***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[handullz]

Loud and wrong champ. I’m all about who can beat Trump, that’s all that matters to me. That’s why I’m quick tell anybody to stop wasting their time with Bernie Sanders cause he doesn’t stand a chance in hell.

Also Bernie Sanders has no black support which is another reason why he is going to lose. With that being said you have to decide if you want to be with the black community -Red- or if you want to be against us. You have some decisions to make champ. Choose wisely.

The iron knee is rich.

 

[-Red-]

You support and cheer on Bernie Sanders. You are in NO position to say, question, or speak anything black related champ. You made the wrong decision just now......but at least we know where you stand. Even if it’s on shakey ground.

When you have absolutely nothing of substance to say... you get this

Have a seat, Booker. You'd better hurry though, all of Biden's 47 supporters are gonna be looking for one soon enough.

 

[junglejim]

I'm genuinely curious, what's the appeal of Bernie Sanders?

 

[solewoman]

If/when Biden fizzles out, then I think he’ll have a path as an alternative to Mayor Pete. Because the other options are billionaire Bloomberg or Sanders. Deval Patrick might be an easier sell to the party. If Pete keeps out-performing expectations tho, then I think Patrick fizzles out because he won’t have enough money to continue.

Maybe hes more popular then I think but I dont appreciate how he hasnt been on any debates. How are people supposed to know how he is. You can't run off I am close with obama...

 

[handullz]

I'm genuinely curious, what's the appeal of Bernie Sanders?

Ol’ cranky, grandpa-like figure that has been pretty consistent with his views and only talks about helping others.

he doesn’t try to pander, doesn’t try to be someone he isn’t, doesn’t make moves for political career

he’s himself and very authentic. When he talks, youfeel like he actually believes what he’s saying and ismt saying it for votes.

plus the **** he talks about touches a lot of people.A lot of the MSNBC /CNN media is forthe Middle upper class. He talks about crippling student loan debt and the ****** up healthcare industry w/ medical debt (we all know someone or have it ourselves)

And be legalizing the green technology on day one.

 

[-Red-]

I'm genuinely curious, what's the appeal of Bernie Sanders?

I genuinely don't understand the question. What doesn't make sense to you?

 

[RustyShackleford]

I'm genuinely curious, what's the appeal of Bernie Sanders?

To his supporters, him generally, or him as a candidate for the general?

 

[dwalk31]

I'm genuinely curious, what's the appeal of Bernie Sanders?

Populist appeal

 

[junglejim]

To his supporters, him generally, or him as a candidate for the general?

candidate for the general election

 

[aepps20]

Populist appeal

Did Roy have that Predator appeal?

 

[RustyShackleford]

candidate for the general election

Oh ok then

Many of his supporters believe he will bring in a ton of new voters into to the mix, driving turnout higher, and these new voters will be too much for Trump to overcome.

Bernie believes that there are enough marginal white voters don't vote Dem because the Dems don't offer progressive enough economic plans. And he can convince them to vote Dem again, or for the first time. These swing voters are crucial for Trump to have a path to the white house.

I don't buy that at all much. Not to say some of this won't happen, but I don't think it will be on the scale Bernie and his supporters think. I just don't think Bernie 2020 is on the level of Obama 2008.

I think the case for him as a nominee that he can be a kind of unity candidate. The Dems need everyone in the coalition to show up at the polls. Sanders supporters seem to pose the greatest risk of shunning the party if Bernie is not the nominee. If Sanders is on the ticket, his supporters will be excited for November and will be in the big tent pissing out, inside of acting like outsiders pissing in.
The Democratic Party is a large coalition with people motivated by different interest, and Bernie will align with those interest in some way. And also who cares if those people don't rock with Bernie 100%, they want to get Trump out first and foremost for negative partisanship against Trump will lock in voters not excited about a Sanders presidency.

If Bernie plays his cards right he can unify the party better than any other candidate.

I left out the negatives though.

 

[RustyShackleford]

To be honest I am over this primary. I am ready to vote for whoever is the nominee. I still maintain it would have been more productive if Biden and Bernie never ran so their would be no major front runners. Instead of serious policy discussions and their impact, we have most gotten purity test.

Sanders is looking like he is gonna win and that is cool, I have my concerns about his as nominee, but I would have my concerns with everyone. Only thing that annoys me about a potential Sanders candidacy is that his supporters are gonna peddle and bad read of politics, and use Bernie nomination as evidence to back up this bad read. It is gonna be even worst if he wins.

But of course, he must win. And everyone that has even a slither of morals should do call they can to make sure that Sanders beats Trump if it comes down to that.

 

[Belgium]

Again, the head of DOJ’s Criminal Division publicly stated that taking a meeting with Giuliani was a mistake and he wouldn’t have done it if he had known Giuliani is under criminal investigation.
Barr clearly doesn’t agree.


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/feb/07/fox-news-internal-briefing-disinformation-contributors
Fox News guests spread ‘disinformation’ – says leaked internal memo
Among those named in document are frequent guests Rudy Giuliani, John Solomon, Victoria Toensing and Joe diGenova

 

[junglejim]

I genuinely don't understand the question. What doesn't make sense to you?

Pretty much anything about any of his plans. Beside the vague generality of paying for a $95 Trillion dollar plan by making the rich pay their fair share, none of it really seems to do anything to really reduce costs. The "free healthcare" he is touting is an income based premium of 4%. Right now I pay about $2-3K in healthcare costs so the premium based payment will, at least for me, double my health insurance costs which counteracts his general points that it will be more efficient by eliminating the middle man, not to mention it doesnt really make sense to have a premium based on wages versus age. I'm sure as hell not going to need the same medical coverage as someone who is twice my age in the same income brackets.

Not to mention the cost of it is like $30 Trillion dollars so just the medicare portion of it will largely be paid for by making the rich pay their fair share. Plus the plan comes with an additional 7.5% tax paid by employers.

Like his own estimates of "making the rich pay for their fair share" only account for 1/10th of what is needed to pay for it over a 10 year window

And this is just for the health care proposal and he still hasn't come up with a plan on how to fund the rest of the $30T dollars. So all-in-all, for JUST healthcare there is a 4% income based premium on individuals, 7.5% new payroll tax for employers, a 15% increase in in the highest marginal tax rates, and an additional wealth tax and it still wont be enough to fund the plan so its going to need 60 votes in the senate which is going to be damn near impossible. Like one of his revenue raisers of a trillion dollars was taxing offshore profits which is what they did in 2017 to pay for a portion of the tax cuts so that option is gone now too.

Like how the hell is he going to pay for social security increases which are going to be just as costly? You can't really raise the tax rates more than the amounts proposed above or people will either engage in serious tax scams or re-domesticate. Some mentioned a proposed idea of doubling the payroll tax to 27% , so there would effectively be a payroll tax increase of 20% on just payroll alone when you factor in medicare and social security. I'm assuming at some point he raises the federal corporate rate back to 35% which is one of the highest rates in the world and would be an additional 14% tax increase. Corporations arent going to just sit back and pay an extra 34% tax than what they pay now. They are just going to offshore jobs and then import into the US.

And this is just for social security and health care. Nothing for his $17T green deal, nothing for college for all, nothing for his housing plans.

I'm 100% for all of these ideas, but it seems to me like his solution is dumping a **** load of money into programs that have proven over time that they do not work and it feels like it will set democrats back another decade. It's irresponsible to put all these ideas as the baseline of what he is going to do knowing damn well there is zero percent chance they all get passed.

But regardless, **** trump and im still voting straight down the line democrat in the election but Bernies plans are at best a pipe dream.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Here is the secret with Sanders. Take his plans seriously, not literally.

Know he is serious about helping people and improving the situation in many areas of the economy.

But don't think he can pass his platform as they are literally written. Some stuff is clearly unworkable.

 

[dacomeup]

Here is the secret with Sanders. Take his plans seriously, not literally.

Know he is serious about helping people and improving the situation in many areas of the economy.

But don't think he can pass his platform as they are literally written. Some stuff is clearly unworkable.

It's Trumpian in that sense. Big ideas, but little regard for implementation. He can rile people up and get them behind it, though.

 

[deuce king]

To be honest I am over this primary. I am ready to vote for whoever is the nominee. I still maintain it would have been more productive if Biden and Bernie never ran so their would be no major front runners. Instead of serious policy discussions and their impact, we have most gotten purity test.

Sanders is looking like he is gonna win and that is cool, I have my concerns about his as nominee, but I would have my concerns with everyone. Only thing that annoys me about a potential Sanders candidacy is that his supporters are gonna peddle and bad read of politics, and use Bernie nomination as evidence to back up this bad read. It is gonna be even worst if he wins.

But of course, he must win. And everyone that has even a slither of morals should do call they can to make sure that Sanders beats Trump if it comes down to that.

I believe it was you (if not I’m mistaken) that said a while back that Bernie Sanders never has committed to the Democratic Party as he still considers himself an Independent. With that being said since Bernie Sanders has never fully committed to the Democratic Party why should the Democratic Party fully commit to him. I say the hell with Bernie Sanders and the hell with the vast majority of his supporters. Looking forward to him eventually losing.......which he will. Just read the article below....especially the section about black voters.

James Carville warns of 'end of days' if Dems choose Bernie: 'I'm not interested in being in a cult!' — Fox News

James Carville, a political strategist and former top adviser to President Bill Clinton, sounded the alarm Monday about the prospect of Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., winning the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, calling such a choice the "end of days" for the party.

apple.news

 

[junglejim]

Here is the secret with Sanders. Take his plans seriously, not literally.

Know he is serious about helping people and improving the situation in many areas of the economy.

But don't think he can pass his platform as they are literally written. Some stuff is clearly unworkable.

To me its irresponsible to set the baseline for candidacy as free health care, free college, increased social security, new gigantic climate change legislation because now every voter is going to expect this type of platform going forward and anyone who doesn't have it isn't progressive enough. At the end of the day, we will end up with some gigantic dumbed down version of the platform he ran on for republican's to point at and say how ****** this it like they did with Obamacare

 

[Belgium]

 

[RustyShackleford]

It's Trumpian in that sense. Big ideas, but little regard for implementation. He can rile people up and get them behind it, though.

If we just compare the two as proposing grand plans that anyone can see are pie in the sky, sure, the comparison is not clean but I can see it. And I feel both use negative partisanship against liberal Democrat to fire up their base. This is why the identity politics ******* Bernie was push was so dangerous.

However I don't think we should stop the analysis there...

Bernie says that he alone can't get it done. Many of supporters view him as gry60 calls it "a benevolent Santa Claus" whose election will make things happen because of his conviction to his left wing plans. But in reality Bernie admits that change happens with a bunch of smaller politicial actors coordinating for a cause. Trump whole pitch is that only he can get things done.

Bernie has principles, Trump doesn't. Trump will say one thing today and do the opposite tomorrow. Bernie is not like that. While I don't consider him nearly as pure as some of his supporters claim, Bernie's hustle seems to always be going in one direction.

 

[junglejim]

If we just compare the two as proposing grand plans that anyone can see are pie in the sky, sure, the comparison is not clean but I can see it. And I feel both use negative partisanship against liberal Democrat to fire up their base. This is why the identity politics ****ery Bernie was push was so dangerous.

However I don't think we should stop the analysis there...

Bernie says that he alone can't get it done. Many of supporters view him as gry60 calls it "a benevolent Santa Claus" whose election will make things happen because of his conviction to his left wing plans. But in reality Bernie admits that change happens with a bunch of smaller politicial actors coordinating for a cause. Trump whole pitch is that only he can get things done.

Bernie has principles, Trump doesn't. Trump will say one thing today and do the opposite tomorrow. Bernie is not like that. While I don't consider him nearly as pure as some of his supporters claim, Bernie's hustle seems to always be going in one direction.

Bernie also doesnt appear to have a brain condition

 

[handullz]

$30 trillion plan that saves money. If we keep going at the trajectory we’re on w/ this current ineffective and inefficient model, we’ll pay $35 trillion.

Media always seem to leave that part out, but I’m sure it’s a just a coincidence...

or, as the late Handullz Sr would say, a co-winky-dink.

also, erecting an antiquated wall =\= catching up to the rest of the developed world on healthcare.

But by all means, juxtapose a sane idea with majority support in the country... to an insane idea that almost no one wants

 

[RustyShackleford]

$30 trillion plan that saves money. If we keep going at the trajectory we’re on w/ this current ineffective and inefficient model, we’ll pay $35 trillion.

Media always seem to leave that part out, but I’m sure it’s a just a coincidence...

or, as the late Handullz Sr would say, a co-winky-dink.

also, erecting an antiquated wall =\= catching up to the rest of the developed world on healthcare.

But by all means, juxtapose a sane idea with majority support in the country... to an insane idea that almost no one wants

Other countries have single payer, not other country does health insurance the way Bernie is proposing.

Healthcare spending comes from a ton of places. Sure it would save us money if it is centralized, but there are serious structural and economic issues at play to get to that place

It is hypocrisy to criticize one entity for not online the positives, while at the same time burying the negatives.

Many in this country don't want to have a honest discussion about health insurance and healthcare reform in America. Bernie unfortunately is one of those people too.

 

[-Red-]

Oh ok then

Many of his supporters believe he will bring in a ton of new voters into to the mix, driving turnout higher, and these new voters will be too much for Trump to overcome.

Bernie believes that there are enough marginal white voters don't vote Dem because the Dems don't offer progressive enough economic plans. And he can convince them to vote Dem again, or for the first time. These swing voters are crucial for Trump to have a path to the white house.

I don't buy that at all much. Not to say some of this won't happen, but I don't think it will be on the scale Bernie and his supporters think. I just don't think Bernie 2020 is on the level of Obama 2008.

I think the case for him as a nominee that he can be a kind of unity candidate. The Dems need everyone in the coalition to show up at the polls. Sanders supporters seem to pose the greatest risk of shunning the party if Bernie is not the nominee. If Sanders is on the ticket, his supporters will be excited for November and will be in the big tent pissing out, inside of acting like outsiders pissing in.
The Democratic Party is a large coalition with people motivated by different interest, and Bernie will align with those interest in some way. And also who cares if those people don't rock with Bernie 100%, they want to get Trump out first and foremost for negative partisanship against Trump will lock in voters not excited about a Sanders presidency.

If Bernie plays his cards right he can unify the party better than any other candidate.

I left out the negatives though.

To add to this:

1. It's not just about bringing in and converting, respectively, non-voting and GOP-leaning working-class whites. It's about bringing in millions of working-class people of all backgrounds who don't currently vote.
2. The idea is that you can do this by inspiring people with a bold vision of a different kind of country and world—telling people that the difficulties in their lives are not their own fault and are not something to be ashamed of and immobilized by, but that they are imposed by our political economy and that people deserve and should demand a better quality of life. And this vision is rooted not in some vague rhetorical talk about "change" and "inspiration" and "unity" or whatever, but in a concrete vision that speak to the realities shaping people's daily lives.
3. He has been the most consistent in his politics for the longest. He has not been perfectly consistent or mistake-free, but people know where he stands and what he wants to do and can credibly believe his sincerest intention to implement his agenda, more so than any other candidate. So this can help inspire people and it will also mean that Trump will have a very hard time attacking Bernie about any kind of hypocrisy. He also won't be able to hang the failures of the Democratic Party on Bernie. On the other hand, he will have a ******* field day doing these things with every other Democratic candidate still in the race. To be clear, these attacks will be mostly in bad faith and Trump is still worse no matter which way you slice it, but there will be enough truth to the critiques to make many of them stick.
4. Bernie has by far the most committed and excited base of supporters who will work tirelessly to get him elected and pour whatever money they can into his coffers. His base of fervent supporters is much larger than any other candidate's. There is basically no competition on these fronts.

Undergirding all of this is the actual substance of his political vision that resonates with people for reasons I think are incredibly obvious.

I also left out the negatives.

 

[RustyShackleford]

To add to this:

1. It's not just about bringing in and converting, respectively, non-voting and GOP-leaning working-class whites. It's about bringing in millions of working-class people of all backgrounds who don't currently vote.
2. The idea is that you can do this by inspiring people with a bold vision of a different kind of country and world—telling people that the difficulties in their lives are not their own fault and are not something to be ashamed of and immobilized by, but that they are imposed by our political economy and that people deserve and should demand a better quality of life. And this vision is rooted not in some vague rhetorical talk about "change" and "inspiration" and "unity" or whatever, but in a concrete vision that speak to the realities shaping people's daily lives.
3. He has been the most consistent in his politics for the longest. He has not been perfectly consistent or mistake-free, but people know where he stands and what he wants to do and can credibly believe his sincerest intention to implement his agenda, more so than any other candidate. So this can help inspire people and it will also mean that Trump will have a very hard time attacking Bernie about any kind of hypocrisy. He also won't be able to hang the failures of the Democratic Party on Bernie. On the other hand, he will have a ****ing field day doing these things with every other Democratic candidate still in the race. To be clear, these attacks will be mostly in bad faith and Trump is still worse no matter which way you slice it, but there will be enough truth to the critiques to make many of them stick.
4. Bernie has by far the most committed and excited base of supporters who will work tirelessly to get him elected and pour whatever money they can into his coffers. His base of fervent supporters is much larger than any other candidate's. There is basically no competition on these fronts.

Undergirding all of this is the actual substance of his political vision that resonates with people for reasons I think are incredibly obvious.

I also left out the negatives.

Ok

I generally agree with you it is just that I don't think his appeal in the places you outlined it that strong. Also, I think his appeal to marginal white voters is not strictly his economics.

Also, just like Trump's base can't elect him, Bernie's can't either. So that gives me zero comfort.