***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Brownstone]

My fundamental problem with left or right wing populism, is it always seems to involve saying incorrect **** voters like because voters don't understand it.

This stuff probably works for Bernie politically,

but if you actually had to deliver on anti immigration leftism, the project would end in tears.

I am confused are you saying what Bernie is saying here is incorrect or that inaction on the left has led to confusion on the left with regards to immigration

 

[rexanglorum]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I am confused are you saying what Bernie is saying here is incorrect or that inaction on the left has led to confusion on the left with regards to immigration

Bernie is incorrect.

He's saying incorrect **** because it sounds good to voters who don't understand immigration.

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

Bernie is incorrect.

He's saying incorrect **** because it sounds good to voters who don't understand immigration.

Yeah, I disagree with Bernies characterization of the program. The main function of the H1-B visa program is to meet shortages in the workforce due to a lack of skills among local workers.

The system is being abused by employers who intentionally cheapen the labor, which lowers interest in the positions they want to fill, claim to the US government that a labor shortage exists, and reach out to foreign workers willing to fill the position for those lower wages.

Still, the H1-B visa program is still needed for American companies and institutions that still do R&D if we hope to keep up with the competition in tech/science fields. It's not an issue that should be approached with broad generalizations.

 

[Brownstone]

Yeah, I disagree with Bernies characterization of the program. The main function of the H1-B visa program is to meet shortages in the workforce due to a lack of skills among local workers.

The system is being abused by employers who intentionally cheapen the labor, which lowers interest in the positions they want to fill, claim to the US government that a labor shortage exists, and reach out to foreign workers willing to fill the position for those lower wages.

Still, the H1-B visa program is still needed for American companies and institutions that still do R&D if we hope to keep up with the competition in tech/science fields. It's not an issue that should be approached with broad generalizations.

Semantics but I actually think Bernies statement is correct.

Purpose verse function. You are correct the propose of the program is to meet demand, the function has turned into cheap and subservient labor for large companies

I also agree, it's a great and essential program that is being adequately used I am sure in some places. You don't really move the needle on reform with nuanced policy levers (Bernies perspective)

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Semantics but I actually think Bernies statement is correct.

Purpose verse function. You are correct the propose of the program is to meet demand, the function has turned into cheap and subservient labor for large companies

I also agree, it's a great and essential program that is being adequately used I am sure in some places. You don't really move the needle on reform with nuanced policy levers (Bernies perspective)

Bernie is incorrect.

 

[Brownstone]

Bernie is incorrect.

Semantics is how these people keep tricking folks. But I will bite.

As mentioned these jobs are highly skilled and high paying, comparing it to median income should be your first clue deception is afoot.

Also, notice how it says employers and there are no job statistics? No actual numbers of jobs. Afterall that is the number that matters no?

78% of employers is meaningless. 90% of employers are small and medium sized businesses. The problem is large companies (ie the ones where these workers are being abused and tbh mostly want to work)

Wage growth should be with industry and not across the population at large. What was the growth for Non H1b holders in tech over the same period? I would venture close to 150% if not more....

The highlighted part is confusing on purpose, what is a prevailing wage? Also what job is particular?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Semantics is how these people keep tricking folks. But I will bite.

As mentioned these jobs are highly skilled and high paying, comparing it to median income should be your first clue deception is afoot.

Also, notice how it says employers and there are no job statistics? No actual numbers of jobs. Afterall that is the number that matters no?

78% of employers is meaningless. 90% of employers are small and medium sized businesses. The problem is large companies (ie the ones where these workers are being abused and tbh mostly want to work)

The highlighted part is confusing on purpose, what is a prevailing wage? Also what job is particular?

The first graph has the 90th percentile wage, so the H1-B visas holder have an income that is higher than the 90th percentile. thats around 208k

Unless you think all the high skill jobs have incomes way higher 208k , I really doubt the H1-B visas are dragging anyones wage down.

The highlighted part is confusing on purpose, what is a prevailing wage? Also what job is particular?

"The prevailing wage rate is defined as the average wage paid to similarly employed workers in a specific occupation in the area of intended employment. " per the BLS

78% of employers is meaningless. 90% of employers are small and medium sized businesses. The problem is large companies (ie the ones where these workers are being abused and tbh mostly want to work)

The numbers are from the the department of labour, if that were true and like 80% of the jobs were from a small number of companies.
Do you really think they would be stupid enough to not account for that? wouldn't that be an incredibly stupid mistake to make?

you can even look an unemployment rates in H1B visas fields;

Similarly, a recent study found that, between 2005 and 2018, an increase in the share of workers within a particular occupation who were H-1B visa holders was associated with a decrease in the unemployment rate within that occupation. Another recent study found that restrictions on H-1B visas (such as rising denial rates) motivate U.S.-based multinational corporations to decrease the number of jobs they offer in this country. Instead, the corporations increase employment at their existing foreign affiliates or open new foreign affiliates—particularly in India, China, and Canada. A study conducted in 2019 revealed that higher rates of successful H-1B applications were positively correlated with an increased number of patents filed and patent citations. Moreover, such startups were more inclined to secure venture capital funding and achieve successful IPOs or acquisitions.

there isn't any evidence these visas are a drag on wages.

This is pure vibes based old school left wing anti immigration rhetoric.

 

[Brownstone]

I am not going by vibes man, I am going by lived experience. When I left grad school several years ago I saw first hand my classmates take jobs at Apple and other firms that were well below what my American classmates received.

Do you work in tech? Do you work for a fortune 500?

Took me 5 seconds to google a large firm that was found to do this (Deloitte)

In at least one leading company, foreign-born talents are paid less

Leaked payroll data may contradict everything you thought you knew about the economic impact of high-skilled legal immigration.

business.gmu.edu

I am not gonna go back and forth with you, I have said my piece and you have sated yours.

I work in tech and see it all the time, Large companies outsource tech builds offshore, and hire H1bs in place of qualifying Americans (my firm doesn't do this btw)

Keep thinking they don't, and keep thinking the department of labor is keeping tabs on Apple and other large tech firms adequately

Link to the original study if anyone is interested

H-1B Visas and Wages in Accounting: Evidence from Big 4 Payroll and the Ethics of H-1B Visas - Journal of Business Ethics

We use payroll data from a Big 4 accounting firm to examine the starting wage differentials for H-1B visa holders. Prior research in other industries has found mixed results, but primarily relies on surveyed salary data. We observe that relative to U.S. citizen new hires—matched on office...

link.springer.com

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I am not going by vibes man, I am going by lived experience. When I left grad school several years ago I saw first hand my classmates take jobs at Apple and other firms that were well below what my American classmates received.

Do you work in tech? Do you work for a fortune 500?

Took me 5 seconds to google a large firm that was found to do this (Deloitte)

In at least one leading company, foreign-born talents are paid less

Leaked payroll data may contradict everything you thought you knew about the economic impact of high-skilled legal immigration.

business.gmu.edu

I am not gonna go back and forth with you, I have said my piece and you have sated yours.

I work in tech and see it all the time, Large companies outsource tech builds offshore, and hire H1bs in place of qualifying Americans (my firm doesn't do this btw)

Keep thinking they don't, and keep thinking the department of labor is keeping tabs on Apple and other large tech firms adequately

Link to the original study if anyone is interested

H-1B Visas and Wages in Accounting: Evidence from Big 4 Payroll and the Ethics of H-1B Visas - Journal of Business Ethics

We use payroll data from a Big 4 accounting firm to examine the starting wage differentials for H-1B visa holders. Prior research in other industries has found mixed results, but primarily relies on surveyed salary data. We observe that relative to U.S. citizen new hires—matched on office...

link.springer.com

i think if this was having a big effect on wages it would be easy to see, you wouldn't need 2 studies based off accounting firm data that allege a max 10% decrease

but lets say I grant that and it is 10% less starting salary.


Given the compliance cost that comes with an h1b visa (the study you posted says this could account for the 10% difference), the low acceptance rate (approx 24%),

the idea that this is dragging down the salary of a native born worker still doesn't make sense. A native born american has more than enough advantages that can account for that small starting salary difference.

and given that unemployment in these fields are incredibly low.

no american worker should be taking less because they have to compete with someone who will take 10% less ONLY if they can get a visas that costs 10k and only has a 24% acceptance rate.

 

[Mark Antony]

Bernie is incorrect.

He's saying incorrect **** because it sounds good to voters who don't understand immigration.

Still speaking to the "economic anxiety" crowd.

 

[biggie62]

What is being missed here because I see it in my industry somewhat is not that they bring down salaries much. These people are working 2x as much because they are wanting to be extended and eventually sponsored for a green card after staying st the firm for 5-7 years.

But by working 2x as much they somewhat are bringing down salaries as well.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What is being missed here because I see it in my industry somewhat is not that they bring down salaries much. These people are working 2x as much because they are wanting to be extended and eventually sponsored for a green card after staying st the firm for 5-7 years.

But by working 2x as much they somewhat are bringing down salaries as well.

1. given how low unemployment rate is in these industries, it doesn't seem its leading to a bunch of americans not finding work in these fields.


2. "These immigrants are working harder than me and thus forcing me to work hard!" is not a very sympathetic argument.

 

[gry60]

H-1B Visas and Wages in Accounting: Evidence from Big 4 Payroll and the Ethics of H-1B Visas - Journal of Business Ethics

We use payroll data from a Big 4 accounting firm to examine the starting wage differentials for H-1B visa holders. Prior research in other industries has found mixed results, but primarily relies on surveyed salary data. We observe that relative to U.S. citizen new hires—matched on office...

link.springer.com

Love how the authors preface that they based their study on hacked salary data

2. "These immigrants are working harder than me and thus forcing me to work hard!" is not a very sympathetic argument.

Funny because we are naturalized, and we're not exactly trying to live in the office.

My issue with what Musk is trying to do with H-1B is that he wants to increase the share of his captive workforce. I'm good on that, especially when worker rights in the US are already the weakest among developed nations. On top of that, he has mentioned that he plans to use it to sidestep the need to educate younger generations of Americans.

While your rebuttal regarding the impact on income is well taken, there are other factors that make Elon's intended use of the program very problematic.

 

[biggie62]

1. given how low unemployment rate is in these industries, it doesn't seem its leading to a bunch of americans not finding work in these fields.


2. "These immigrants are working harder than me and thus forcing me to work hard!" is not a very sympathetic argument.

Im an immigrant myself so lets not forget that.

However, employers know they have them by the balls so they for sure exploit them. By paying them about equal while working of that of 1.5-2 people well that is depressing wages. There are plenty of skilled enough coders, finance, accountants to fill these voids domestically. They just won’t deal with full **** conditions. Especially gen z and millennials
now.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Im an immigrant myself so lets not forget that.

However, employers know they have them by the balls so they for sure exploit them. By paying them about equal while working of that of 1.5-2 people well that is depressing wages. There are plenty of skilled enough coders, finance, accountants to fill these voids domestically. They just won’t deal with full **** conditions. Especially gen z and millennials
now.

You say this but the unemployment rate in these fields are very low.
according to the data an INCREASE in H1B's correlates to a decrease in unemployment in that field. decrease in H1Bs doesn't seem to yeild more job openings in said feild.

Similarly, a recent study found that, between 2005 and 2018, an increase in the share of workers within a particular occupation who were H-1B visa holders was associated with a decrease in the unemployment rate within that occupation. Another recent study found that restrictions on H-1B visas (such as rising denial rates) motivate U.S.-based multinational corporations to decrease the number of jobs they offer in this country. Instead, the corporations increase employment at their existing foreign affiliates or open new foreign affiliates—particularly in India, China, and Canada. A study conducted in 2019 revealed that higher rates of successful H-1B applications were positively correlated with an increased number of patents filed and patent citations. Moreover, such startups were more inclined to secure venture capital funding and achieve successful IPOs or acquisitions.

doesn't this indicate that there is a shortage of workers?

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

here is my problem with all this.

Lets say its true, and H1B depresses wages for native born tech workers byt 10% or it forces tech workers to work harder because of foreign competition.

This absolutely helps 99% of americans, increasing productivity and GDP.


and hurts a tiny segment of americans who have a median salary of 200k a year.



is the idea that we should restrict immigration to protect a tiny group of of 200k a year tech workers?

at the expense of the entire country? and this is supposed to be progressive? it all sounds crazy to me.

 

[mplsdunk]

Sounds to me like tech needs to organize

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Sounds to me like tech needs to organize

again do they? and would that be good?

they are highly paid, in demand, low unemployment. would it really be good if they formed a cartel to exclude foreign workers? raising costs and lowering productivity for all americans?

is it good when American Medical Association tries to limit foreign doctors?

 

[mplsdunk]

Who said excluding foreign workers, my boy has been here on a green card since I don’t even know when and he’s in the same union as me.

He doesn’t undercut me or work harder and I don’t do the same to him.

Highly paid and low unemployment isn’t end all be all.

All organizing is is democracy in the work place, sounds like a contract would benefit everyone here.

 

[dacomeup]

A shortage of competent/capable American workers to fill these jobs with no discussion of strengthening public schools, partnerships with tech companies and public universities, etc., seems to miss the mark entirely IMO.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Like I said before, if people are making a list of old Democrats that need to retire. Bernie should be near the top of the list.

I always thought the positives with him out weigh the negatives. But now, nah.

Sloppy nativism is not something that will help American worker or the Democratic party.

 

[IATT]