode. When did that happen?Yesterday 5:56pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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During the time speech. The audience are the observers. Yesterday 5:58pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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Literally. Yesterday 5:59pm
Annalee Newitz
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RawheddRexx
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That's not really breaking the 4th wall. We are always observers. But there is no hint in that scene that somehow the TV audience is being invoked, vs. the detectives who are interviewing him. We even get regular reaction shots from the detectives. Yesterday 6:02pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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The audience is a direct participant in the mythos now after his speech. I can elaborate further if you don't mind potential spoilers. Yesterday 6:03pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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L
It is if you realize that he wasn't addressing them all along. Yesterday 6:06pm
Annalee Newitz
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RawheddRexx
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Spoilers for the episode I just recapped? I think that's fine. I still don't see any invocation of the actual audience. Yesterday 6:06pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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Breaking the 4th wall was more subtle in this but all of the full frame front on shots become that once you understand the importance of his time and membrane story. Rust knows what he really is, what know one in his reality understands. Except maybe Reggie Ladeux.Yesterday 6:10pm
jp10
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RawheddRexx
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RawheddRexx, I know what your referring to, but I don't think the writer was expecting us to take that literally. It's definitely there to be picked up on subtextually, but I don't think Rust is ever going to become aware that he is in a TV show. It's just the writer planting that thought in our minds. And despite Hart asking the bartender(played by Pizzolatto) "Why do you make me say this ****?" I don't see the author turning up as an actual character a la Steven King in the Dark Tower books
Yesterday 6:17pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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Ok well I'm sorry you don't see it. I'll give another hint then so you can see it for yourself. What is flat and spins like he describes in his time rant? What could trap all of them and force them to relive their lives? Over and over. How could someone have a dream of being a person but not really be one. How would the audience become directly involved in the story like I am mentioning? And no I am not talking out my *** here. The shows creator makes a comment in The Daily Beasts latest review which directly addresses the issue. Anyone care to take a guess without reading the article? Yesterday 6:21pm
Annalee Newitz
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jp10
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LOL I didn't know about the Pizzolatto cameo — that is hilarious and great. I think it's possible that Rust "knows" he's a fictional character without this actually being about breaking the fourth wall. Because in his philosophy, everything is meaningless, so we might as well just be fictional characters who are pushed around by a story we don't control. I could easily see Rust saying something about how we are all just actors in a play and having that just be part of a general worldview rather than a fancy postmodern literary flourish. Yesterday 6:24pm
RawheddRexx
Good job you got it. I think its the opposite actually its even more literal than anyone has realized. Everyone is focusing on the crimes story instead of the meta stuff actually happening. I'll wager awesome magical internet points that the show is actually about the definition of reality rather than the actual case.…
thekeith82
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Annalee Newitz
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Oh my god, I just realised. A flat circle where they relive their lives over and over... It's a ******* DVD. They just did the cinematic equivalent of this page
From Final Crisis tie in Superman Beyond where Superman describes the experience of being on the page. The presence mentioned here is the same as the outside beings Cohl describes. It's the audience.
******* hell, that's brilliant. I doubt it's going to become a literal plot point or anything in the way that RawheddRex is quite suggesting, but as metafictional commentary that is superb.
ETA: and look at the header image on this article. It's a disc with a hole in the middle! HA!Yesterday 6:38pm
RawheddRexx
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jp10
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Btw the other piece of proof that shows that not only is Rust aware he is a character trapped in a never ending story but ask the question, what is the spinning disc? The membrane he is talking about. If you go all the way with it you can see why the audience becomes directly involved. Any guesses? Yesterday 6:43pm
thekeith82
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RawheddRexx
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I've covered that in my comment above. Realising what you're getting at... Yeah, that's heady stuff. Yesterday 6:45pm
RawheddRexx
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thekeith82
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You got it welcome to the real world. Rust not only knows he is a fictional character. He is trapped on a DVD. And the audience, we are their gods. Welcome to mind**** central. You just won the internet. Yesterday 6:49pm
thekeith82
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RawheddRexx
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Grant Morrison has been pulling this exact thing in comics since as far back as his run on Animal Man in the 80s, and it's been a theme that has played a major part in many of his works. Particularly The Invisibles (which shares a lot of Lovecraftian influence with TD, although it's far more overt) and Flex Mentallo. That page from Superman is probably the most elegant single page examination of that theme, but it's a long way from the only one. This is not my first rodeo my friend, although I am absolutely delighted to see someone having a crack at it in such a superb TV show. Yesterday 6:53pm
RawheddRexx
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thekeith82
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And anyone still left to read this thread now understands what i mean about the 4th wall. When you put in your DVD and press play, you force Rust and his universe to relive their quest over. And over. And over. Yesterday 6:55pm
rty
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RawheddRexx
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In the first episode he says "this place is like somebody's memory of a town and the memory is fading". It sounded like it fits to what you are talking about. So the 1992 Rust seems to have an inkling of what is going on but the 2012 version is absolutely sure.
I'm just having trouble grasping the idea, I've seen this done in comics and comedies but in a serious show like this to have a character know he is fictional and on a DVD is tough to wrap my mind around. Yesterday 7:08pm
RawheddRexx
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Annalee Newitz
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You are correct until you factor in the membrane. Once you realize what the turning disc really is it breaks through the 4th wall. The only question left now is how the story ends. My guess is the first shot of the series is actually the last but we will see. Sorry if I ruined this for anyone else. I love io9 so please don't send banish me
RawheddRexx
I know its hard. I couldn't believe it either when Rust finished his speech. I was like this can't be. But it is happening unless they completely change direction at the 11th hour. What it raises now is who are the gods the people are sacrificed too. I am guessing it is to appease us, the audience.
HighDuke
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RawheddRexx
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I just got mindraped, and I came to half of your story by going back to watch Rust's speech again, and it hit me. The real mind**** and the message, the riddle, it is in the title of the show. The viewer is the True Detective in this case. I just have to watch all the episodes again. Thanks for the clarification, I missed the disk part, it didn't spoil anything, just made me appreciate the show more. Yesterday 7:25pm
RawheddRexx
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HighDuke
1
L
I still am hurting from the brain pounding too. Everything about this show is not what it seems. Everything they say or do makes sense. Nothing is by chance including the camera angles. Rust is talking directly to the audience, the detectives are not his intended recipient. He's talking past them to us. Yesterday 7:32pm
iamiangum
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Annalee Newitz
1
L
Actually that line about falling into the hands of blah blah blah is from the christian bible, book of Hebrews. (It sounded familiar so i looked it up.) Yesterday 7:45pm
artiejohnson
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RawheddRexx
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Well, except for the fact that show is not on disc. I am not watching it on disc. Through the miracle of internet streaming, I will never watch it on disc. Actually most people who see it will not see it on disc. So if Rust is trapped on a disc, and I am not watching it on disc, I guess I am not watching Rust but only a liminal version of Rust. Yesterday 7:55pm
RawheddRexx
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artiejohnson
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Yeah that is the only bit that makes me think the interpretation could still be wrong. I'm not sure how to account for the digital part but there are three episodes left so who knows. Hell maybe I'm totally wrong and cthulu will come out of the swamp at the end Yesterday 8:00pm
HighDuke
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RawheddRexx
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All the other things make sense, the can does not have to be disk, but another symbol none of us though of yet. Yesterday 8:05pm
Annalee Newitz
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iamiangum
1
1
L
In "The King in Yellow," however, it's ascribed to the King. Who may be quoting from the Bible, of course. Yesterday 8:08pm
RawheddRexx
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HighDuke
1
L
Maybe the devil traps are pointing to something I haven't figured those out yet Yesterday 8:12pm
MarkPifher
U
RawheddRexx
2
1
L
You mean like a tape? A video recording of the interviews that we (audience included) are all watching? And here I was thinking that it was a reference to the cyclical time in ritual by Eliade. He discusses how ritual breaks the linear construct of time and allows one to exist across all times in some of his work. But a story within a story within a story ... now you're onto something. It is almost like we (the audience) are the true detectives but blessed with four dimensions and by looking down upon this show from eternity we can see it whole and in two dimensions. The characters we watch are going to have to deal with the secret fate of all life and roll through it like mine-carts on tracks. Much like the King in Yellow, I see it now but I don't want to. That IS a depressing thought. Yesterday 8:57pm
kanegebius
U
RawheddRexx
2
1
L
This is ridiculously insane, and I LOVE IT!! Nothing like a nihilist who believes in a kind of fate. Yesterday 9:03pm
noospheratoo
U
RawheddRexx
2
1
L
Didn't like this theory initially, but damn, I gotta agree with it... the mirror shots also might fit with it - e.g., Rust has that tiny mirror so as not to see the audience reflected in it, and Martin's double-take when looking in the mirror at Ledoux's place. And Rust did mention something about the cartels peeling off your face and showing you in the mirror - I'm guessing that is hinting at his fate (he'll have to die to get the higher-level perspective he seems to be seeking, and I'm sure he's fine with that).
I think the show is building toward a cliffhanger that leaves the audience complicit in the events - if you want more, or some sort of definitive answer, you are condemning the characters to more suffering. If the series continues, we'll probably get more of the interdimensional mythology - I feel like the creators want the audience looking over their shoulders and questioning their own reality. I could see a second series tackling another genre entirely (Homeland meets H.P. Lovecraft?).
I'm wondering how they will address the foreknowledge/meta awareness of characters like Ledoux - didn't he say something like "I know what happens next" / "You're in Carcosa now" before getting shot? And given that Carcosa is the setting of a story within a story... I think that goes back to pushing the audience to question the nature of their own reality. Yesterday 9:14pm
noospheratoo
Yeah, that quote definitely got me thinking he was referring to the writer's memory... and the whole setup with the coroner's office being in a stripmall set off some alarms - looking back, it seems like one of the first signs that these guys aren't 'real' detectives, that everything in this world is a construct, and…
Mr. GOH!
U
RawheddRexx
1
1
L
I think you've identified an interesting riff on the show's general theme of hopelessness the characters' perceived lack of agency (i.e., lots of Rust's speeches are about how people are just machines with the illusion of free will, a sentiment echoed by carious criminal characters in the show as well), but I doubt the show will end up being about Rust being trapped in a TV show. I mean, it was obvious to me the the writers and producers of the show mean for the audience to reflect on the nature of narrative and how it traps characters involved. But that's not the point of the show, or how the central struggle will be defined.
Though, to give your theory some hope, even if the audience watches the show streaming or on DVR, the data is most likely running on a hard disk of some kind, which is shaped like a DVD.Yesterday 10:18pm
Jon Elkin
I also noticed that when they are talking on the phone and both driving, that Cohle is going straight and moving the steering wheel around like crazy.. a common film device, but not something one would expect to see in a show like this. Perhaps pointing out the unreality of this reality?
sufficientterrestrial
U
RawheddRexx
1
1
L
Don't forget on what medium these shows are likely stored before streaming��
mxyzptlk
U
RawheddRexx
2
1
L
For what it's worth, that theory also applies to the book the show is based on (and any book). You hold The King In Yellow
in your hand, and all the events are occurring at once in superposition. We only experience them linearly through the act of reading. The same goes for the act of viewing a show.
I think it's more metacommentary on fictionality than 4th wall breaking. However, if you go with Rust's idea that we're all just living out the same stories again and again, then the audience is also implicated as characters in this text, in which case every time we watch an episode the 4th wall is broken — because we're also characters in the text of the story being talked to in that story. Today 3:49am
Cat-Vincent
U
RawheddRexx
1
1
L
It goes deeper than that... the m-brane theory Rust espouses is explicitly that used to describe the time perspective of the higher beings in The Invisibles
- especially The King-Of-All-Tears, who Morrison also has self-identify as The King In Yellow.
(Until the show says otherwise, I'm assuming Rust's missing 7 years were spent training in the Invisible College to bring down Tuttle's branch of the Outer Church.)
The 4th-walling is also explicit - as Pizzolato says in this interview with Daily Beast
:
Today 3:56am
RawheddRexx
U
mxyzptlk
1
L
Good point. Also if the audience is now a participant, are we the ancient gods which appears to being appeased with sacrifice. Are the murders being done to appease us? To spin the disc again and give them life again? Today 5:09am
papapicklez
Mind=blown. I love this! And you're right the writers pretty much say as much themselves. To be honest I've been pretty much spacing out during the metaphysical rants... I'm a lot like Marty. Now I have to start all over. Thank you for this!
Dunja
U
RawheddRexx
1
L
Did u say DVD and being trapped in a TV-show, cuz Ive seen that before:
27 minutes ago
RawheddRexx
U
Dunja
1
L
Yep Edtv did it. Perhaps the casting choices was not by chance. How is that for a mind****? The rabbit hole sure is deep... 20 minutes ago
Eh, I felt dude was talking out his *** with his insistence that he didn't want to spoil anything when that's really not a big spoiler. Then when he finally explained more, I find Rust realizing he's a fictional character on a DVD boring and unimaginative and pretty off for this type of story. It brings nothing new to this. Aint nothing different from Deadpool who always breaks the 4th wall if this ends up being true.
Alexandra DaddarioVerified account@AADaddario
