- Nov 14, 2012
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new testament.... NT
Pastor Creflow Dollar is asking for 60 million to purchase new G6 to spread the gospel across the gl
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by Proposition Joe,
- Start date
- Oct 10, 2013
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So you take the Bible literally, except in the event it's talking symbolically.
Of course the convenient part there is that anything can be dismissed as symbolic, but I'll run with that.
Literal except when symbolic. Got it.
Your thoughts, please:
I Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
You'll notice this is not in the OT. It's popular for people to dismiss the OT as something that didn't count anymore, because Jesus. But this is a NT verse, by the most prominent author of the NT.
I'm sure you want context... as if there's a proper context for a saint to proclaim that he doesn't permit women to speak:
Paul is giving instructions for how worship services are to take place. He states that women are to learn in quiet submission, because Adam was created first.
That.
Is utterly.
Reprehensible.
Next, I'm going to go to the OT, but not on anything that disrupts Jesus proclaimed new way:
Deuteronomy 22:28,29
(2If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, (29) he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
If a man RAPES A VIRGIN, his 'punishment' is that he must pay the father (because the FATHER was wronged), and he must now stay in a committed marriage to the woman he raped. Nevermind whether or not she wants to marry her rapist; she has no say.
There is no symbolism there.
The people who jotted those rules down are the same people who jotted down so many other rules that are being blindly followed.
And that's my main problem with religiously following something on faith and faith alone. Instead of critically reading something that doesn't make sense and thinking, "Wait, I don't knew about this one. That doesn't make sense," the blind religious think, "Well, that didn't make much sense to me... ...
... ... so I guess I need to adjust my thinking until it does make sense."
Exactly what I was talking about in the other thread. The bible doesn't start and stop with "be a good person. Share the truth!". There are parts that a literally swept under the rug or dismissed as symbolic. Now the question is what is what? The. The stale argument of "it's a mystery" get played. The bible speaks of dragons and talking donkeys as well as selling rape victims and banishing women for having short hair.
Just to give an example, I've read multiple interpretations for the verses in Leviticus regarding homosexuality, none of which are clearly the correct interpretation. I have to assume there are more examples of this throughout the Bible.
- Jan 25, 2013
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So you take the Bible literally, except in the event it's talking symbolically.
Of course the convenient part there is that anything can be dismissed as symbolic, but I'll run with that.
Literal except when symbolic. Got it.
Your thoughts, please:
I Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
You'll notice this is not in the OT. It's popular for people to dismiss the OT as something that doesn't count anymore, because Jesus. But this is a NT verse, by the most prominent author of the NT.
I'm sure you want context... as if there's a proper context for a saint to proclaim that he doesn't permit women to speak:
Paul is giving instructions for how worship services are to take place. He states that women are to learn in quiet submission, because Adam was created first.
That.
Is utterly.
Reprehensible.
Next, I'm going to go to the OT, but not on anything that disrupts Jesus' proclaimed new way:
Deuteronomy 22:28,29
(2
If a man RAPES A VIRGIN, his 'punishment' is that he must pay the father (because the FATHER was wronged), and he must now stay in a committed marriage to the woman he raped. Nevermind whether or not she wants to marry her rapist; she has no say.
There is no symbolism there.
The people who jotted those rules down are the same people who jotted down so many other rules that are being blindly followed.
And that's my main problem with religiously following something on faith and faith alone. Instead of critically reading something that doesn't make sense and thinking, "Wait, I don't knew about this one. That doesn't make sense," the blind religious think, "Well, that doesn't make much sense to me... ...
... ... so I guess I need to adjust my thinking until it does make sense."
Great questions man and I will try to give you the best Biblical answer I can provide for both of them.
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent which is not the case. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role, but are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This just restricts women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them. The book of 1 Corinthians also addresses your question for how God wants the church is set up and the roles of men and women in the church.
I think your question about rape can be found by going back a few verses. Exodus 22:16-17 says “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."
Together, these passages clearly state that if a man has sex with a virgin who is not betrothed (regardless of whether or not it was rape or consensual) he is obliged to marry her. He should have sought her father's permission first, negotiated a bride-price, and taken her as his wife. Because he did not, he is punished for this. He now must pay up and marry her which could be a major punishment in itself if this was a foolish, spur of the moment act and she really wasn't the right woman for him. I'm sure you know this, but it is clear during that time her father is ultimately in authority over her, as her head, until he hands this authority over to her husband. If the man is unsuitable to the father, the father can refuse to give his daughter to him. How many fathers would give their daughter to a rapist? Not many. Plus throughout the Old Testament no rape victim is ever recorded as being forced to marry a rapist. In that culture, a woman without a husband would have a very difficult time providing for herself. Unmarried women often had no choice but to sell themselves into slavery or prostitution just to survive. This is why the passage in verse 17 leaves marriage to the discretion of the father, because every situation is different, and it is better to be flexible than have a blanket rule.
Also note that the penalty for having sex with an unbetrothed virgin is completely different from the penalty for sex with a married or betrothed woman. Sex with a married or betrothed woman is adultery and was to be punished by the death of both if consensual, or the death of the man if it was rape (Deuteronomy 22:22-27).
And my explanation of literal and symbolic is no convenient or meant to be a cop out. It just explains certain passages where different literary forms are used like poetic metaphors or personification. Look at the example I gave earlier.
- Jan 25, 2013
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You would be correct if you are saying that each interpretation is different. As far as English versions, I have found that the King James and American Standard versions are the most literal interpretations. I can't speak for all versions, but the meaning should be the same in a particular passage across the board. Biblehub.com and the Bible app give multiple versions so you can compare what is being read.
- Jul 7, 2014
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How so when what you are reading basing your beliefs on is someone accounts of what someone believe they think the bible says... Your more or less based your faith and beliefs on hearsay... third party, he say she say, and passed down gossip... The contradiction is that the bible says beware of false prophets and people who claim and distort my words... yet your version of the bible clearly states thats what it is doing on the front cover...My beliefs come from the Bible. I am constantly reading and understanding it everyday to gain a deeper relationship of who God is. I believe the Bible is a revelation of who God partially is. He is evetlasting so it will take an eternity to fully know him. The Bible is just a highlight reel of him through time. I do feel confident in what the Bible says on the subject of salvation and heaven. It teaches salvation is a free gift for everyone, but only those who want to accept it will enter into heaven . God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5 -and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12; John 14:6).
Yes, I take the Bible literally except for the portions that are meant to be symbolic. Like we are not litterally apples in God's eye in Psalms 17:8. I do believe the events that are written about in the Bible did actually occur.
Your last question is difficult to answer because I need a specific example of what you are trying to ask. Like there were specific rules in the Old Testament for animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. Yet, this was done before Christ came in the New Testament and we no longer need the symbol of animal sacrifice when we now have the substance of sacrifice for sin in Jesus. So, even though there are specific rules for animal sacrifice, the Bible doesn't condone it now because now the whole revelation has been revealed for the forgiveness of sin.
It clearly says xxx... persons version. So arent you in a sense defying god? If he says follow my words, and not what others say, or claim. Then you read and lay claim to a edited, or rendition, a persons 3rd party version of his words and teachings.
And what about the 27 or so chapters/books that were removed in modern bibles? Are you telling me that around 150-200 years or so ago god came down and did a proofread/editing of his words and said you know what lets cut the fat and trim like 33% or so of the bible...its too long of a read and we need to make it "reader friendly".
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- Nov 5, 2012
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http://ffrf.org/donate
I just saw this commercial on CNN last night and...........
I think it's pretty safe to call atheism a religion now
I'm just curious to know where the money is going. To feed the hungry, clothing the impoverished, or helping troubled people gain peace of mind. I THINK NOT! Seeing that atheism cause seems to be soley about tearing down the beliefs of others, and helping no one.
Funny to me how the main message taking from Christianity is to live righteous, and help others; but atheism is clearly all about debunking, discrediting, trampling on the beliefs of others, and belittling. Yet you chose to support it, because it's the truth? How do you all know that? Where's your proof that there is no God? But I'm sure your superior logic doesn't allow you to see it that way.
I'm just curious to find out if one penny of this money is going to make it to real people in need regardless what they believe.
But I'm sure the agenda pushers will just skip right over this. Carry on
I just saw this commercial on CNN last night and...........
I'm just curious to know where the money is going. To feed the hungry, clothing the impoverished, or helping troubled people gain peace of mind. I THINK NOT! Seeing that atheism cause seems to be soley about tearing down the beliefs of others, and helping no one.
Funny to me how the main message taking from Christianity is to live righteous, and help others; but atheism is clearly all about debunking, discrediting, trampling on the beliefs of others, and belittling. Yet you chose to support it, because it's the truth? How do you all know that? Where's your proof that there is no God? But I'm sure your superior logic doesn't allow you to see it that way.
I'm just curious to find out if one penny of this money is going to make it to real people in need regardless what they believe.
But I'm sure the agenda pushers will just skip right over this. Carry on
fontaine
Banned
- Jul 5, 2013
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One website asking for donations makes atheism a religionhttp://ffrf.org/donate
I just saw this commercial on CNN last night and...........
I'm just curious to know where the money is going. To feed the hungry, clothing the impoverished, or helping troubled people gain peace of mind. I THINK NOT! Seeing that atheism cause seems to be soley about tearing down the beliefs of others, and helping no one.
Funny to me how the main message taking from Christianity is to live righteous, and help others; but atheism is clearly all about debunking, discrediting, trampling on the beliefs of others, and belittling. Yet you chose to support it, because it's the truth? How do you all know that? Where's your proof that there is no God? But I'm sure your superior logic doesn't allow you to see it that way.
I'm just curious to find out if one penny of this money is going to make it to real people in need regardless what they believe.
But I'm sure the agenda pushers will just skip right over this. Carry on
One website asking for = thousands of churches asking for money
That logic
mr marcus
Banned
- May 3, 2010
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Christianity is about righteousness? Bible belt is very religious and very ******* racist too
- Jul 7, 2014
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the irony of it all is that every major war/travesty in our world was/is directly or indirectly been caused by religion.... For something so good, how is it the reason for every war/evil known to man.
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Religion is a touchy subject but im just talkin about dis dude creflo.
Dudes really vouching 4 him loool
23,000 dollars on a toilet b?
- Nov 16, 2001
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Interesting. I might have to reconsider my history studies of the American Revolution, French Revolution, WWI & WWII.
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the principals and reasoning and thought processes were based on religious beliefs..... ala like slavery... Surely they didnt say we are going to enslave people in the name of jesus, but they justified it with passages that were in the bible, and they removed will, hope, and any resistance from slaves with the premise/beliefs in the bible...ala just sit back and god/jesus will come for you and save you etc...
Just as the wars that are going on now throughout the world... some are directly "religious wars" others are about other matters, but the reasoning thought process behind their conflicts is rooted in principals and beliefs associated with religion
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- Nov 5, 2012
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One website asking for donations makes atheism a religion
One website asking for = thousands of churches asking for money
That logic
One website.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ath...l4.6309j0j0&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
Sit yo as down boy.
Straight propaganda. I don't think I care to go into pointing out all the BS said in that post, to be real. Believe what you chose to believe about the man based of what propaganda pushers say. Instead of basing your assumptions off of the actual source.
Just about everything in that CNN clip was a lie extreme propaganda, or laughable. A republican speaking ill on misappropriation of funds wasteful
You guys keep up the bang up job. Got things to tend too.
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- Jul 7, 2014
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irony saying something is false all while promoting something as truth with 0 proof and absolutely no credibility. like i said before i can prove santa/easter bunny is real.... ill just copy paste a lines from rudolph and peter cotton tail...
One website.
s://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CAFA_enUS631US631&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=atheist+websites+asking+for+donations&spell=1
Sit yo as down boy.
Straight propaganda. I don't think I care to go into pointing out all the BS said in that post, to be real. Believe what you chose to believe about the man based of what propaganda pushers say. Instead of basing your assumptions off of the actual source.
Just about everything in that CNN clip was a lie extreme propaganda, or laughable. A republican speaking ill on misappropriation of funds wasteful
You guys keep up the bang up job. Got things to tend too.
If anything it should be seen as valid even by your own words.... who would know better about someone misappropriate funds then someone who does it themselves... ala a drug addict would know more about being strung out on drugs then someone who never even smoked weed.
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- Jul 7, 2014
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I ask this in particularly to black people... How has christianity improved, advanced, progressed african americans as a whole, as oppose to the life that was had (ala back before coming to america and adopting christianity) before adaptation of christianity.
And i mean overall not these cant be proven possibly made up individual accounts...ala i was without a job i prayed and then a employer called and i got a job...or my grandma was diagnosed with cancer and had 3 months to live, i prayed and no she still living bs. I mean black people overall as a whole.
And i mean overall not these cant be proven possibly made up individual accounts...ala i was without a job i prayed and then a employer called and i got a job...or my grandma was diagnosed with cancer and had 3 months to live, i prayed and no she still living bs. I mean black people overall as a whole.
- Nov 16, 2001
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I guess you have a very broad definition of "religion" because the Bible has a very different definition of slavery than the western world practiced for its history.
If we really want to say all wars were started by "religion", we should probably just classify money as a religion since we can trace almost every conflict back to that. I.E. Germany was Bankrupt prior to WWII, Japan was running out of natural resources prior to Pearl Harbor. The South would have been decimated without slave labor (which it was). The American Colonies were irate about being taxes as second rate citizens. The French were indignant about the aristocracy of the time.
If we want to vilify "religion", we should also mention William Wilberforce also used his Biblical teaching to outlaw slave trade in the British empire, which started the path we took towards the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation.
- Jan 13, 2015
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but the fact remains that there are exceptions to you argument, which means that it is indeed you who are still wrong.
Lets take another example: Wisdom is a shelter as money is a shelter, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves those who have it.--Eccl 7:12.
Like I stated earlier the discussion is more nuanced than you're making it seem. Plus http://niketalk.com/t/622055/pastor...the-gospel-across-the-globe/420#post_22915102 gave a broader context for you to consider.
- Jul 7, 2014
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true but it was still used for evil... giving examples of how it was used for good doesnt nullify it has been used for evil... That would be like me saying guns arent used for evil/wrong because i used one to prevent someone from breaking into my house... so therefore guns are for protection and not used for wrong.
As far as money goes money is more of a religion then any so called religion ever was... More people use it, need it, revolve their lives around it, praise worship and hold in high regards money and or things money provides/brings. More people willing to live and die and base their lives beliefs, principals, and day to day living around it then any religion.
- Jan 13, 2015
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Great points and something I alluded to earlier. Human conflict is very complex and many human factors come into play.
Why religion gets the greater blame, and justifiably so, is because of the hypocrisy of its message. Wherein religion is supposed to claim oneness and peace, togetherness etc religious faction condone war and other attrocities in spite of the message they are supposed to proclaim (e.g. catholic church and germany, rwanda, aspects of islam and the conflict in middle east, jewish state of israel etc)
So the discussion is more nuanced than a lot of people give it credit for, let alone on internet forums.
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and btw im not villifying it moreso as im painting the entire picture, playing the song in its entirety, not just the portions or parts to support my person investment in my beliefs. Religion is just like anything else as i stated... like a weapon or even like better yet fire. Fire can be used for good ala for warmth light etc.... it can equally be used to torture burn and destroy as well.
All im saying is just because you may not personally use it for those things, that doesnt negate, dismiss, or discredit the fact it can be and is used for those wrongs. And to say oh thats not true because you dont do it.... that only represents a individual, and cant be used to summarize what something is/has been used for as a whole.
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But with all that being said, Creflo been a crook.
don't matter if he gifted someone a turkey or hooked someone up with a job, nino brown did the same thing.
don't matter if he gifted someone a turkey or hooked someone up with a job, nino brown did the same thing.
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lol right just like donald sterling isnt prejudice or racist because he celebrated black history month every year at the staple center...
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And again no one has yet to address and answer my original question...
How is it if a person again lets say... they claim/profess to be drug free/sober living... yet in still smokes/drinks hangout at bars.. Will be chastised and seen as a fraud and not being honest... ala still a addict.
Yet a person can claim/profess to practice and follow (insert any religion)... yet violate, dismiss parts of the religion, and and not follow/truly practice said religion... But arent seen as a fraud or disingenuous and can still claim they are what they say they are despite their actions directly conflict what they claim to be?
How is it if a person again lets say... they claim/profess to be drug free/sober living... yet in still smokes/drinks hangout at bars.. Will be chastised and seen as a fraud and not being honest... ala still a addict.
Yet a person can claim/profess to practice and follow (insert any religion)... yet violate, dismiss parts of the religion, and and not follow/truly practice said religion... But arent seen as a fraud or disingenuous and can still claim they are what they say they are despite their actions directly conflict what they claim to be?
darthska
Staff member
- Apr 30, 2004
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Skip right over it? don't accuse people of skipping over something, and then when you get a reply that you don't like, hit people with the "I've got things to tend to" line. It just screams, "I shouldn't be taken too seriously, because I don't take myself seriously."http://ffrf.org/donate
I just saw this commercial on CNN last night and...........
I'm just curious to know where the money is going. To feed the hungry, clothing the impoverished, or helping troubled people gain peace of mind. I THINK NOT! Seeing that atheism cause seems to be soley about tearing down the beliefs of others, and helping no one.
Funny to me how the main message taking from Christianity is to live righteous, and help others; but atheism is clearly all about debunking, discrediting, trampling on the beliefs of others, and belittling. Yet you chose to support it, because it's the truth? How do you all know that? Where's your proof that there is no God? But I'm sure your superior logic doesn't allow you to see it that way.
I'm just curious to find out if one penny of this money is going to make it to real people in need regardless what they believe.
But I'm sure the agenda pushers will just skip right over this. Carry on
But
@ requiring proof while clinging to a belief system that has absolutely no proof to any of it's claimsNext up: your mockery of the FFRF's donations. First off, do you have any idea where the donations go? You might want to look into that before throwing shade. At the very least, it will make you appear thorough. Most of us know you're not, but at least the appearance will be there, and one thing I learned from my years in the church is this: appearance is everything.
Hell, that's why people wear their Sunday best. It ain't to look best for the god concept; it's to impress each other. Fact. So look into things a little further, that way you can appear intelligent and thorough. 
Lastly, if the main message of Christianity is living righteous and helping others, why are you not posting anything about helping anyone? If that's the main message... and so few do it... then that's not the main message. Or it is the main message, but Christians are terrible at executing it, which would mean the religion itself is flawed if a majority of it's followers don't even carry out it's basic concepts.
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