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Why has this become a Cowboys thread? The rivalry is over.....
Official Pittsburgh Steelers vs Tennessee Titans Thread. NFL Season Kickoff!!
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by brrraptors,
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i like to think of marvin harrison as this decade's tim brown. so if i use your logic, tim brown is the greatest receiver ever because he had bums throwingto him for 80 percent of his career while harrison had peyton. but for real, none of that matters when talking about the hall of fame. its about numbers andtitles i guess. hines ward being on 2 super bowl teams is going to be what gets him in, if he gets in at all. just like i said earlier about swann.
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my goal this year is to watch 3 football games a week
the 9ers, raiders and cal bears.
So far im on track ( i didn't watch the game today)
the 9ers, raiders and cal bears.
So far im on track ( i didn't watch the game today)
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Holt has 3,000+ more yards in those 10 years, and Harrison had a streak of 8 straight years with 1,100+ yards and 10+ td's. Ward has two seasons like thatin his whole career.
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so if ward gets in the HOF i guess Derrick Mason should be getting his speech ready also? cause there really the same type of player
look at Art Monk numbers and see how long it took him to get in, Chris Carter numbers #%@* on alot of HOF but dude still cant get it
it took Michael Irvin what 4 years to get in the HOF after he was eligible
and you seem to think Hines ward is going to get in the HOF?
look at Art Monk numbers and see how long it took him to get in, Chris Carter numbers #%@* on alot of HOF but dude still cant get it
it took Michael Irvin what 4 years to get in the HOF after he was eligible
and you seem to think Hines ward is going to get in the HOF?
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Most cowboys fans are bandwagoners to begin with.. then tend to gravitate heavily towards the champs, I guess. Mostly though, I think it'sjust a jealousy thing. Can't blame them.
Well - do you not believe Tim Brown was a great WR?
That's not truly my logic anyways.. i'm just trying to point out that you have to think that Hines numbers are slightly deflated while a guy likeMH's numbers are definitely inflated.
edit: add this quote
Holt has 3,000+ more yards in those 10 years, and Harrison had a streak of 8 straight years with 1,100+ yards and 10+ td's. Ward has two seasons like that in his whole career.
Hell - even Holt early in his career benefited greatly from Kurt Warner and the turf show they ran there.
This is why tempo-free stats really need to be used in all sports... it's the only way to really measure people equally. I don't think they exist yetin football though, but I gaurantee you that they would prove Hines a more efficient WR than Marvin Harrison by a lot.
The other thing I find really comical on NT is how I'm known as a homer because of how I get in these threads. If you asked anybody who knew me in reallife, I'd be called the most cynical, own-team-hating fan they know... i guess it's just like a family thing, where it's okay for you to rip onyour people but nobody on the outside better say a sideways word about them.
Either way - I try to use numbers and logic in any argument I make... can the rest of you "non-homers" say such a thing?
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I'm willing to give you Moss and Owens.. those were the two I had in mind when i said 3. Holt is my dude, and I put him on equal footing with Hines in terms of what they've done the last 10 years statistically. But Hines will get the upper hand here when it comes to his hardware.
Marvin Harrison and Derrick Mason shouldn't be in the same conversation, in my opinion. Especially not Mason.
You sleepin on Mason... He's put up 1,000 yard seasons ever since '01; '06 was the only he aint go over 1,000 yards receiving.
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"Either way - I try to use NUMBERS and logic in any argument I make... can the rest of you "non-homers" say such a thing?"
Do you even know what you are writing?
Do you even know what you are writing?
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Well - do you not believe Tim Brown was a great WR?
That's not truly my logic anyways.. i'm just trying to point out that you have to think that Hines numbers are slightly deflated while a guy like MH's numbers are definitely inflated.
im a raider fan. i think tim brown is one of the best receivers ever. i also know that hes not going to get into the hall for a minute though. thats just howit goes. he never won a superbowl and didnt play on great teams until early this decade. if he had 2 superbowls he would be in first ballot but oh well. i likehines ward but i dont think he is one of the greatest receivers ever. but like i said, it seems like winners get into the hall of fame before people who trulydeserve it.
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Where haven't I strictly discussed numbers bud?
Maybe you use raw data, which is fine.. but if you read the rest of what I wrote, I talked explicitly about how I won't do that.. raw numbers arecompletely misleading, they need context and they have to be normalized somehow.
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Tim Brown should get in the HOF, one of the best to play out there, always liked him, even with a Jay Schroeder throwing to him
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Derrick Mason played in a Run offense his whole career so he is in the HOF to right?
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Do you ever just cut the %$@@#$%$?
If you have a problem with me, just ignore me... quit trolling every thread I'm in.
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But you are normalizing them to the point of making others' accomplishments trivial. Basically, if other people had better stats than Hines (save for Mossand Owens), other factors necessarily caused this. However, you also say that Hines' lack of stats is b/c "he is not built that way". I justdon't get it. How you can discount Marvin Harrison's accomplishments when he is smaller and scrawnier than Hines is beyond me.
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I don't see how they contradict each other based on what you're asking.
Other factors can cause people to have better or worse stats than they might have in a normalized setting.
MH benefitted from playing indoors and on in a fast paced, through the air offense with one of the greatest QB's of all time.
Where am I getting tripped up here in what I said? No sarcasm.. just not understanding your question...
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Hell - even Holt early in his career benefited greatly from Kurt Warner and the turf show they ran there.
This is why tempo-free stats really need to be used in all sports... it's the only way to really measure people equally. I don't think they exist yet in football though, but I gaurantee you that they would prove Hines a more efficient WR than Marvin Harrison by a lot.
Either way - I try to use numbers and logic in any argument I make... can the rest of you "non-homers" say such a thing?
You said...
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how am i trolling? im calling you out for the dumb crap you just said
you still haven't ask the simple question most of us are asking
If hines ward is a HOF then that means Derrick Mason is aslo right?
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As Hines Ward? C'mon now.
EDIT:
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how many pump fakes did big ben throw
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you still haven't ask the simple question most of us are asking
If hines ward is a HOF then that means Derrick Mason is aslo right?
Almost identical stats except for touchdowns, which are MUCH different in favor of Hines... plus the other things Hines has that he doesn't... superbowlMVP for starters.
How is 3,000 more yards on "equal footing" statistically? You didn't bring up anything about who his quarterback was, or say anything about "tempo free".
You don't think the type of offense they played in their whole careers matters? Just because I didn't say it right that seconddoesn't mean it wasn't part of my analysis, don't nitpick words just to be a prick.
You brought up Peyton as a reason for Harrison(a 3 time 1st team All-Pro) having such big numbers. Isn't Ben a top 5 QB? Why couldn't Hines get 1,000 yards or 10 td's in 3 of the last 4 years with a top 5 QB?
Just because he's a top 5 QB doesn't mean he puts up the same numbers as Peyton or Brady... again, it's a run-first team... everyoneknows this.
If Hines played for the Colts, we don't know how many more catches he may have had in his career... but do you honestly believe he wouldn't have more? And vice versa, put Marvin on the Steelers and you don't think his career is significantly different by the numbers?
Are you the same guy who said that Bill Cowher was a bad head coach?
Yes - he was overly conservative and carried by great coordinators through most of his tenure. Steelers had enough talent while he was there to win at least 2more superbowls.
Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald comin up on that second tier real real quick from a stats perspective...
Hines Ward pretty clearly doesn't belong with the top tier from a stats perspective.. Is two Super Bowls enough to push him over the top? I think it will be. But it's not ridiculous to suggest it shouldn't, I don't think...
Suggest is much different than out-right laugh at the idea, which is what most of these guys in here were doing before the case was made for him.
I thank you for at least doing the research that I was looking at before just shooting off at the mouth like these other guys. I know we don't always getalong on here, but at least I can count on you to generally back up anything you say.. that's saying something around here.
For the record... I don't believe that Swann necessarily deserved to get in... but if we aren't going to value championships, and major parts of thosechampionships, then I don't see the point of even having them.
It's similar to the NBA MVP awards each year... everyone talks about how guys on these lower-tier teams deserve this and that, but if you aren't on awinning team putting up good numbers, doesn't that taint them somewhat?
marionthebarberian
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none.
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Suggest is much different than out-right laugh at the idea, which is what most of these guys in here were doing before the case was made for him.
Ward being a Hall of Famer was never the main issue; your absurd claim of there not being three receivers better than Ward over the past decadewas what started this.
I thank you for at least doing the research that I was looking at before just shooting off at the mouth like these other guys. I know we don't always get along on here, but at least I can count on you to generally back up anything you say.. that's saying something around here.
"Shooting off at the mouth?"
You mean naming most of the same players that Jay just posted stats for?
how many pump fakes did big ben throw
none.
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this dude is all over the board now
it was
it was
