Question about bastardization of old retros (IV XI)

[mjmoney23]

I have been wearing Jordans since the OG XII (I'm 22) and got into collecting around the time the Space Jams came out in 2000. This being said, I missedthe 99 IV. I was wondering if there was alot of complaining and whining on here when the retro + IV with no netting and the Jumpman on the back came out. Ifthese had not released in 99 and came out for the first time now, I think it's possible that these might have been the most hated Retro Jordan of all time. I really want to know how the older Jordan heads see/saw these releases. Also, as I said I started collecting during the XI retro, and bought a pair of thesnakeskins. I remember these being received pretty well on here. If they were to come out for the first time today, do you think they would still be receivedso well?

 

[sukwonee]

Snakeskins were low-tops - meaning XI was not originally released in a low cut (except for the XI LEs, which look completely different compared to XI mids), sotechnically, it would not be considered "bastardization" of the OG. I think most accepted the snakeskins as a "different" shoe, rather thandistorted XIs. I think it'd be accepted well even if they are released today, but it's just that there are way too many retro jordans being releasedcurrently, compared to back in 01 & 02 - these might get overlooked and probably less-hyped. Just my opinion though.

 

[william rivera 3]

wow, snakeskins...

 

[sickickz23]

I don't think those retro + 4s were the most hated. People just saw it as a different looking Jordan that resemble the 4s. It was different back then andthere was no anticipation for those 4s. As far as I can recall, they were still at the stores, months after the releases.


I do however, remember people getting heated all over the retro True Blue III's.

 

[airjordan jb23]

Put it this way, people will ALWAYS complain about something. You'll always have that. Now though, its worse just because of maybe the past year & ahalf with the mix of terrible colorways on classic models. Since that, people will always kind of add it on to the list, so to speak.

 

[neptunesfinest]

There were some people that didn't like them. I remember they had samples of a white/blue colorway that was supposed to release which looked more like theOG than the release version. They had plastic wings and netting and cement specks like the white/cement. When those got scrapped for the released versionpeople were pretty upset. I remember a lot of people complaining (rightly so) about the removal of the plastic wings in favor of those stupid leather ones,not so much about the colorway or about the removal of the Nike Air. We knew back then that we would still have Nike Air on the OG colorways so most peopledidn't really care about the retro+ colorways not having it. Like someone else said, back then, the retro+ was meant to move the design of the shoe in awhole different direction which is why they opted for leather/no mesh. I think for that particular shoe/colorway it actually worked out well. The differencewas that they were intentionally designed to be DIFFERENT whereas the new retro+ colorways (and OG color retros for that matter) are obviously designed to beINFERIOR.
So yes, even back in 99 people didn't like JB effin with the OG design but we thought that we would at least be able to still get the OG's in theiroriginal form. Sadly, this turned out not to be true.

 

[bengleu22]

Originally Posted by sickickz23

I don't think those retro + 4s were the most hated. People just saw it as a different looking that JB was trying something new. A new look for the 4s, that did not resemble the OG 4 look. There was no hype back then and there was no anticipation for those 4s. As far as I can recall, they were still at the stores, months after the releases.


I do however, remember people getting heated all over the retro True Blue III's.

I don't think I've ever seen a post from you that didn't include the word "hype." I understand that you don't like people whoonly want shoes because they are hyped, but you seem to only like shoes that aren't hyped, which is basically the same thing. I personally don't worryabout hype. If I like them, I buy them, hype or no hype.

 

[bengleu22]

Originally Posted by mjmoney23

I have been wearing Jordans since the OG XII (I'm 22) and got into collecting around the time the Space Jams came out in 2000. This being said, I missed the 99 IV. I was wondering if there was alot of complaining and whining on here when the retro + IV with no netting and the Jumpman on the back came out. If these had not released in 99 and came out for the first time now, I think it's possible that these might have been the most hated Retro Jordan of all time. I really want to know how the older Jordan heads see/saw these releases. Also, as I said I started collecting during the XI retro, and bought a pair of the snakeskins. I remember these being received pretty well on here. If they were to come out for the first time today, do you think they would still be received so well?

I think this is a really well thought out post. I believe you have a good point that some of the older retro's that were well received then, wouldget destroyed by NikeTalkers if they were released today. The IV's with no netting were ALL garbage.

 

[mjmoney23]

William Rivera - The only reason I said the snakeskins is because they are very different from the other XI due to the lack of patent leather (ie notincluded). I myself still have my pair and love them to death. To me however, it seems that if they were released today for the first time, they would be hatedby the majority of Niketalk.

Sickkickz - I didnt mean that they were the most hated, I was asking if THEY RELEASED FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY if you think they would be amongst the mosthated due to their obvious differences.

Neptunes - I really liked your response, but dont you think that the idea of "reinventing" a retro would be considered horrible by today'sstandards? (look at the new olympic VI

)

Thanks Bengleu22

 

[sickickz23]

Originally Posted by bengleu22

Originally Posted by sickickz23

I don't think those retro + 4s were the most hated. People just saw it as a different looking that JB was trying something new. A new look for the 4s, that did not resemble the OG 4 look. There was no hype back then and there was no anticipation for those 4s. As far as I can recall, they were still at the stores, months after the releases.


I do however, remember people getting heated all over the retro True Blue III's.

I don't think I've ever seen a post from you that didn't include the word "hype." I understand that you don't like people who only want shoes because they are hyped, but you seem to only like shoes that aren't hyped, which is basically the same thing. I personally don't worry about hype. If I like them, I buy them, hype or no hype.

sickickz23 wrote:

---

I don't think those retro + 4s were the most hated. People just saw it as a different looking Jordan that resemble the 4s. It was different back then andthere was no anticipation for those 4s. As far as I can recall, they were still at the stores, months after the releases.


I do however, remember people getting heated all over the retro True Blue III's.


happy?

I understand that you don't like people who only want shoes because they are hyped, but you seem to only like shoes that aren't hyped, which is basically the same thing.
care to explain?

 

[bengleu22]

I've just noticed that every post of yours lately seems to be hype related. You apparently hate the people who only want shoes based on hype. I tend toagree with you on this point.

But I've seen a lot of your posts where you talk about Nike retros that you like because of the lack of hype (such as the latest Air Tech Challenge). Tome, that is no reason to like a shoe.

I know you have issues with JB's quality, and those are completely valid, but staying away from shoes because hypebeasts are drooling is not.

If a shoe is hyped like crazy and I like it, I'll still buy it. Your posts don't give me the impression you'd do the same.

And to clear it up, I'm not trying to pick a fight.

 

[ijapino]

The retro IV + wasn't exactly hated that much. Sure it was an unpopular decision to "alter" the look, but it was accepted simply for the factthat it wasn't a butchering of an OG colorway. The first few "Retro +" colorways were just that...An altering of a retro model. The downfall waswhen they started changing the OG colorways.

 

[neptunesfinest]

Originally Posted by mjmoney23

Neptunes - I really liked your response, but dont you think that the idea of "reinventing" a retro would be considered horrible by today's standards? (look at the new olympic VI

)

Thanks Bengleu22

You might be right, but I think the MAJORITY of people today would be happy if JB let the OG heads have their OG's and let the kids/hypebeasts havetheir clown shoes. I personally would. I was in High School from 99-02 and even back then I generally bought only the OG colorways with Nike Air on the back. (Even passed on the Olympic VI's

)The only retro+ I ever boughtwas the midnight blue IV's that you mentioned in your original post. I actually liked the design of that shoe, and I might add, the construction andcomfort of that shoe was top notch. They felt better than my white/cements and they lasted through years of abuse and outdoor ball use.
The difference, I think, between then and now is that now they basically try to pass of retro+ models as OG retros. The Mars and Militarys are NOT retros,they are retro+ models. Same goes for all the III's except the black/cements.
But back to your original point about this years Olympic VI's, just look at them compared to the 2000 version. The 2000 version was actually an inspireddesign that made sense. They kinda took the carmine route with those and I think they looked nice. The midnight IV's were also an inspired design which,I think, if you forgot about the OG IV's for a second, most people would probably like. These days they pump out any stupid combination that comes intotheir head or they put a bunch of laser etching on them and they call that design. That just about sums up all the wrong turns that JB has taken over the past7-8 years.

 

[william rivera 3]

Originally Posted by mjmoney23

William Rivera - The only reason I said the snakeskins is because they are very different from the other XI due to the lack of patent leather (ie not included). I myself still have my pair and love them to death. To me however, it seems that if they were released today for the first time, they would be hated by the majority of Niketalk.

I say wow because in retrospect it was extremely bold for JB to do this back then. I agree that it would be hated on by NikeTalk if they dropped2day. I had trouble finding a pair so settled for the 2nd PR Air Force Ones.

 

[sickickz23]

Sickickz - I didnt mean that they were the most hated, I was asking if THEY RELEASED FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY if you think they would be amongst the most hated due to their obvious differences.
Those retro + 4s were released when JB had a better direction of releasing their retroes, and shoes. So it's hard to compare a shoe from anera with nothing but GRs, to an era with Levis' packaging with Jordans. JB catered to do a different consumer back then as well.


I wouldn't say it started with those 4s also.

But let's say, if those + 4s were released today, then 99%, the overall quality, would resemble more of the shape of the CG IV's. Perhaps the bananashape as well. So taking those steps, yeah, the hatred would appear for the shoe.

The downfall was when they started changing the OG colorways.


agreed. not only replacing NA with the jumpman, but changing the look, and feel. Shape and mold.

 

[wozman23]

i wasn't seriously collecting then either, but i equate the situation to Family Guy.

The series was good before it got renewed. But the past few years have been a constant slow decline, and filled with meaningless unrelated jokes. And now icant even watch an old episode. Because everytime i do, i see all those little things that now annoy me, that i simply overlooked originally.

The same can be said for JB. The IVs may not have been hated then, but knowing what we know today, it definitely makes you wonder if releases like that are thereason JB has taken a turn for the worse.

 

[kings castle]

hmmmmmmmmmm ivs with no netting...i dont recall those can u post pics?

 

[sickickz23]

Originally Posted by bengleu22

I've just noticed that every post of yours lately seems to be hype related. You apparently hate the people who only want shoes based on hype. I tend to agree with you on this point.

But I've seen a lot of your posts where you talk about Nike retros that you like because of the lack of hype (such as the latest Air Tech Challenge). To me, that is no reason to like a shoe.

I know you have issues with JB's quality, and those are completely valid, but staying away from shoes because hypebeasts are drooling is not.

If a shoe is hyped like crazy and I like it, I'll still buy it. Your posts don't give me the impression you'd do the same.

And to clear it up, I'm not trying to pick a fight.

not every shoe I like is shared by that 4 letter word. Example. If the CD Hares will hold up on the quality, then I will buy em. And we all know allthe craziness that comes with the shoe. The quality is a big issue. Well it's the biggest for me.

The downfall or demise of JB is 50% of JB producing the lackluster shoes, and 50% of the buyers who buy the products.

Let's look at it from another example. Toyota, and Honda, year after year, have proven to be the top automakers for this country due to overall sales.It's no secret. Toyota and Honda has proven to be quality cars. They would not dare to compromise the quality and say, "hey these buyers will buyanything with a Toyota or Honda badge on it, so let's cut corners on some the cars. The consumer will never notice."

The consumers that buy cars are obviously much smarter than the consumer for JB. But looking at that example, the automakers Ford, Chrysler, and GM. They keepoffering money saving deals for the consumers to purchase their cars. Why are they doing that? Simple. Buyers are steadily declining, and they need to attractthem with enticing offers. You'd never see that with a car maker that is #1 in America.

"no matter what people say, these will sell out come release day" is a cop-out to me. Meaning, "what can I do about it. Nothing at all."One person voicing their disapproval is better than none. And then 2 turns into 3, 4 and so on. I want to see down the road, one day, that a butchered re-retroblack cement III's or butchered bordeaux retro VIIs, not sell out, and send a message to JB, that enough is enough. But sadly, a lot of people aremiseducated of the whole JB issue. Due to age, or whatever else the reason is.

"Oh well, there's nothing we can do about it. It is what it is. I'll just settle for these."

Is that still liking the shoe? Plus, who wins in the end?

That's like saying every print of the Mona Lisa should have sunglasses and a moustache on it, because, you know, we need to maintain the integrity of the original. If you can't own the original, why should you get the true experience? All of you who couldn't afford or weren't even alive when the originals came out don't DESERVE the true experience, right? You'll get cheap knockoffs and like it.

Nah, I don't think so.
from Meth

 

[fudoakira]

First off,
Sickickz23 has 0 credibilty. Where did you come from pal? Please go back.

If any older retro + IV came out now, I think NT people would act just like sickicks23 does. With pure criticism. We (me and my friends) always have been afterthe OG colors. But when a retro + came out, we didnt hate, you just get it if you like it.
When we first saw the jumpman instead of NA, we were like, "that sucks... but I dont really care"

I think the IV with no net was white with a little blue.

 

[sickickz23]

^ Just because i'm not a household name on NT doesn't mean that I have no valid points. Enjoy your countdown IV's.

 

[ao17]

Originally Posted by kings castle

hmmmmmmmmmm ivs with no netting...i dont recall those can u post pics?

 

[jordansponsorsme]

First off, I would just like to say that this is a great post and I enjoyed reading all of the replies. Early on, there was a distinct difference between theretro of an original colorway and a retro+ colorway. The retro's of original colorways were pretty much spot on and the retro+ colorways, although strayingfrom original color and design, were done tastefully. Nowadays, it's almost as if every retro is a retro+ colorway. Although some closely resembleoriginals in terms of the color scheme, most of the colorways are pretty ridiculous. It would be hard to say how the Air Jordan 4 Retro+ and Air Jordan 11 LowSnakeskin would be perceived today as times are different, but I think they were relatively well received when they were released. Unfortunately, the fact thatthese two models, as well as others, were well received may be the very reason why retro's are handled the way that they are today.

 

[jordansrmycrack]

Originally Posted by sickickz23

The downfall or demise of JB is 50% of JB producing the lackluster shoes, and 50% of the buyers who buy the products.

Let's look at it from another example. Toyota, and Honda, year after year, have proven to be the top automakers for this country due to overall sales. It's no secret. Toyota and Honda has proven to be quality cars. They would not dare to compromise the quality and say, "hey these buyers will buy anything with a Toyota or Honda badge on it, so let's cut corners on some the cars. The consumer will never notice."

The consumers that buy cards are obviously much smarter than the consumer for JB. But looking at that example, the automakers Ford, Chrysler, and GM. They keep offering money saving deals for the consumers to purchase their cars. Why are they doing that? Simple. Buyers are steadily declining, and they need to attract them with enticing offers. You'd never see that with a car maker that is #1 in America.

"no matter what people say, these will sell out come release day" is a cop-out to me. Meaning, "what can I do about it. Nothing at all." One person voicing their disapproval is better than none. And then 2 turns into 3, 4 and so on. I want to see down the road, one day, that a butchered re-retro black cement III's or butchered bordeaux retro VIIs, not sell out, and send a message to JB, that enough is enough. Bad sadly, a lot of people are miseducated of the whole JB issue. Due to age, or whatever else the reason is.

"Oh well, there's nothing we can do about it. It is what it is. I'll just settle for the these."

Excellent points. The Toyota/Honda analogy was dead on! They know American consumers love buying their cars b/c of their own reputation. Yes, if they "cutcorners", the American people would surely know about it. Why? Because they would be educated enough, in one way or another, to know the difference. Thetypical consumer for JB products, for the most part, do not know the difference. They just buy it b/c it has a Jumpman on it.

I'll give an example: My g/f's sister's husband bought his son some Jays to show off. He was like "yeah look at my boy. He's got theJordans on." I was like, "no, those are not Jordans......those are Big Funds." I schooled him on the numbered Jays thing (hopefully he knowsnow), but he thought if it had a Jumpman, they are Jordans regardless of design, quality, shape, and/or color. My point is even the retro numbered Jordans fallinto this category. Just b/c a shoe has a Jumpman on it, doesn't make it close to the OG Jordan shape/mold/quality numbered Jordan.

Let me give another analogy that we all can relate to. Take for instance toilet paper: At my work, toilet paper is supplied (thank goodness) but it's thecheap, rough, aloe-free, one-ply kind. If that was all I knew, then I would be great. However, I know of Charmin and love how soft and sturdy it feels when Iwipe. Being that I know of Charmin, I don't use the work toilet paper but use my own roll that I brought from home. This is equivalent to saying Jordan WASlike Charmin but now is like work toilet paper, which--by the way--appropriately belongs in the toilet along with most of these recent retro JB releases.Ultimately, the work toilet paper and current releases of JB shoes still are, indeed, toilet paper and JB shoes, but they are not at all like they used to be.

This is where the education part comes in. If the typical, average consumer that buys a numbered Jordan from time to time cannot tell the difference of a retrovs OG model (simply because they do not know any better), then of course JB is going to continue to make crappier shoes to save unnecessary costs and reap inmore greedy profits. Most companies do. Anyone remember health care 10 years ago? Same thing. Now we get worse care but at higher costs.

The fact of the matter remains that we are getting crappier Jordans that are altered with each release. And JB is doing it "because they can."It's no excuse--it's just pure fact. It won't change until people talk/write/post/voice out displeasure against JB's retro releases. And ifso-called petitions don't work, then people have to "talk" with their dollars. But simple economics will dictate JB's future. Supply vsDemand. If JB continues to make crap products but they still get bought, JB will keep on continuing to make them. It is people like Sickkickz and others thatshould voice out their dissatisfaction in an attempt to not only educate the ignorant masses, but to also have their disapproval of JB's tactics be heard.

Sadly, I believe JB is no longer a company of PRIDE but of GREED instead.

 

[indohan]

Forget "bastardization", NT didn't like XX3. Now they're uttering all the good words that you can find in the dictionary.

 

[sickickz23]

Originally Posted by JordansRMyCrack

Originally Posted by sickickz23

The downfall or demise of JB is 50% of JB producing the lackluster shoes, and 50% of the buyers who buy the products.

Let's look at it from another example. Toyota, and Honda, year after year, have proven to be the top automakers for this country due to overall sales. It's no secret. Toyota and Honda has proven to be quality cars. They would not dare to compromise the quality and say, "hey these buyers will buy anything with a Toyota or Honda badge on it, so let's cut corners on some the cars. The consumer will never notice."

The consumers that buy cards are obviously much smarter than the consumer for JB. But looking at that example, the automakers Ford, Chrysler, and GM. They keep offering money saving deals for the consumers to purchase their cars. Why are they doing that? Simple. Buyers are steadily declining, and they need to attract them with enticing offers. You'd never see that with a car maker that is #1 in America.

"no matter what people say, these will sell out come release day" is a cop-out to me. Meaning, "what can I do about it. Nothing at all." One person voicing their disapproval is better than none. And then 2 turns into 3, 4 and so on. I want to see down the road, one day, that a butchered re-retro black cement III's or butchered bordeaux retro VIIs, not sell out, and send a message to JB, that enough is enough. Bad sadly, a lot of people are miseducated of the whole JB issue. Due to age, or whatever else the reason is.

"Oh well, there's nothing we can do about it. It is what it is. I'll just settle for the these."

Excellent points. The Toyota/Honda analogy was dead on! They know American consumers love buying their cars b/c of their own reputation. Yes, if they "cut corners", the American people would surely know about it. Why? Because they would be educated enough, in one way or another, to know the difference. The typical consumer for JB products, for the most part, do not know the difference. They just buy it b/c it has a Jumpman on it.

I'll give an example: My g/f's sister's husband bought his son some Jays to show off. He was like "yeah look at my boy. He's got the Jordans on." I was like, "no, those are not Jordans......those are Big Funds." I schooled him on the numbered Jays thing (hopefully he knows now), but he thought if it had a Jumpman, they are Jordans regardless of design, quality, shape, and/or color. My point is even the retro numbered Jordans fall into this category. Just b/c a shoe has a Jumpman on it, doesn't make it close to the OG Jordan shape/mold/quality numbered Jordan.

Let me give another analogy that we all can relate to. Take for instance toilet paper: At my work, toilet paper is supplied (thank goodness) but it's the cheap, rough, aloe-free, one-ply kind. If that was all I knew, then I would be great. However, I know of Charmin and love how soft and sturdy it feels when I wipe. Being that I know of Charmin, I don't use the work toilet paper but use my own roll that I brought from home. This is equivalent to saying Jordan WAS like Charmin but now is like work toilet paper, which--by the way--appropriately belongs in the toilet along with most of these recent retro JB releases. Ultimately, the work toilet paper and current releases of JB shoes still are, indeed, toilet paper and JB shoes, but they are not at all like they used to be.

This is where the education part comes in. If the typical, average consumer that buys a numbered Jordan from time to time cannot tell the difference of a retro vs OG model (simply because they do not know any better), then of course JB is going to continue to make crappier shoes to save unnecessary costs and reap in more greedy profits. Most companies do. Anyone remember health care 10 years ago? Same thing. Now we get worse care but at higher costs.

The fact of the matter remains that we are getting crappier Jordans that are altered with each release. And JB is doing it "because they can." It's no excuse--it's just pure fact. It won't change until people talk/write/post/voice out displeasure against JB's retro releases. And if so-called petitions don't work, then people have to "talk" with their dollars. But simple economics will dictate JB's future. Supply vs Demand. If JB continues to make crap products but they still get bought, JB will keep on continuing to make them. It is people like Sickkickz and others that should voice out their dissatisfaction in an attempt to not only educate the ignorant masses, but to also have their disapproval of JB's tactics be heard.

Sadly, I believe JB is no longer a company of PRIDE but of GREED instead.

Thanks and great points as well.

sadly we are in the vast minority and maybe one day, that will all change.


"One persons perception of truth, is another persons perception of hate." Especially on NT