***Official Political Discussion Thread***

Trump couldn't get his intelligence officials to lie to Congress for him about Russia interfering to benefit his re-election. Furious about the testimony, he now sends his National Security Adviser out there to lie for him.
 
So is that gonna be the narrative from trump at al when/if he loses? Election was rigged for Bernie by Russia (both communist)?
 
RustyShackleford said:
-I can interpret it as Obama making a serious miscalculation about American politics at the time. The movement need him to be involved for it to stay afloat, he thought it could run on autopilot without him. And a ton of other things happens that compounded the situation and made it worst. So yeah, I read it as more as naivete than arrogance.

-Here is the thing, you kind like Bernie for whatever reason, do you, but I don't have to buy into the BS. And I think over the last few months and years I have proven that I just don't pull criticism and push backs out my *** regarding dude. You want to handwave other candidates smarts because you want something different politically, then fine, do you my dude. But lets us talk about in here. We can't even have a detailed debate about M4A in here because if someone dare wants to have one in regards to the roadblocks, or the mechanics of the program it is handwaved as "not lacking vision". Sorry but if I raise a point in good faith about the economics of M4A, do not I get an argument within the frame of economics, instead I get some implication that people not onboard completely with this are somehow fine with the status quo. So it is frustrating when lacking vision, or liberals this, and liberals that, all kinds of other handwavely stuff, is used in place of actually discussion that damn policy itself.

You can call the other stuff irrelevant to "politics", but what happens when we get the opportunity to actually pass something. When it come time to legislate, when it comes time to make positive change, Will the smart people have input to write a plan that doesn't collapse on itself or struck down by even a liberal judge. Will people actually listen or will the purity test remain?

Because there is this weird frame that Bernie supporters want political discussion to happen under when it comes to Bernie. Be informed enough to realize Bernie diagnosis the problem of the economy better than the other candidates, but not informed enough to question the problems with his proposed remedies.

- If it was really just about the political vision, you won't be so jumpy at people that criticize him. You do a ton of defend of Bernie beyond just the vision. Damn near all the Bernie supporters on NT and in real life do too. Famb, I really think you are drinking the Kool-Aid again, just a different flavor.
Click to expand...
What misconception, exactly, do I need to be disabused of regarding Bernie? I think I've articulated in pretty great detail over the last year or whatever why I support him and I've engaged in extensive discourse in here around that and related topics. Just because I see things differently than you sometimes, I wouldn't say that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. Is there something I'm just completely missing or being seriously unreasonable about?

I'm not overly concerned with how we pay for M4A right now or the minutiae of how the final bill might be written. There is time to consider proposals and hammer out details. Right now is the time for building public support for the program and convincing people that our current system is irredeemable and needs the kind of transformation that would come with M4A. So critiquing current possible funding mechanisms is fine—I'm not overly concerned with that at this point, but I can understand if you are. That said, I would imagine that most people don't really care about those details—for them to hear that their taxes may be raised some but that will be more than offset by the elimination of premiums, deductibles, co-pays, etc. is probably enough. I'm guessing Bernie senses this as well.

But you don't have to buy into anything. That's cool. We are having a conversation and offering our respective views. You always give some good food for thought in those exchanges and I can usually see where you're coming from, even when I end up disagreeing. Hopefully my contributions shed similar light.

And just as you admonish me not to conflate what you post with what others post or with arguments that people outside of this thread make, I never said anyone not backing M4A is "fine with the status quo," nor do I come in here talking "liberals this, liberals that." I'm not offended or anything, I just want to clarify.
 
RustyShackleford said:
-I'm not in the mood to dig through Bern's Twitter, but here, he name drops the other countries in this video around the 10 min mark...


And I can already see the deflection coming.

-Dude, if the analysis is so shallow, then I have asked you plenty of times to expand the conversation. You keep harping on about it being a meme. If Bernie wants us to guarantee health insurance to all people as a right like most developed countries so, then I agree, as do most Dems. However, Bernie plans has differences to other nations, and when people suggest we consider doing it like other nations he mentions, Bernie and his supporters gets pissed that someone is half stepping. So what is the goal, passing M4A as is, or getting to universal coverage?

And he routinely says in is pitch for M4A, believe he mentions it in the video, is that we are just gonna expand the Medicare program to all citizens. But Medicare now doesn't function like the plan he is proposing.

-Sure Bernie has said taxes will go up, he has never come close to putting a real number on it. Also, you said it will be paid for by his tax plan, I am just pointing out that is not true. Not getting specific and just putting trust in the great plan sounds exactly like the GOP's whole "Repeal and Replace" stuff. Even if you tell people expect taxes, I don't think people still expect what is actually coming. But I understand he doesn't want to do it now because it will tank him. The Governor of Vermont played coy about the price of single payer to get it passed. Then when it came time to write the bill, it was abandoned because when voters saw the real cost it lost support. The same things might happen here.

In 2006-2010, we had a healthcare debate. Bernie could have proposed a detailed M4A plan, he didn't, he put out a outline that and didn't get it scored by the CBO. Anthony Weiner was the main single payer guy and he got Pelosi to agree to drop the public option to appease blue dogs. Obama and Pelosi were been this plan and it worked in the House because the marginal voters was cool with it. In the Senate Bernie pushed to keep the public option, but it was drop because Joe Liebermann's *** *** was the marginal voter and he tanked it.

Like the time came in Congress in 2010, and nothing. Dude been talking about this for how long? Decades, and never once he asked a health economist to right a serious bill and get is scored.

-M4A is not a bargaining chip like you think. I don't know why people think that if you start off further to the left that somehow the compromise will be more in your favor. We get the plan the marginal voter is comfortable with, that's it. If you want to use it as a bargaining chip, you have to be ready to walk away from the negotiating table, progressive are not willing to do that on healthcare. We are getting something closer to Biden's plan, because that is what the centrist in the House and Senate support. It is the sad reality. That is why I said that if we want more progressive plans, progressive have to find a way to win in red areas. Even with electoral reform, this had to change.
Click to expand...

First off I'll admit I only watched up until he made the first "like this country" claim that was @ around 5:04-5:05 in case you wanna see it for yourself. He name drops Canada and the interviewer asks and Bernie responds as such:

Reporter: Is this proposal socialism?

Neon: No, actually it is not, it is similar (emphasis on that last word) to what the Canadians have.

Now, admittedly I'm biased but that doesn't sound to me like he said exactly or just like Canada's system just similar to it and that claim wouldn't be wrong exactly. It is vague but not wrong. Take from that what you will though Rust.

-Regarding the "half stepping on M4A" claim, speaking for myself here, it's purely about coming to the table from an extreme and brokering down to a more realistic one. If you come @ congress with straight away with the Euro model they'll beat it to the white meat shows like they did Obama care. I think we briefly went over this late yesterday/early today. Which leads me to....

-I think you vastly underrate how desperate conditions are getting for many americans, not the poor but the middle class as well. This isn't like 08 where the Occupy was just an annoying pest the government could just swipe down and Americans were only beginning to see how bad things can get (we still haven't quite reached that point yet). But like -Red- -Red- said, this is more than Neon, it's a movement, walking away from the table isn't a card that Neon himself even has to put into place. If things go south with M4A ain't just gonna be wilding on twitter anymore....
 
red mpls said:
This is what I don't understand and have never understood about your argument that no other country has a medical system like what's being proposed with Medicare for All—who cares? Who is saying that M4A is based specifically on the model of another country? No one that I'm aware of. Bernie has articulated a number of reasons for why his specific proposal would be good. Universal coverage is obviously one of those reasons, but there are many others that are specific to his proposal and that would not happen under any other current proposal being discussed—making medical care free at the point of service and eliminating all premiums, deductibles, co-pays, etc., eliminating the bureaucracy and frustration around navigating health care plans, arguing with insurance companies, being rationed out care, etc., de-commodifying health insurance and destroying the predatory for-profit insurance industry.

Looking at that graphic specifically: Why would we want to settle for a system where people have to buy supplemental insurance? Why would we want to settle for a system that doesn't cover dental, vision, long-term care, mental health, prescriptions, hospital stays, and primary care for all? Why would we want to settle for a system where co-pays and deductibles are retained? All that graphic shows is that M4A would make healthcare in the United States perhaps the most comprehensive in the entire world. Okay, wonderful! What is the issue?

So can we please drop this talking point?
Click to expand...
No :lol:

I am not dropping anything because all this is an attempt to hand wave.

If Bernie says we should guarantee healthcare to everyone as a right, then I agree. He thinks we should look and be like other countries, to do what's right, then I agree. Then the natural question would be, "everyone does stuff differently" what plan are we going to use. The answer is smartly single-payer, ok cool, many uses in different ways so I guess we'll have our variety, no problem. But then when the specifics of the plan come out, and I read the details, why can't I ask the fundamental question I thought you said we were going to be like other countries?

If the answer is that we are going to do our own thing, then why the hell does Bernie keep name dropping these other countries when we are going to do something unique. You used Canada in discussion with osh kosh bosh osh kosh bosh . Other Bernie supporters name drop other countries and the similarities between what Bernie is proposing. So it is cool for Bernie and you to use other countries to make our case, but when I bring up the differences, it is a problem?

I am not saying we have to be like another country; we can do our own thing. But when I suggest doing something other than M4A, here comes the damn comparisons to other countries again. You want me to stop bringing them up because who cares. Then how about Bernie, you and everyone else shut up about them too, and I will be happy to oblige. Until then, I am not dropping it.

Or would you prefer I ignore his words because it is politically inconvenient for his supporters to defend them? Because this is what it sounds like you really want.

I agree with the benefits of M4A, I don't think I have ever talked against them on those grounds, but Bernie and M4A main pitch to people is on the grounds of getting to universal coverage, to guarantee health insurance for everyone. He has brought up the other things, but when pressed on specifics, he runs back to the moral argument about how unjust the systems are. Now all the other restructuring I generally agree with. I have told you that I even said in a perfect world, I would prefer Socialized Medicine over Bernie's plans. That much more work needs to be done beyond M4A. I have said this in conversations with you. So please stop repeating the benefits of M4A like I don't know them, understand them, or have not agreed with them in here before. I get them, but I have an interest in policy, it is kind of my job too. All I am always asking it to discuss the economics, and once they conversation gets hard in that area, you guys do what Bernie's does, act like if we are not 100% on board with and against universal coverage.

In short, Nah, not dropping anything. If you don't want to grapple with the economics or politics it beyond what helps your argument, then cool, do you.

But you can't ask me to be informed and ignorant at the same time.
 
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red mpls said:
What misconception, exactly, do I need to be disabused of regarding Bernie? I think I've articulated in pretty great detail over the last year or whatever why I support him and I've engaged in extensive discourse in here around that and related topics. Just because I see things differently than you sometimes, I wouldn't say that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. Is there something I'm just completely missing or being seriously unreasonable about?

I'm not overly concerned with how we pay for M4A right now or the minutiae of how the final bill might be written. There is time to consider proposals and hammer out details. Right now is the time for building public support for the program and convincing people that our current system is irredeemable and needs the kind of transformation that would come with M4A. So critiquing current possible funding mechanisms is fine—I'm not overly concerned with that at this point, but I can understand if you are. That said, I would imagine that most people don't really care about those details—for them to hear that their taxes may be raised some but that will be more than offset by the elimination of premiums, deductibles, co-pays, etc. is probably enough. I'm guessing Bernie senses this as well.

But you don't have to buy into anything. That's cool. We are having a conversation and offering our respective views. You always give some good food for thought in those exchanges and I can usually see where you're coming from, even when I end up disagreeing. Hopefully my contributions shed similar light.

And just as you admonish me not to conflate what you post with what others post or with arguments that people outside of this thread make, I never said anyone not backing M4A is "fine with the status quo," nor do I come in here talking "liberals this, liberals that." I'm not offended or anything, I just want to clarify.
Click to expand...
From your I get the impression you have bought into him as a person, but as much as you have bought into his policies. Let anyone say anything about Bernie, and you jump on them. If I didn't extensively show my work to back up any criticism I made of Bernie, you are somewhat ready to write it off like some lie, especially when we first started to engage. Dude, you made the argument that you could tell be Warren's body language that he was trying to put on an act to hurt Bernie. A story about some source said some Democrat said something bad about Bernie, and you buy it. Complaining that Bernie is the only one criticized in here when that was clearly not true. So yeah, my dude, it seems you are just as invested in the person too, not just the vision.

It is not minutiae, people need to snap out of this way of thinking. There are important things to work out. It is not something that can be wiped up in a short time without extensive hearings. Funding for the program is trillions short; it is a significant restructuring out a large part of the economy, budget, and tax code, it is not trivial. No one's going to force it through without grappling with those things. If it was not that big a deal, we could just deficit spend to cover the difference, but we can't, because it is so much money it will eventually tank the economy, and hurt the same people the program was intended to help.

Another problem is not just about increasing taxes on the middle class; it is about getting rid of a massive tax break, and raising taxes. Currently, because we don't tax employer and employee healthcare premiums like income, there is something like 250 billion in lost revenue. So Bernie is not just raising taxes on the middle class, he is stripping them of a tax break, (which I support regardless) and bumping up their taxes. While you and I might be cool about that, that sticker stock going to be a mother****er for some people. Furthermore, economics doesn't work that cleanly; not everyone will be getting a better deal so that they will be pissed too. He is going to but a ton of extra payroll taxes on business, which will put downward pressure on things. Now for a better healthcare system, I think it is worth it. However, the same things you feel are trivial might be the exact thing that sparks a movement against it.

-To be fair, the using liberal as an ad hominem is not something you do. I should I have clearer, didn't mean to conflate stuff you post with what I get from other Bernie supporters in here.
 
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Belgium said:
To all posters, I’m curious about you guys’ early predictions on who will be the Democratic nominee. Also, does your prediction line up with your preferred choice?

I feel pretty confident that Bernie will win the nomination.
Click to expand...
Bernie vs Warren. Possibly Bernie.
 
youngogjosh said:
First off I'll admit I only watched up until he made the first "like this country" claim that was @ around 5:04-5:05 in case you wanna see it for yourself. He name drops Canada and the interviewer asks and Bernie responds as such:

Reporter: Is this proposal socialism?

Neon: No, actually it is not, it is similar (emphasis on that last word) to what the Canadians have.

Now, admittedly I'm biased but that doesn't sound to me like he said exactly or just like Canada's system just similar to it and that claim wouldn't be wrong exactly. It is vague but not wrong. Take from that what you will though Rust.

-Regarding the "half stepping on M4A" claim, speaking for myself here, it's purely about coming to the table from an extreme and brokering down to a more realistic one. If you come @ congress with straight away with the Euro model they'll beat it to the white meat shows like they did Obama care. I think we briefly went over this late yesterday/early today. Which leads me to....

-I think you vastly underrate how desperate conditions are getting for many americans, not the poor but the middle class as well. This isn't like 08 where the Occupy was just an annoying pest the government could just swipe down and Americans were only beginning to see how bad things can get (we still haven't quite reached that point yet). But like -Red- -Red- said, this is more than Neon, it's a movement, walking away from the table isn't a card that Neon himself even has to put into place. If things go south with M4A ain't just gonna be wilding on twitter anymore....
Click to expand...
-I said to watch at around the 10 min mark. You instead just watched the first 5 mins, :lol: ok famb. Lets us just drop this for now.

-That is not what happened with the ACA. Libermann said he was not going to consider any of the progressive stuff, full stop. That is what wrecked it. Starting more left would not have done ****. Joe Manchin for the party by the bawls now too. I want more progressive in office, winning swing states and districts because that is the only way a progressive agenda is passed. Not starting more left.

-With all due respect, you don't know me to claim I underestimate how conditions are for Americans. **** reading about it, I lived some of it.

I am an immigrant that had to fly to another country only to get rejected for a green card multiple times off of a technicality. My mom is a single mother; even with family help, she had to work two jobs to make rent. I shoveled snow, cut lawns, and work to help her some months when I was in HS. I worked my way through college, still had loan debt, and graduated to into an economy where I could not find a job. So I had to move in with family in a different state and work 2-3 jobs to save for school (gooding **** like construction, landscaping, being a dishwasher, and bakery assistant), and yeah, help my mom out. I am 34; most of my adult life, I worked jobs that didn't offer insurance. I thought I torn my ACL one time, and I remember crying in a clinic thinking Imma going to have a limp for the rest of my life because I would not be able to pay for surgery. I celebrated like crazy when the ACA passed because I had friends and family members that had diseases that could have killed them but couldn't get covered under the old system. I lived under stop-n-frisk and experience the police robbing my cousin one day, and almost killing me another night. My life just start stop being **** like 5 years ago.

Right now, the primary volunteering I do is tutoring kids for free. Clark County Nevada is one of the worst school districts in America. You ever try to teach a 12-year-old how to read, or a 16-year-old how to multiply fractions. Or realizing that so many teenagers have unplanned pregnancies because they never had a basic health class. Also I am helping fight against this vile law in the valley that essentially criticizes homelessness. All the **** I had to go through, I consider myself lucky as ****, because I have seen how worst things can be for people. I see first hand how much worse things are getting for the most vulnerable people in America.

I don't say **** like poverty is violence to be hyperbolic; I say it because I mean it. At the end of the day I may run my mouth online, but none of what I say ******* matter.

So please, I don't act like you don't know the plight of the American poor and middle class, so show me the same respect in that regard. It is find to say I don't know about specific policy issue though. But I think I have a grasp on the cruelty being inflicted on people out there.

We can disagree, but neither of us are on some DWalk or Ninja level ignorance about the current state of affairs in America.
 
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RustyShackleford said:
-I said to watch at around the 10 min mark. You instead just watched the first 5 mins, :lol: ok famb. Lets us just drop this for now.

-That is not what happened with the ACA. Libermann said he was not going to consider any of the progressive stuff, full stop. That is what wrecked it. Starting more left would not have done ****. Joe Manchin for the party by the bawls now too. I want more progressive in office, winning swing states and districts because that is the only way a progressive agenda is passed. Not starting more left.

-With all due respect, you don't know me to claim I underestimate how conditions are for Americans. **** reading about it, I lived some of it.

I am an immigrant that had to fly to another country only to get rejected for a green card multiple times off of a technicality. My mom is a single mother; even with family help, she had to work two jobs to make rent. I shoveled snow, cut lawns, and work to help her some months when I was in HS. I worked my way through college, still had loan debt, and graduated to into an economy where I could not find a job. So I had to move in with family in a different state and work 2-3 jobs to save for school (gooding **** like construction, landscaping, being a dishwasher, and bakery assistant), and yeah, help my mom out. I am 34; most of my adult life, I worked jobs that didn't offer insurance. I thought I torn my ACL one time, and I remember crying in a clinic thinking Imma going to have a limp for the rest of my life because I would not be able to pay for surgery. I celebrated like crazy when the ACA passed because I had friends and family members that had diseases that could have killed them but couldn't get covered under the old system. I lived under stop-n-frisk and experience the police robbing my cousin one day, and almost killing me another night. My life just start stop being **** like 5 years ago.

Right now, the primary volunteering I do is tutoring kids for free. Clark County Nevada is one of the worst school districts in America. You ever try to teach a 12-year-old how to read, or a 16-year-old how to multiply fractions. Or realizing that so many teenagers have unplanned pregnancies because they never had a basic health class. Right now, I am helping fight against this vile law in the valley that essentially criticizes homelessness. All the **** I had to go through, I consider myself lucky as ****, because I have seen how worst things can be for people. I see first hand how much worse things are getting. At the end of the day I may run my mouth online, but none of what I say ****ing matter.

I don't say **** like poverty is violence to be hyperbolic; I say it because I mean it.

So please, I don't act like you don't know the plight of the American poor and middle class, so show me the same respect in that regard.

We can disagree, but neither of us are on some DWalk or Ninja level ignorance about the current state of affairs in America.
Click to expand...
I didn't see it initially reading your comment but he still doesn't ever say explicitly M4A is to be "Exactly" like Europe or Canada. He instead says "somewhat different" or "similar" never exactly or anything specific.

-I don't wanna this into a struggle olympics, I'm sure we've all been some tough ****. I grew up in the projects of Cleveland, Ohio. Garden Valley Estates to be exact. I've seen enough to know that material conditions have gotten even worse since my folks moved from there in late 07. I didn't say it to diminish anybody else's experiences. I said it to show that there's a legit heartbeat in the left right that's not going away like it did in 08 and that's because of how much worse things have gotten since then.

-I expect there to be Liebs this time around too, difference is, people aren't gonna tune it out like they did when ACA was in congress. It won't just be a bunch of young turks fans camping outside wallstreet this time
 
Damn they called it already?

picard.png


tenor.gif
 
handullz said:
His plan of the closest to what I want.

so if a doesnt 100% line up with my views, i shouldn’t support them?

you dead *** right now?
Click to expand...
Ok fine, you can like what you want. Support whatever you want.

We were talking specifically about his plan. The cost of specifically his plan.

So I don't know why you had an issue with folk talking about paying for Bernie's plan when that is not even the plan you want.
 
youngogjosh said:
I didn't see it initially reading your comment but he still doesn't ever say explicitly M4A is to be "Exactly" like Europe or Canada. He instead says "somewhat different" or "similar" never exactly or anything specific.

-I don't wanna this into a struggle olympics, I'm sure we've all been some tough ****. I grew up in the projects of Cleveland, Ohio. Garden Valley Estates to be exact. I've seen enough to know that material conditions have gotten even worse since my folks moved from there in late 07. I didn't say it to diminish anybody else's experiences. I said it to show that there's a legit heartbeat in the left right that's not going away like it did in 08 and that's because of how much worse things have gotten since then.

-I expect there to be Liebs this time around too, difference is, people aren't gonna tune it out like they did when ACA was in congress. It won't just be a bunch of young turks fans camping outside wallstreet this time
Click to expand...
-My point is that both Bernie and you tend to argue that M4A is the only way to get to universal coverage, and he points to other countries having universal coverage to advocate for his M4A plan and only his plan. However, other countries do things different that he is proposing, and yeah have universal health insurance too. So can we just stop talking like the only way we get to universal coverage is through Bernie plan. It is not true.

-I know everyone has been through some ****, but you could have made the point about continued economic decline without implying I specifically are ignorant of that fact. That is all I am saying.

-Yeah I am skeptical of that plan. Bernie calling on protesters to go after Congress people if they don't agree to M4A. If I was a centrist and wanted to tank it, I would just say that I won't vote for something with a CBO score. Once that comes in, the dynamics of the discussion will change. I doubt there will be much appetite to threaten people to pass M4A over a public option. Don't think Sinema and Manchin will budge. I could be wrong, but history seem to be on my side.
 
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