* Offiical NBA Off-Season Thread: I'll give one of my damn kidney's for these Melo rumors to stop *

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Along with hipsters (
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) we have hippies. Believe it or not, people up here did use bikes before these hipster $@% holes infected us.
It's just everyone outside of Portland... and in North Portland... and on the eastside of Portland... that are white trash. There's a good 34 of us who arent
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CP included (as an honorary Oregonian
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).

I will say that everyone in Oregon has white trash tendencies though. We love our guns and beer.
 
Don't let OKB see this...
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Spoiler [+]
While New York and the rest of the NBA world were anticipating his decision, Chris Bosh dealt with the attention by "playing with people's emotions."

"If you think about how many times somebody asks you, 'How are you,' that's how many times I was asked, 'Where you going?" said Bosh, who was in Manhattan Wednesday to unveil his Got Milk! advertisement. "So it's like, well, in my case, I'm going to have fun with it. I'm going to play with people's emotions. I'm going to be high and low."

Link
 
Here's the thing that irks me with Bird and Simmons constant hype of him.

Dude never defended his title.  And say whatever you want, that means something. 

All of you that read that book, look where he placed, Bird, McHale, Parish and especially Dennis Johnson.  And yet, they couldn't go back to back.  They were the Spurs of the 80's. 

Throw in the college game, and Magic repeatedly got over on Bird. 


All of that passing angle/see the court, blah blah blah that Bill and JA speak of with Bird is true in a sense, however, even Bill brought it up briefly, and then bailed out on it, the athleticism was not up to par yet.  Bird got away with passes and angles and smarts because there were no Scottie Pipper types, Trevor Ariza, Kevin Garnett, Shane Battier, Tony Allen, guys like this that could go from side to side of a court in 3 steps, or with those long rangy arms/legs that would destroy all those "angles" and passes that Bird made.  I mean, honestly sit back and look at a team of Walton, McHale, Bird, Ainge on the court at the same time.  Anyone wanna guess how those Pacers (whoops) would fair today?  Good right?  Fundamental right?  They gonna dominate and get over on the athletes of today?  @#$% no.  Just look at who gave Bird the most fits, Michael Cooper who was ahead of his time, and then came Dennis Rodman (before he was crazy, when he was a rangy skinny 6-10 fast athlete) Those were the guys that gave Bird the most trouble.  Shocker?  Nope, not at all. 

I laughed out loud every time Simmons went on and on about Bird and his "passing ability" and he just sort of glossed over Magic the whole time.  I hate getting into stuff like this because I don't want it to turn into a homer discussion, but Magic defined the passing game in the 80's.  Give me a break.  Not that Bird wasn't a good passer, but to hype the @#$% out of him for 400 pages and hardly even cover it with Magic is PURE bias and transparent as all hell. 
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I give respect to Larry because he deserves it.  Dude was a great great player.  I have no problem with him being in the top 5 for now, but in a few years, I know for a fact he'll start dropping down into the 8-9-10 range as crazy as that may sound.  But if Kobe finishes strong, if LeBron does what I'm told he will, and if Duncan finds a way to make a jump somehow, that's 3 playing right now.  Who knows when and where the next kid comes from.  Durant, D Rose, Dwight Howard, I don't know.  But somebody will.  MJ isn't going anywhere, Russell won't, KAJ won't, Magic may slide a spot of two but 9 finals in 12 years is tough to beat.  Too bad Magic wasn't able to give us 3-4 more years. 
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Shaq may have been better then Duncan, but Duncan is going to MAX out his career.  Every drop of it.  Can you say the same for Shaq?  Hell no you can not.  There's a reason he was swept SIX TIMES in his playoff career.  He was too lazy too many damn times in his career.  If he had the drive that others had, this would ALL be mute, MJ would be 1, and Shaq would be 2.  It's that simple.  But Shaq didn't have that.  He @#$%^& around too damn much.  So for that, I would be ok with Duncan over Shaq if people voted it that way.  I wouldn't complain at all. 
 
I have to read through his list again this weekend and soak it in a bit more. I saw a lot wrong with that list the first time. As of right now I'd put Shaq ahead of Duncan.
 
More than half the teams in the NBA make the playoffs each season, but that still leaves 14 teams on the outside looking in. After all the shakeups this summer, it's likely at least one of the outsiders from 2009-10 will earn a postseason berth next season, so we've ranked the franchises below in order of 2011 playoff probability. Cheer up, Rockets fans, your future is bright.

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[h3]1. Houston Rockets (2009-10 record -- 42-40)[/h3]
Without franchise pillars Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming, it was supposed to be a lost season in Houston. Instead, the Rockets admirably turned it into a winning one, going 42-40 and finishing ninth in the Western Conference.

If Yao, a seven-time All-Star, returns to form this season (and that's a Yao-sized if), don't be surprised when the Rockets catapult back into the top tier of the NBA. The roster has been tailored around the big center with strong complementary pieces, including one of the league's most efficient shot-creators in Kevin Martin and disciplined wings in Shane Battier and Courtney Lee. All things considered, the Rockets have the highest ceiling of last season's non-playoff crop.

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[h3]2. New Orleans Hornets (2009-10 record -- 37-45)[/h3]
Last time we checked, Chris Paul still plays for them. In 2009-10, the Hornets were 23-22 with Paul (healthy or not) and 14-23 without their franchise cornerstone. Not unlike the Rockets, whether or not the Hornets make the playoffs next season depends on the health of their star player. And, front office turnover aside, the Hornets have an exciting young nucleus in the backcourt.

Rookie 2-guard Marcus Thornton dropped 20.4 points per game over the last two months of the season and, with Morris Peterson and his $6.7 million expiring contract in Oklahoma City, it's Thornton's time to shine. New acquisition Trevor Ariza allows the Hornets to mix-and-match at the 3 spot; they can run-and-gun with Ariza or get perimeter punch in the halfcourt with Peja Stojakovic. It's worth noting that the lineup featuring Paul, Thornton, Stojakovic, David West and Emeka Okafor outscored opponents about 13 points per 100 possessions last season, lending credence to the idea that Stojakovic can still contribute.

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[h3]3. New York Knicks (2009-10 record -- 29-53)[/h3]
Looking over the past 10 seasons, 40 wins is the cut to punch a ticket to the Eastern Conference playoffs. An 11-win improvement may seem a tall order, but after adding Amar'e Stoudemire, Raymond Felton, Anthony Randolph, Kelenna Azubuike and Ronny Turiaf, the Knicks are a prime candidate to fill the likely vacant spot left by the Cleveland Cavaliers.

With all the new faces in Madison Square Garden, it's easy to overlook Danilo Gallinari's potential for a breakout season. According to adjusted plus/minus data from basketballvalue.com, Gallinari was the most vital Knick last season, posting a team-high 4.4, indicating the Knicks were 4.4 points better than their opponents every 100 possessions when the Rooster graced the court. Just 22 years old, the sharpshooter should thrive with Stoudemire and Felton distracting the defense with pick-and-rolls.

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[h3]4. Memphis Grizzlies (2009-10 record -- 40-42)[/h3]
The Grizzlies are banking that organic player development alone will push them into the playoffs next season. Tony Allen was the marquee addition to their roster this summer, but there's enough youth on this squad to expect some internal growth; Hasheem Thabeet, O.J. Mayo, Mike Conley and Rudy Gay will all be 24 or younger next season.

The Grizzlies' young core was remarkably healthy last season, but some growing pains can't be ruled out for 2010-11. If everything shakes right, Memphis could enter into winning territory, but the ceiling isn't much higher than last season's 40-win campaign.

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[h3]5. Indiana Pacers (2009-10 record -- 32-50)[/h3]
The Pacers did a pretty good job masking their punchless offense by playing at breakneck speed last season. The second-fastest offense in the NBA won't slow down in 2010-11 but it will be infinitely more potent with lightning-fast Darren Collison firmly in the pilot's seat.

The Pacers will struggle to fill the rebounding void left by Troy Murphy, but they can address that down the road. Indiana probably won't see huge dividends next season, but in one move, its future just got a whole lot brighter.

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[h3]6. Sacramento Kings (2009-10 record -- 25-57)[/h3]
Can the Kings become the first team since the Buffalo Braves to boast back-to-back Rookie of the Year award winners? With DeMarcus Cousins around, the chances are quite strong. Cousins has the size and skill to put up big numbers in his rookie campaign, but he'll have to earn his minutes alongside bigs Carl Landry and Samuel Dalembert.

The Kings have certainly beefed up their frontline after allowing the fifth-highest field goal percentage at the rim last season, according to Hoopdata.com. While they added muscle up front, they still miss Kevin Martin's scoring punch on the perimeter. Can they score enough to make some noise? Cousins may be the key.

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[h3]7. Los Angeles Clippers (2009-10 record -- 29-53)[/h3]
It's tough to imagine a scenario that has the Clippers making the playoffs for the second time in 14 years. But at least they will have Blake Griffin back (as of now).

More than anything, Griffin's long-awaited arrival means he can eat up shots that would otherwise go to Chris Kaman, who is one of the more overrated scoring big men in the game. Among bigs, only Stoudemire, Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Bosh ate up more possessions than Kaman last season (27.1 percent usage rate) and not coincidentally, they each received max contracts this summer. Kaman had the worst offensive rating among big men who played 30 minutes per game last season but shot the rock as frequently as a max guy. Griffin will help make sure that doesn't happen again.

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[h3]8. Washington Wizards 2009-10 record 26-56[/h3]
John Wall transforms this franchise's long-term outlook not unlike the way baseball phenom Stephen Strasburg took the Washington Nationals organization by storm -- excitement now, playoffs later. Even with Wall's off-the-charts athleticism and talent, the Wizards are at least a year away from contending for the postseason.

JaVale McGee and Wall could produce a deadly loft-and-finish tandem reminiscent of Tyson Chandler and CP3. But the only other star on the roster, Gilbert Arenas, is a questionable fit alongside Wall, and the talent down low is still too raw to bang with the rest of the league's premier bigs.

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[h3]9. Philadelphia 76ers (2009-10 record -- 27-55)[/h3]
The Sixers have over $50 million left on Elton Brand's contract, and the rest of the team's future isn't much brighter.

Sure, Evan Turner could develop into Grant Hill-lite, but he won't get there with Andre Iguodala sapping up his opportunities. Turner and Jrue Holiday represent the light at the end of the tunnel, but this team will be happy just to win 30 games next season, much less punch a ticket to the playoffs.

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[h3]10. New Jersey Nets (2009-10 record -- 12-70)[/h3]
Five years is a long time, but new owner Mikhail Prokhorov's championship promise sure doesn't look any better today than it did two months ago.

It won't go down as the worst signing of the summer, but inking the totally replaceable Johan Petro for three years and $10 million is precisely the type of deal 12-win teams cannot afford to make. Brian Zoubek, whom the Nets signed as an undrafted free agent, could probably fulfill his role 10 cents on the dime. That said, with Derrick Favors, Troy Murphy, Anthony Morrow and Jordan Farmar in tow, the Nets can probably double their win total from last season.

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[h3]11. Detroit Pistons (2009-10 record -- 27-55)[/h3]
This is when the $86 million owed to Richard Hamilton, Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva really burns. While most sub-30 win teams had enough cap space to chase some prizes this summer, the Pistons had no choice but to stay pat with their bloated contracts.

As any Knicks fan can attest, Tracy McGrady is running on fumes at this point in his career, so that signing shouldn't be treated as anything more than a courtesy flier. Lottery pick Greg Monroe should help bolster the paint, but it's shaping up like another dismal season in Detroit.

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[h3]12. Golden State Warriors (2009-10 record -- 26- 56)[/h3]
In letting go Kelenna Azubuike, Anthony Randolph and Anthony Morrow, the Warriors unleashed three of the most promising young players on their roster outside of Stephen Curry. In efforts to rebuild, they wisely dumped Corey Maggette's long-term contract for a couple of expiring ones in Dan Gadzuric and Charlie Bell.

A team built around David Lee and Curry has a promising future but won't make the postseason in 2010-11 -- even if it did sign Harvard and summer league sensation Jeremy Lin.

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[h3]13. Toronto Raptors (2009-10 record -- 40-42)[/h3]
After losing Chris Bosh to Miami, the Raptors effectively shifted their franchise into rebuilding mode. Toronto fans, be warned: This will be painful.

Don't be surprised if next season's squad approaches Worst Defense of All-Time territory. The Raptors did nothing to address their league-worst 110.2 defensive efficiency when they netted Leandro Barbosa, Linas Kleiza and David Andersen in the offseason. Youngsters DeMar DeRozan and Ed Davis will provide some flash to pacify the fans, but this team is years away from vying for a playoff spot.

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[h3]14. Minnesota Timberwolves (2009-10 record -- 15-67)[/h3]
General manager David Kahn has the NBA completely befuddled. He's rolling the dice with unpolished (and largely untalented) youngsters hoping they miraculously click at the same time. Just when he convinces us he's thinking strictly long-term, he hands 29-year-old Luke Ridnour a fully guaranteed four-year deal after a fluke career year so he can play in a system that neutralizes his crafty pick-and-roll attack.

Michael Beasley could bring this team across the 20-win threshold, but that's about the brightest endorsement this Kahn-designed roster allows.

Tom Haberstroh is a frequent contributor to ESPN Insider.
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

Shaq may have been better then Duncan, but Duncan is going to MAX out his career.  Every drop of it.  Can you say the same for Shaq?  Hell no you can not.  There's a reason he was swept SIX TIMES in his playoff career.  He was too lazy too many damn times in his career.  If he had the drive that others had, this would ALL be mute, MJ would be 1, and Shaq would be 2.  It's that simple.  But Shaq didn't have that.  He @#$%^& around too damn much.  So for that, I would be ok with Duncan over Shaq if people voted it that way.  I wouldn't complain at all. 

My point exactly...I can't put someone who really is as a huge underachiever as Shaq is ahead of Duncan.  Shaq should have never lost in the post Jordan era...The center's of the 90's were gone and there was  NO ONE to stop him.  Would it really have hurt Shaq to spend a couple summer improving on his free throws?  Would it have hurt Shaq spending a summer getting in shape?  Shaq could have been the GOAT imo if he had the drive to do it, but he was too into being Shaq.  Dudes a clown and always has been.  Shaw wants to make movies, Shaq wants to make movies, Shaq wants to have tv shows...It never seemed Shaq was actually that interested in basketball.  What type of message does that send to your team when its best player is the laziest one.  Sets a bad precedent.
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

Here's the thing that irks me with Bird and Simmons constant hype of him.

Dude never defended his title.  And say whatever you want, that means something. 

All of you that read that book, look where he placed, Bird, McHale, Parish and especially Dennis Johnson.  And yet, they couldn't go back to back.  They were the Spurs of the 80's. 

Throw in the college game, and Magic repeatedly got over on Bird. 


All of that passing angle/see the court, blah blah blah that Bill and JA speak of with Bird is true in a sense, however, even Bill brought it up briefly, and then bailed out on it, the athleticism was not up to par yet.  Bird got away with passes and angles and smarts because there were no Scottie Pipper types, Trevor Ariza, Kevin Garnett, Shane Battier, Tony Allen, guys like this that could go from side to side of a court in 3 steps, or with those long rangy arms/legs that would destroy all those "angles" and passes that Bird made.  I mean, honestly sit back and look at a team of Walton, McHale, Bird, Ainge on the court at the same time.  Anyone wanna guess how those Pacers (whoops) would fair today?  Good right?  Fundamental right?  They gonna dominate and get over on the athletes of today?  @#$% no.  Just look at who gave Bird the most fits, Michael Cooper who was ahead of his time, and then came Dennis Rodman (before he was crazy, when he was a rangy skinny 6-10 fast athlete) Those were the guys that gave Bird the most trouble.  Shocker?  Nope, not at all. 

I laughed out loud every time Simmons went on and on about Bird and his "passing ability" and he just sort of glossed over Magic the whole time.  I hate getting into stuff like this because I don't want it to turn into a homer discussion, but Magic defined the passing game in the 80's.  Give me a break.  Not that Bird wasn't a good passer, but to hype the @#$% out of him for 400 pages and hardly even cover it with Magic is PURE bias and transparent as all hell. 
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I give respect to Larry because he deserves it.  Dude was a great great player.  I have no problem with him being in the top 5 for now, but in a few years, I know for a fact he'll start dropping down into the 8-9-10 range as crazy as that may sound.  But if Kobe finishes strong, if LeBron does what I'm told he will, and if Duncan finds a way to make a jump somehow, that's 3 playing right now.  Who knows when and where the next kid comes from.  Durant, D Rose, Dwight Howard, I don't know.  But somebody will.  MJ isn't going anywhere, Russell won't, KAJ won't, Magic may slide a spot of two but 9 finals in 12 years is tough to beat.  Too bad Magic wasn't able to give us 3-4 more years. 
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Shaq may have been better then Duncan, but Duncan is going to MAX out his career.  Every drop of it.  Can you say the same for Shaq?  Hell no you can not.  There's a reason he was swept SIX TIMES in his playoff career.  He was too lazy too many damn times in his career.  If he had the drive that others had, this would ALL be mute, MJ would be 1, and Shaq would be 2.  It's that simple.  But Shaq didn't have that.  He @#$%^& around too damn much.  So for that, I would be ok with Duncan over Shaq if people voted it that way.  I wouldn't complain at all. 
All good points. His treatment of Kareem was also horrendous.
 
See, I'm fine with pretty much everything you said. I was defending Bird moreso than trying to bash Magic. I can talk about how great Larry Bird's passing was for a SF, but in reality Magic Johnson wasn't the prototypical PG, Magic was so damn tall, and a great athlete. That's why I said Magic is 1A, while Bird is 1B. Magic always slightly edged out Bird in whatever it was. Collegiate career, NBA career, whatever.

I give you the point where you say Magic and the Lakers were better winners, never back-to-back, as I said, the Lakers were clearly better winners.

My one mini-gripe is that you talk about how ineffective Bird would be against the Pippens, Battiers, etc., and that's to be decided, but by that same logic, what if Bill Russell had to go up against Ewings, Admirals, Dreams, Shaqs, etc. I'm not trying to take away from having so many rings, but I think it's a tad unfair to judge players of the past like that. If guys like Pippen revolutionize the game in same way, that's great, but I don't think that should take away from players of the past because they took advantage of it. By the same token that you can bring up Bird not having to play with many crafty defenders, from most highlights I'VE seen, when Bird is being crafty with the ball, he's busting his $!*. Michael Cooper is a fine name to bring up, there are always players that become thorn in the sides of other players.

Not to be nitpicky, but didn't Bird and Magic only play one year against each other? It's a mute point really because Magic STILL won, but just bringing it up.

I don't buy all the "Celtics legacy" either. I think Bill Russell is an overrated player. One of the best Centers ever? Absolutely, but no way I'm taking him over Kareem, not a chance. He was a great player at an opportune time. Put Kareem in that situation, he'd win 11 rings too, EASILY. Kareem was on his way in just as Russell was leaving, but a lot of those rings they got, NO ONE was touching the Celtic's back then, interchange that with Kareem, who's resume is excellent as well, I don't know man, I've always thought Bill Russell was overrated.

He's definitely still one of the best, he was a winner and all, but sometimes you think how guys like Hakeem or Kareem would do with the kind of organization they had in Boston. Back when you only had to win two playoff series to win a championship....
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Magic might have been the greatest mis-match to ever play the game.  6-9 PG?  @#$%^& kidding me? 
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  Luckily back then it was all set offense, fast break, shoot with 16-17 on the clock, if he played in the late 90's, use the full clock, could you imagine him going in the post every possession on John Stockton? 
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He damn near created the fact that someone else had to guard him, and put your PG on someone else (Byron usually) 

Bill did a good job for the most part cross matching up the generations (not easy) but his section with Bird, he just ran thru it real quick.  475 page PDF, Bird was mentioned on probably 400 of them, and he gave a 100 word section to what would have happened had Bird played 10 years later. 
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  But still, that's his hero, so whatever. 
Make no mistake, I believe whole heartedly, Bird can play.  Nobody mistake that, that boy could ball.  All I am saying, is the day will come when Kobe Bean Bryant will surpass Bird's career, and there will be a certain ESPN writer go on a Jason Vorhees type massacre when it happens.  Dead serious, he is going to lose it.  And i personally think that there will be 3-4 others come along in the next decade or so that will also pass Larry Legend. 
Not to be nitpicky, but didn't Bird and Magic only play one year against each other? It's a mute point really because Magic STILL won, but just bringing it up.

You talkin college, or what?  Finals wise, they went 84, 85, and 87, Bird winning the first one, Magic the second 2.  If you meant college, yes, just 79.  (No, I was not watching that game, I'm not that old you clowns.)


I think the reason Bill hates KAJ is because he could see that Kareem was Russell's biggest threat from the time Kareem came up in high school.  Bill HATES Karrem, you can tell reading this book.  lol  First because he was a threat, second because he became a Laker.  But Bill did admit, if he needed an all time team of players from any year (like 92 MJ, plus 87 Magic, plus etc etc) he did pick 74 Kareem I believe.  He said Kareem was the surest two points in the game with the skyhook or the foul with Kareem would hit the free throws.  So Bill hates him, but he ain't stupid. 

Russell still has 11.  I like to pick on the Celts of that era too, but much like Cy Young and his 511 that nobody will ever sniff ever ever ever, nobody is gettin 11.  No unless a player starts signing one day contracts with teams in the finals up 3-0 or something like that. 
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  I don't have any prob at all with Russ getting #2 until someone else in the modern age can put a resume similar to something Jordan did.  If Karl Malone had 3 titles, 32K points, all his rebounds, all D, playoff records etc etc, I could see Malone gettin moved up, so it's possible, just not easy.  If Kobe gets to 7, 32K all time playoff points/games, etc, another finals MVP or so, maybe a season one, all NBA 2-3 more times, would his resume be enough to get him to #2?  I dunno.  We need to wait a few years on him.  Same if Shaq or Duncan could have held on an extra 2 years or so at a real high elite level. 

This lockout needs to get avoided, otherwise, it's something that could screw around with legacies and things like that.  This would be some of these guys second lockout, meaning they could lose a full seasons worth of games, maybe less, maybe more, whatever.  Things like that add up when we all sit and discuss where they rank all time.  Add an extra 30 games worth of numbers to Duncan and Shaq's totals from the 99 lockout when they were in their primes.  Nice jump eh? 
 
^
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Some of us like the history side of things.  I know you have stuff you could add, I seen your Cleveland Indians thread where you can break down middle A level infielders swing % on balls 3-5 with 2 outs and nobody on up by 5 in the late innings.  Somebody like that, must have some sort of angle on where NBA players rank all time, wouldn't they? 
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It's the offseason man, not a whole lot goin on day to day anymore.  *shrugs*
 
lmaoo i was watchin the 1998 finals replay

isiah thomas is commentating.
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he was talkin about how the bulls started celebrating too early before game 5

he was like :
they started celebrating too early,started thinkin about what they're gonna do at the riot..errr rally or celebration

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I like the Clippers new unis.

I'm waiting to see what the Jazz new unis look like.
 
Speaking of new jersey's the Wolves are suppose to break out a new black alternative jersey. imo it won't be better than the old one.
 
Plus, I've heard they're making tweaks to the current white and blue ones.
 
Originally Posted by HOOD17

Speaking of new jersey's the Wolves are suppose to break out a new black alternative jersey. imo it won't be better than the old one.

There's just no way it can be better. Those jerseys were some of the best around. I still have my old black Wolves KG jersey
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Those Clipper jerseys are cool.  The NBA is gonna use the material they used for the 2010 All-Star Game uniforms on all teams uniforms.

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Originally Posted by Noskey

Originally Posted by HOOD17

Speaking of new jersey's the Wolves are suppose to break out a new black alternative jersey. imo it won't be better than the old one.

There's just no way it can be better. Those jerseys were some of the best around. I still have my old black Wolves KG jersey
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Ditto.
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All this uniform talk has me thinking about which teams will get new, alternate or slightly tweaked jerseys this season.

Of the top of my head:

- Wolves
- Cavs
- Warriors
- Jazz
- Clippers

The Kings should get a black alternate with purple lettering, those would be
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