- 2,074
- 39
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2007
lololololololololololololololololol
rondo has KG, pierce, allen, all multiple time all stars
rondo has talent around him
rose does not have any even close to all star level talent around him
Williams: I'm The Best Point Guard In The League
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by yeeupp,
- Start date
rondo has KG, pierce, allen, all multiple time all stars
rondo has talent around him
rose does not have any even close to all star level talent around him
- 3,995
- 44
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
Ok, rebounding is an important defensive stat. I'm glad we established that.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, rebounding is still an important defensive stat. Secondly, having a PG rebound the ball eliminates the possibility of a C trying to start fast break by passing the ball out and then getting picked. Not every big man can pass like Kevin Love out there. You almost make it sound like its bad for a PG to rebound the ball...Originally Posted by koolbarbone
The last time I checked you can cover more ground by passing the ball than by dribbling. If I'm running a fast-break system, I don't want my point guard in the paint trying to get a rebound, I want him by the three-point line waiting for the outlet.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
Rebounding is an important defensive stat. Defensive rebounding for a PG is huge actually, considering the same player can now start the fast break without having to wait for his teammate to pass him the ball first.Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican
Interesting point. While it is nice to have, I don't think a rebounding difference should be heavily factored into the equation. That is like me picking one female over another because she knows how to do her own oil change. Not really an important facet of the game.Originally Posted by Jason23Richardson
aint nobody give a damn about rebounding at the point guard position
So basically, in your fast-break system, you would draft a point guard to rebound so your center's passes won't get intercepted. I don't even want to know what you think a center's responsibilities are, let alone the fact that there are four other players besides the center who can potentially rebound the ball and start the break.
End of the day, if a point guard can rebound, that's great but it's not going to be any more difficult to start a fast-break offensive with a point guard who doesn't.
- 1,224
- 16
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2010
LOL.
talent??
- 9,865
- 1,704
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2004
i cant be mad at him saying this. he wants his recognition. Its overdue.
- 1,224
- 16
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2010
^ he's mad 'cause it's just his 1st time to be in the all star game this year. long overdue, indeed.
- 5,456
- 11
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
- 12,536
- 39
- Joined
- May 5, 2009
Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
ouch
got em
- 3,995
- 44
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
Right. Because starting the fast-break with your point guard near the baseline will give you better numbers than by having him catch an outlet past the three-point line. And because every point guard is 6-8 like Magic they should all be in the paint because you don't trust your center or power forward to pass the ball. That sounds like a winning formula to me.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
- 5,456
- 11
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
And what evidence do you have that clearly states having the PG get a pass near the three-point line and then starting the fast break is better than a PG rebounding the ball and then starting it? Just because it might take less time for the ball to travel from one side of the court to the other doesn't make it more effective. That extra pass in the beginning is a negative imo since it gives the defense time to recover and defend the PG that would have wanted to start the fast break after getting the pass. So yeah, the ball took less time to get past half court, but now there is also more defensive attention on the PG because the defense was expecting a pass to the PG from the C. Why do you think Lamar Odom is so effective after he gets the ball and starts his own fast break, rather than passing it to Fisher? Cause the defense has less time to react and defend, right? You might trust Cs and PFs out there to make a quick decision, but I know dang well I rather let Jason Kidd get the rebound and start the offense than having Dampier get the rebound and look for Kidd to pass the ball to. Just more predictable for the defense to react and defend. Unless you got a Kevin Love out there that can throw the pass from one side of the court to another, but most big men just don't pass like that.Originally Posted by koolbarbone
Right. Because starting the fast-break with your point guard near the baseline will give you better numbers than by having him catch an outlet past the three-point line. And because every point guard is 6-8 like Magic they should all be in the paint because you don't trust your center or power forward to pass the ball. That sounds like a winning formula to me.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
Once again, you sounding like a PG that can rebound is a negative for the team. No one wants to see a PG stand at the 3 point line and wait for the potential pass when the PG can go inside himself and try to get a rebound. Not like the PF and C on the team somehow forgets how to rebound now, just more opportunity for the team overall to get the rebound. Which is a positive to me.
- 3,995
- 44
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
The only reason why fast breaks are effective is because they allow the offense to attack the basket before the defense has time to recover. You acknowledge the fact that a pass travels faster than a player dribbling the ball so I don't understand what is so difficult about this argument. You don't need Kevin Love to throw the ball from one side of the court to the other, you just need a player to make a chest pass from the paint to the three-point line. They can do that in the half-court set, so obviously they can do it to start a fast break.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
And what evidence do you have that clearly states having the PG get a pass near the three-point line and then starting the fast break is better than a PG rebounding the ball and then starting it? Just because it might take less time for the ball to travel from one side of the court to the other doesn't make it more effective. That extra pass in the beginning is a negative imo since it gives the defense time to recover and defend the PG that would have wanted to start the fast break after getting the pass. So yeah, the ball took less time to get past half court, but now there is also more defensive attention on the PG because the defense was expecting a pass to the PG from the C. Why do you think Lamar Odom is so effective after he gets the ball and starts his own fast break, rather than passing it to Fisher? Cause the defense has less time to react and defend, right? You might trust Cs and PFs out there to make a quick decision, but I know dang well I rather let Jason Kidd get the rebound and start the offense than having Dampier get the rebound and look for Kidd to pass the ball to. Just more predictable for the defense to react and defend. Unless you got a Kevin Love out there that can throw the pass from one side of the court to another, but most big men just don't pass like that.Originally Posted by koolbarbone
Right. Because starting the fast-break with your point guard near the baseline will give you better numbers than by having him catch an outlet past the three-point line. And because every point guard is 6-8 like Magic they should all be in the paint because you don't trust your center or power forward to pass the ball. That sounds like a winning formula to me.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
Once again, you sounding like a PG that can rebound is a negative for the team. No one wants to see a PG stand at the 3 point line and wait for the potential pass when the PG can go inside himself and try to get a rebound. Not like the PF and C on the team somehow forgets how to rebound now, just more opportunity for the team overall to get the rebound. Which is a positive to me.
You say that the defense has time to recover because they are guarding the pass to the point guard, which just isn't true in most cases since it is normally the person who is defending the point guard that has to get back on defense first, thus leaving the point guard open for an outlet pass. That's one of the first things players are taught about defense so I don't know why you think that the point guard is being denied the outlet. But hey, maybe full-court pressure will make a comeback in the NBA since it worked so well for Pitino.
Again, I'm not saying that rebounding isn't a good thing. If a team is running a half-court offense, then by all means have your point guard rebound the ball. But if you want to fast break, you don't need a point guard who can rebound to do it.
- 5,456
- 11
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
The defense (not just the player defending the PG) has time to react and defend with that extra pass. And you are really generalizing what you are suppose to do on defense by saying that the opposing player defending the PG should be running back on defense after any shot. It depends on the situation at hand, the actual defender, and the PG he is defending. It won't mean a thing if you are standing on quicksand by yourself on the other side of the court trying to prepare for the fast breaking PG when dude is just going to speed pass you and jump over you with a dunk. Sounds like "lets get lucky and get a charge like Derek Fisher" defense to me. Might as well try to prevent the PG from reaching full speed by playing some actual defense on the ball.Originally Posted by koolbarbone
The only reason why fast breaks are effective is because they allow the offense to attack the basket before the defense has time to recover. You acknowledge the fact that a pass travels faster than a player dribbling the ball so I don't understand what is so difficult about this argument. You don't need Kevin Love to throw the ball from one side of the court to the other, you just need a player to make a chest pass from the paint to the three-point line. They can do that in the half-court set, so obviously they can do it to start a fast break.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
And what evidence do you have that clearly states having the PG get a pass near the three-point line and then starting the fast break is better than a PG rebounding the ball and then starting it? Just because it might take less time for the ball to travel from one side of the court to the other doesn't make it more effective. That extra pass in the beginning is a negative imo since it gives the defense time to recover and defend the PG that would have wanted to start the fast break after getting the pass. So yeah, the ball took less time to get past half court, but now there is also more defensive attention on the PG because the defense was expecting a pass to the PG from the C. Why do you think Lamar Odom is so effective after he gets the ball and starts his own fast break, rather than passing it to Fisher? Cause the defense has less time to react and defend, right? You might trust Cs and PFs out there to make a quick decision, but I know dang well I rather let Jason Kidd get the rebound and start the offense than having Dampier get the rebound and look for Kidd to pass the ball to. Just more predictable for the defense to react and defend. Unless you got a Kevin Love out there that can throw the pass from one side of the court to another, but most big men just don't pass like that.Originally Posted by koolbarbone
Right. Because starting the fast-break with your point guard near the baseline will give you better numbers than by having him catch an outlet past the three-point line. And because every point guard is 6-8 like Magic they should all be in the paint because you don't trust your center or power forward to pass the ball. That sounds like a winning formula to me.Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
End of the day, I would much rather let the PG have the ball in his hands. Let the PG decide if there will be a fast break or not. Hence, rebounding by a PG is important. (Which was the point of the original argument about how Rondo's rebounding is useless when rating a PG...)
Why you bring up fast break systems though?
Here's mine:
Once again, you sounding like a PG that can rebound is a negative for the team. No one wants to see a PG stand at the 3 point line and wait for the potential pass when the PG can go inside himself and try to get a rebound. Not like the PF and C on the team somehow forgets how to rebound now, just more opportunity for the team overall to get the rebound. Which is a positive to me.
You say that the defense has time to recover because they are guarding the pass to the point guard, which just isn't true in most cases since it is normally the person who is defending the point guard that has to get back on defense first, thus leaving the point guard open for an outlet pass. That's one of the first things players are taught about defense so I don't know why you think that the point guard is being denied the outlet. But hey, maybe full-court pressure will make a comeback in the NBA since it worked so well for Pitino.
Again, I'm not saying that rebounding isn't a good thing. If a team is running a half-court offense, then by all means have your point guard rebound the ball. But if you want to fast break, you don't need a point guard who can rebound to do it.
And I don't really mean the PG would be denied the pass from the C, but rather the defender would expect the ball to go to the PG so he will be ready with his defense. But thanks for bringing that up because not all situations are the same so maybe an opposing defender would try to prevent the pass and see what the C does in decision making. Good luck with some of the Cs we got in the league today.
End of the day, have your PG try to rebound the ball at all times. It will be beneficial to the team because who knows who you got rebounding inside for you. Word to Kwame Brown.
Magic and Kidd started their own fast breaks and you are suggesting them to rebound the ball only for half court offense? What?
darthska
Staff member
- 46,288
- 30,468
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2004
People are really arguing that a rebounding PG is NOT a benefit?!
Wow.
Versatility is ALWAYS a benefit in sports. The few times a year that Pau grabs the board, runs the court, and get the assist it's a benefit. A big man that can run the floor? Beneficial.
Wow.
Versatility is ALWAYS a benefit in sports. The few times a year that Pau grabs the board, runs the court, and get the assist it's a benefit. A big man that can run the floor? Beneficial.
big j 33
Supporter
- 35,966
- 16,673
- Joined
- May 31, 2006
For the record, people need to stop quoting those giant blocks of texts.
Quote just the last thing they said, or the last couple responses at most. Especially in S&T with a lot of back and forth discussions, I don't need to see 85% same material for only one or two sentences in response.
Quote just the last thing they said, or the last couple responses at most. Especially in S&T with a lot of back and forth discussions, I don't need to see 85% same material for only one or two sentences in response.
- 53,459
- 21,039
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2009
Damn. You guys don't have to quote everything. Just write and make people read.
- 3,995
- 44
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
Who said it isn't a benefit? I said it isn't essential if you want to want to run a fast-break offense. But apparently Kevin Love is the only center who can make an outlet pass so I guess every point guard should be trying to out-rebound Dwight Howard.Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
People are really arguing that a rebounding PG is NOT a benefit?!
Wow.
Versatility is ALWAYS a benefit in sports. The few times a year that Pau grabs the board, runs the court, and get the assist it's a benefit. A big man that can run the floor? Beneficial.
- 21,800
- 3,553
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2010
And then Barkley just did it to Chris Paul's face. "I had you at number one. Not anymore. Deron is better. Because he's bigger."
- 17,655
- 24,009
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
So Rose is sooooooo much better than Rondo, huh?
- 21,443
- 12,530
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2007
Chris Paul ain't dead...so naw he isn't the best.
- 482
- 28
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2008
Deron Williams is def playing like the best, but CP3, and Rondo could def be in the picture
everysingletime
formerly amel223
- 42,963
- 15,346
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2006
To be fair, I can see where nicedudewithnicedreams (that's a mouthful) is coming from.
As a Rose fan, I think it would be nice for Rose to get more rebounds to get the fast break started right away.
If anyone has noticed, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah kinda take too long to get the ball to Rose sometimes, after getting the defensive rebound. It's partly because they're too slow to find him (they take a reaaaallly long time sometimes), and partly cuz some defenses have caught on and do their best to deny Rose the ball so their teammates have time to get back on D. And it works too. Which pisses me off to no end.
This is where VDN is lacking as a coach. He should've adjusted down the line. You have two point guards in your backcourt. Just get it to either one of them and make the other run downcourt. But somehow I have the feeling that the big guys are coached to always try to get it to Rose.
As a Rose fan, I think it would be nice for Rose to get more rebounds to get the fast break started right away.
If anyone has noticed, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah kinda take too long to get the ball to Rose sometimes, after getting the defensive rebound. It's partly because they're too slow to find him (they take a reaaaallly long time sometimes), and partly cuz some defenses have caught on and do their best to deny Rose the ball so their teammates have time to get back on D. And it works too. Which pisses me off to no end.
This is where VDN is lacking as a coach. He should've adjusted down the line. You have two point guards in your backcourt. Just get it to either one of them and make the other run downcourt. But somehow I have the feeling that the big guys are coached to always try to get it to Rose.
chiefwiggum
Banned
- 1,340
- 10
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2010
These rebound arguments are insane!! I fully agree with Ska. A rebounding PG's duties are NOT to rebound the ball. It just so happens that he can rebound the ball. Which is a huge lift for any team.
Rick Sanchez
formerly wisache15
- 955
- 25
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
Enough said best PG in the league
- 17,655
- 24,009
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
- 4,876
- 10
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2007
Rose is still better.Originally Posted by JD617
Theres a reason it took Rondo twice as long to be an All-Star.
If he plays like this consistently, i'll re think about it. But i dont see it happening, he only averaged 13 points a game this year. One game and one game only is gonna change my mind.
Everyone knows Rose on the Celtics would be more
- 6,599
- 439
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2009
^
Nope, Rondo's vision gets the whole team easy buckets.
Rose would score more, but the rest of the team would suffer.
Nope, Rondo's vision gets the whole team easy buckets.
Rose would score more, but the rest of the team would suffer.
