[::OFFSEASON OVER. Lock Please.::]

[CP1708]

I know you weren't saying trade them, but the comparison is similar. Asik is cheap and effective compared to Dwight, same as Allen is to Kobe. That was my point.

I wasn't excited for him to get tossed, but it didn't bother me either. He was getting pounded and then they would call touch fouls on him, or offensive fouls. I'd be bent too. But I didn't see it as him punking out, that would imply something to be lost/gained imo.

Getting tossed in game 7 in OT = punked out.
Getting tossed down 3-0, by 20 at half, with 6 available players = inevitable L with or without.

Of the 6 available, one just back from hip surgery, another had wrist surgery 2 days later.

That ain't punking out.

 

[licensed to ball]

Asiks actual tangible skill level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwights "ceiling"

obviously I was being facetious about signing drew to the max, but thats how I feel after this season with dwight.

Sure he came off surgery, had some kind of labrum issue and played through it but you CANT assume he is going to be back to his old self next year, you can be setting yourself up as well as him to fail big time.

This could be it, this could be the new dwight going forward, you have to be prepared for that....and as far as risk management goes, you have to automatically assume he will come back (if he does) exactly the same...with that being said...would you pay MAX money for the dwight we had THIS season?

Dwight is great, but for MAX money we need someone who can get a bucket anytime....cant have a franchise player disappear in the clutch, just cant.

Glad to see I'm not lonely on an Island with my thoughts. Although I think we need to sign Dwight because we need him as an asset, I don't necessarily think he deserves it. He's not a max contract player, he's a max contract "talent." There's a difference. And while we wait for his talent to reach its "ceiling," I see a lot of the same play from Dwight in the near future. He's going to disappoint many of you who have such high faith in him, that's the truth.

Again, I know we have to sign him. We need him to be frank, and we have to build around his talent or else were lottery bound for the next 5 years. But the fact is we have to give him a max contract because we're left with no better option, not because he deserves it.

He's going to give his 20/10/2. That's great, but will it be enough to take us to the promise land? Most likely not. If it is of course ill be happy and proud, at this point I just don't see how he hasn't improved his offensive game after all these summer sessions with Hakeem and Kareem and Ewing. I don't see how his "ceiling" hasn't gotten close yet.

But we'll see.
Maybe you're right cp, maybe he needs a full summer of rest and work with our system. Maybe he was held back by his back and shoulder. Maybe he hasn't been able to really show us what he has, I'm with you. I hope so. I don't "want" the guy to fail, I just haven't seen much improvement from his post game to say he's getting closer to being what everyone says he can be, you know?

But I hope you're right CP. I hope he proves me wrong. I want him to be successful if he's with us, I want to win.

But lets see if he even wants to be here. A lot of people are putting faith into the guy when there's a high probability he doesn't even care about us Laker fans and he could be ditching us within 2 months.
Then we'll see who defends him.

But I hope he stays, and beasts. I really do. I want the best for us. But the best for us is someone who wants to be here to begin with. If his hearts not with LA then why am
I gonna have so much faith in him? Lets see what he does

 

[CP1708]

You also need to realize, him beasting is not offensively, its defensively, with a few 18-20 point night's added in.

Dwight is a defensive great player, like how Melo is a offensive great player. But Dwight can add those 20, Melo can't add 5 steals and 4 blocks, etc.

 

[darthska]

Compare Asik's best season w/ Dwight last season.

Also, I'm feeling Daye a's Garcia, no doubt. Definitely Garcia.

HELL HECK* no to Delfino.

*is 'heck' profanity, girlslovewaffles?

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

We're really going to argue that Dwight isn't elite/has no heart because he came back earlier than expected from an injury and still produced like a top center?

**** out of here.

 

[licensed to ball]

Dwight adds those 20 through put backs and alley oops. If the balls not falling in his hands near the rim, he can't consistently score.

Melo is paid to score 30/night. And in most cases those 30/night will win their team games (like they have this season).

You think 3 blocks, 2 steals, and 10 rebounds is enough to win games? (On his own, w/o Kobe or another scorer carrying the load)

Maybe so with the right pieces.

You think that's worth a max contract though? I don't think so.

Again, I understand his talent warrants a max contract in this economic climate of the NBA. And I understand we're in a position where we need to give it to him to have any chance of a successful rebuilding post-Kobe era. But do I personally feel he deserves Max Dollars? No.

It is what it is, were in a difficult strangle hold of a position. We have no choice.
It's sad but it's true.
Gotta pay the guy and at the very least have him as an asset, you can't get assets like him everyday.

But at this very moment, he doesn't deserve it. I stand by that.

Maybe in a year if his offensive game improves, ill be proven wrong. I hope so. I hope he earns every penny, I want him to succeed if he commits to us.
Ill be supportive in every way, but ill also be honest.

Right now tho, at this very moment, with him being a complete liability in the most important minutes of the game, he doesn't deserve 118 million dollars.
Not in my humble opinion. Not right this moment.


And one last time, I know...we need him, so we have to sign him. I just wish we DIdnt "have" to. But lets see what he does.

 

[pmatic]

Why does clutch play have to be defined by scoring? It should also be defined by anchoring the defense and completing defensive stops with rebounds. And with that in mind, it should be pointed out that in the last five minutes of a game, with the score within five points, the Lakers had a Defensive Rating of 91.2 points. Dwight also had a defensive rebounding rate of 25% (!), which is pretty good given how many times he was out of position because of the crappy perimeter defense.

And just for kicks, the Offensive Rating while he was on the floor during this time deemed "clutch" was 112 points and he a 61.8% True Shooting Percentage.

*Shrugs*

 

[licensed to ball]

We're really going to argue that Dwight isn't elite/has no heart because he came back earlier than expected from an injury and still produced like a top center?

**** out of here.

I can't give a personal humble opinion about him?

I didn't know we had relatives of Dwight on the board. Why so angry that I'm being constructive about his game?

Are we all supposed to agree on everything? Are we supposed to kiss Dwight's butt and pretend his game is perfect?

I don't get how what I'm saying is so irrational. I know he produced Jesus Christ. All I'm saying is I expect more of an offensive arsenal for a top center.

You act like I'm the only one sayin this ****. Analysts and former lakers like Magic and JAmes worthy, Shaq say the same **** everyday on national tv.
He's the most talented center in the damn league, but he's not playing up to his talent level offensively.

Yet I'm crazy for saying it.

Man. **** it.

Dwight's the best Big man with no flaws. He deserves every penny, he'll carry us to 3 championships when Kobe retires.

Happy everyone? *shrugs*

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

Come on, man. You just listed "analysts" like Magic and Shaq to prove your point...

Dwight is going to give you best possible defensive presence in the interior that you can get in the league. He's always in shape, always plays hard (whether he's effective all the time is another argument), demands a concentrated effort from other teams which helps out everyone on his team. I'm willing to bet a lot of skeptics in here are going to be eating some crow next season when he's not returning months early from an injury.

 

[licensed to ball]

P It's so much more than numbers and stats bro. At least to me.

Look how many people in our league score 20+ points and don't positively impact their team enough to win. Look at how many great rebounders and defenders there are in the league, are they all deserving of max contracts? If it was all about the numbers I'd discuss the numbers.

I'm sure the +\- is a lot better when he's in the game as opposed to out. I'm sure he's efficient, I'm sure he produces...I know he does.

But why is it so unfair to expect more out of him offensively than the put backs and alley oops he scores to get those 20? When he catches the ball an tries to go to the basket awkwardly and throws up a weird looking brick of a hook no one cringes? When he's constantly stripped of the ball in the post no one notices? When he tries to do his predictable shake and spin hook no one ever wonders if he'll do anything else?

You guys are honestly sitting there saying you've had no problems with him trying to create his own shot in the post all season long?

I'm just saying I want to see him improve that aspect of his game. I want him to earn his 118 million by having a better ability to score the basketball without being assisted.

That's all. I'm not saying his defense isn't appreciated, I love the impact it makes.
He's a multiple DPOY winner for a reason. He's makes an impact, he's a great player, GREAT. I value him. I know we need him. Like I said, we have to sign him.
We HAVE to.

But he has a lot of improving to do offensively if he's going to carry this team once Kobe's gone. A lot.

That's all I'm saying.

Why am I the only one discussing the cons to his game? Everyone has them.

It's not like I think Dwight's the only player in the NBA who needs work.
Many do. But we're discussing Dwight because our team is going to be negotiating with him.

I can list 50 other dudes in the league that don't deserve their money and why.
But I'm only discussing Dwight because he's relevant to our team. It's not personal. I don't get why we can break down the positives and negatives of every other player on our team, but I can't discuss the negatives in Dwight's game fairly without people rolling their eyes.

Why is he off limits from criticism? Because
He can't handle the spot light? I don't know man.

 

[pmatic]

I'm aware his post skills are underwhelming and that's why his resistance to being placed in a pick and roll system is so head scratching. But there's no question a healthy Dwight Howard is a max contract player. When healthy, he's one of a few of players that can alter a team's championship aspirations (LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul being the others).

 

[licensed to ball]

Fair enough, as long as you were able to understand what I was trying to convey, then I can accept and understand what you believe.

All in all, like I've said I hope he proves me wrong and plays better offensively once he's fully healthy. I want him to succeed if he's with us.

I was jus scratching my head at how no one was willing to acknowledge his underwhelming post game.

We'll see if he's even worth debating about once he "decides" what he wants to do.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

Dwight is going to give you best possible defensive presence in the interior that you can get in the league. .

This is true...

but he becomes DeAndre Jordan in the fourth...

he becomes a LIABILITY on offense, as long a hack-a-dwight is legal....its going to be a MAJOR weakness in his game. And its not like u can just go to someone else in the fourth for points because there just going to KEEP SENDING HIM TO THE LINE.

By the time the 2 minute rule comes into effect, the damage is done, momentum is shattered.

The team almost has to play extra harder in the first 3 quarters to give them a "cushion" going into the fourth....you cant win this way man, no matter how good your defense is....you still need to score, throwing dwight on the line totally negates our ability to score in the fourth, totally...even with kobe bryant on the floor.

How you that bad on offense you render our best offensive player useless in the process?????????

I dont remember, but did we hack dwight in 09 finals?

 

[SORIANOTRON]

But there's no question a healthy Dwight Howard is a max contract player. When healthy, he's one of a few of players that can alter a team's championship aspirations (LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul being the others).

disagree, they can hit free throws.

If anything he alters the teams chances in a negative way.

discuss.

 

[pmatic]

Intentionally fouling a player to put them on the line isn't that bad as long as you keep the defense steady. If Dwight keeps up his 50% rate from the line, that's an entire point per possession (for the season, the Lakers averaged .94 points per possession and the Heat led the league in points per possession at 1.01). So, yeah. Plus it gives you the advantage of setting up the defense.

 

[licensed to ball]

Soriano thanks for making me feel a little better about being the lone wolf making these points on Dwight. I was starting to wonder if I was crazy debating 8 people on my own

I agree with most of what you're saying, but P's made a few good points too himself.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="L2B"]You think 3 blocks, 2 steals, and 10 rebounds is enough to win games?[/quote]Like some wise dude recently said...[quote name="L2B"]It's so much more than numbers and stats[/quote]

 

[girlslovewaffles]

The thing is, you guys are only looking at the Hack-a-Dwight scenario one way, which is how it dictates our offense. 50% from the line, when fouled intentionally and continuously, isn't that bad. As someone posted above, a point per possession is pretty good. Another thing is, it really limits transition points for the opposition, which has been our Achille's heel all season.

Hack-a-Dwight gives you a lot and only really takes one thing away, and that's momentum.

 

[girlslovewaffles]

[quote name="L2B"]You think 3 blocks, 2 steals, and 10 rebounds is enough to win games?

Like some wise dude recently said...[quote name="L2B"]It's so much more than numbers and stats[/quote][/quote]

 

[darthska]

people aren't saying that Dwight is above criticism. We all remember Dwightmare, remember the clowning around, the disappearing act in some games... but he's still an asset.

Is a 'league MVP candidate' asset? Kobe, Bron, Paul? No way.

but anyone who criticizes him to the point where he's on that Madsen/Turiaf level... chiiilllll.

we will be fine w/o him... or we'll do well w/ him.

 

[licensed to ball]

[quote name="L2B"]You think 3 blocks, 2 steals, and 10 rebounds is enough to win games?

Like some wise dude recently said...[quote name="L2B"]It's so much more than numbers and stats[/quote][/quote]

Um. Are you insinuating a contradiction?

I said that there's so much more to it numbers. And then I went on to discuss why, so many more things than numbers matter, for paragraphs an paragraphs and....

More paragraphs.

So, where's the contradiction? I didn't say numbers don't matter, they do, which is why i discussed them for a short (very short paragraph)...but I said there's "more to it than numbers," and then I elaborated on it for...

Paragraphs. A lot of them. Discussing what I look for out of players like Dwight besides numbers.

Did I not?

 

[CP1708]

Fair enough, as long as you were able to understand what I was trying to convey, then I can accept and understand what you believe.

All in all, like I've said I hope he proves me wrong and plays better offensively once he's fully healthy. I want him to succeed if he's with us.

I was jus scratching my head at how no one was willing to acknowledge his underwhelming post game.

We'll see if he's even worth debating about once he "decides" what he wants to do.

What I don't get is why you are only worried what he does on offense.

Kobe has been a star on offense the last 3-4 years and done nothing on defense outside of roam and occasionally get pissed off and hound someone.

Dwight is the opposite. He's a star on defense that does more on offense than Kobe has on defense the last few years.

So why do you want more on offense only?

A healthy Dwight is the best defensive player in the game, bar none. If we get him back healthy, he completely revamps a defense. Our problem has been, we have too many guys that can't help him. Nash and Pau are DONE defensively, and Kobe is not far behind. He at least will show up a game or two when he wants to lock someone up. (usually All Star games )

If Pau is dealt for a couple of wing defenders, guess what? Dwight bolsters them, and transforms our whole team. Put it this way, if 2011 Dwight played in 2001 with that Kobe, that Horry, that Fox, that Fisher, we would never allow a bucket in a single game. Never. We'd win games 80 to nothing.

Surely you know that's a stretch, but you see the point. That Fisher/Kobe/Fox/Horry help defense with Dwight cleaning up would destroy every team ever. Shaq got boards, he blocked shots, but he wasn't hedging out to the 3 point line and then getting back to the rim, no way. Dwight can. (sorry, healthy Dwight can) Dwight gets MORE blocks and rebounds than Shaq did back then despite being much smaller, difference is Dwight is athletically ridiculous.

Dwight will never be the offensive force Shaq was, but he CAN be the same force, just on the opposite side of the ball. This just wasn't that year. Not with his health, or with the guys defending around him. Dwight will always need someone to carry the offense, especially late in games, just like Shaq did, only Shaq did much more work in the first 3 quarters offensively. Honestly, 2010 Dwight and 2002 Kobe would be an even better matchup/fit than Shaq/Kobe was. Monsters on defense, Kobe would have carried the O with the assist from Dwight. That's a nightmare duo right there. 23 year old Kobe and 23 year old Dwight in a pick and roll would be ****** stupid. The league would quit. With Horry as the stretch 4? Just unfair.

But that's not how time works. Would have been fun tho.

 

[licensed to ball]

I understand CP.
but to answer your question "why do I expect so much out of him on offense?"

Well lets see. Maybe because Kobe injured his Achilles? Maybe because he might not ever be the same? Maybe because even if he comes back next season as 90% of Kobe,
There's a strong chance it's his last season.
Maybe because Dwight wants it to be his team and run around him. He asks for it. He has complained about touches many times, MANY TIMES.
So you're asking me why it's a big deal his offense is lacking? Maybe because he is demanding offensive touches but can't do anything with them 10 feet away from the basket? Maybe because in 2 years if he is indeed our franchise player and Kobe is gone, there will be no more 30 points a game to rely on from Kobe. There will be no more Nash.
There will be no more Pau.

It will be Dwight and company. And at that point are you really asking me why it's
Important that he has a better offensive game
When he will be the focal point of our team on both ends?

Really? it's not important for him to be able to create points with no more Kobe/Pau/Nash? That's our future bro. Our future franchise player, and you're telling me his defense will impact the game enough to win without our scorers once they're gone?

So is the ball just magically going to go
Into the basket for us? Or is someone going to have to score.
Because Dwight's demanding touches, and he wants the ball. He's not hiding from offense, he's asking for it. You don't think someone who will be asking and receiving the bulk of the offense (as well as a bulk of our salary cap) should be accountable for improving their offensive game?

 

[SORIANOTRON]

The thing is, you guys are only looking at the Hack-a-Dwight scenario one way, which is how it dictates our offense. 50% from the line, when fouled intentionally and continuously, isn't that bad. As someone posted above, a point per possession is pretty good. Another thing is, it really limits transition points for the opposition, which has been our Achille's heel all season.

Hack-a-Dwight gives you a lot and only really takes one thing away, and that's momentum.

View media item 392700

50% isnt that bad??????? So your willing to take a 1 point possession in the fourth every time down until 2 mins left?????

Dude, you NEED TO SCORE TO WIN. You can win games w/o defense if you can put up more points than the other team.

If you cant score, you loose every time 100% of the time.

 

[darthska]

L2B, yes, I read the paragraphs. All of them. But I didn't feel the need to quote all of your paragraphs when the flaw I saw in your argument could be found in two snippets of everything you said.

your entire argument is built on undermining his defensive presence and amplifying his underwhelming offinsive limited skill set. both the undermining of his defense and the concern for his offense can be supported with stats and numbers... And nothing else. so yes, its contradictory to make that argument and also make the statement "numbers don't matter that much to me. I know there's more to it than that."