Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed

[floodarea]

Why would they flash back to Jiren then?

They’ve literally faced four other threats that were stronger and pushed their boundaries? And Goku would’ve went UI against Broly and deaded it.

And the Battle of the Gods and Return of the F aren’t cannon?

they don’t want to put them in the movie to avoid confusion bc they know most people ain't reading the manga i’m assuming

battle of gods and resurrection f are definitely canon too

 

[goldmember]

Show and movies isnt connected to the current manga. That’s why they still kept talking about Jiren

Also UI omen washing the strongest warrior coz it fits with his current state of mind? lol..might as well give him a new transformation

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Why would they flash back to Jiren then?

They’ve literally faced four other threats that were stronger and pushed their boundaries? And Goku would’ve went UI against Broly and deaded it.

And the Battle of the Gods and Return of the F aren’t cannon?

Edit: just watched the sub to confirm. The convo talked about “so many strong folks out there” including broly, Jiren, and the gods. Technically at this point moro and the folks from this current arc would have been defeated already and may even be dead

As far as cannon goes I think the retelling of the movies in the anime and manGa are what’s considered cannon, not the movies themselves. The only canon movies we have are broly and this movie (until I see otherwise)

 

[floodarea]

i mean sure man whatever

 

[goldmember]

Yea thats bull ****

Whats the point of mastered UI? lol

 

[floodarea]

Yea thats bull ****

Whats the point of mastered UI? lol

dude is basically just settling for “good enough”

 

[x Buddha Bless x]

All of Goku’s transformations until Super didn’t have any special requirements or special conditions. He just needed to get stronger and train harder.

Super Saiyan god needed like 5 other saiyans to give their power. Then they went back to the usual where Super Saiyan Blue just needed more training.

UI has been even more out there with the whole peace of mind aspect to do the transformation and the state of reacting instead of thinking.

So it makes sense Goku just like Vegeta opting to ditch UI altogether, is more suited to a different type of transformation. It’s clear why UI is an angel technique and ultra ego is used by gods of destruction. There probably should be some other technique more suited for Goku.

 

[spiderjericho]

Is UE used by Gods of Destruction?

It seems like a stupid transformation. Like when Vegeta criticized Trunks for going ascended super Saiyan. Goku in UI has the benefit of avoiding attacks, power, etc.

That last chapter made no sense. It’s like we’re dragging our feet on this arc.

Yea thats bull ****

Whats the point of mastered UI? lol

Just adding to how nothing makes sense now.

 

[floodarea]

an equally puzzling question is what is the point of ultra ego??

it’s literally done nothing for vegeta outside of giving him more reason to be knocked out

 

[spiderjericho]

Vegeta is supposed to be known for his cunning, guile, tenacity, etc. The form serves no benefit to how he fights.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

i always saw ultra ego as the literal personification of vegeta's battle philosophy "keep fighting at all costs". according to the wiki, ultra ego is a technique used by god's of destruction. the wiki also implies that vegeta has to take hits because to become stronger because he hasnt actually mastered the technique.

Apparently this was Beerus using ultra ego when training vegeta

 

[amitt5504]

All of Goku’s transformations until Super didn’t have any special requirements or special conditions. He just needed to get stronger and train harder.

Super Saiyan god needed like 5 other saiyans to give their power. Then they went back to the usual where Super Saiyan Blue just needed more training.

UI has been even more out there with the whole peace of mind aspect to do the transformation and the state of reacting instead of thinking.

So it makes sense Goku just like Vegeta opting to ditch UI altogether, is more suited to a different type of transformation. It’s clear why UI is an angel technique and ultra ego is used by gods of destruction. There probably should be some other technique more suited for Goku.

Sounds like Gohan should’ve had UI from the beginning like they teased it

 

[floodarea]

i always saw ultra ego as the literal personification of vegeta's battle philosophy "keep fighting at all costs". according to the wiki, ultra ego is a technique used by god's of destruction. the wiki also implies that vegeta has to take hits because to become stronger because he hasnt actually mastered the technique.

Apparently this was Beerus using ultra ego when training vegeta

yeah i’m calling bs on that wiki there’s literally no reference for gods ever using ultra ego and vegeta literally made up the name of the form on the spot

everything we’ve been shown and told up to this point is that this form is specific to vegeta and vegeta alone

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

yeah i’m calling bs on that wiki there’s literally no reference for gods ever using ultra ego and vegeta literally made up the name of the form on the spot

everything we’ve been shown and told up to this point is that this form is specific to vegeta and vegeta alone

I took it as vegeta using what he was taught by beerus and using by Him “using” it is what ultra ego is. It just happens that for vegeta when he uses it, a physical transformation accompanies it even though when beerus was training him he didn’t transform. Kinda like how when goku uses ultra instinct he undergoes a physical transformation even when the instances we see angels using ultra instinct they didn’t transform either.

Vegetas ultra ego is him using god of destruction powers right?

 

[spiderjericho]

Beerus is fast. He demonstrated it in the Manga. And he has Hakai.

Vegeta just demonstrated absorbing hits like bounty two ply.

Obviously, we saw UI in the anime so we could clearly see how Goku benefited by the form.

Even mastered, what does UE do?

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Beerus is fast. He demonstrated it in the Manga. And he has Hakai.

Vegeta just demonstrated absorbing hits like bounty two ply.

Obviously, we saw UI in the anime so we could clearly see how Goku benefited by the form.

Even mastered, what does UE do?

Maybe it allows vegeta to tap in to destruction energy to power himself up?

 

[floodarea]

Maybe it allows vegeta to tap in to destruction energy to power himself up?

the fact that we’re having to speculate what these new forms even do or their significance just highlights how poor this writing is

and on top of that, a form that basically requires you to get the **** beat out of you to work at its full potential is just dumb as rocks

 

[Barbados Slim]

Chapter looked great but what an absolute **** show this arc has turned into. Vegeta taking damage to get stronger... only....to...not....get stronger? His transformation is literally a stall techinque.
I can get down with Goku using Omen cause it suites him better but he's washing Gas in it. Gas was made the strongest after Granola. Even with a zenkai boost, Goku shouldn't be "a little stronger" than him.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

the fact that we’re having to speculate what these new forms even do or their significance just highlights how poor this writing is

and on top of that, a form that basically requires you to get the **** beat out of you to work at its full potential is just dumb as rocks

99% of lore gets expounded on outside of the manga pages in interviews with Toriyama and Toyotaro after the fact. Not my favorite way to go about things but it’s par for the course.

As for Vegeta, yeah it’s sucks lol but vegeta Is at the infancy of GoD training. I wouldn’t expect This to be the case long term. At least I hope not lmao. Atleast it comes with a pretty significant power up upfront so it’s not completely useless until he gets his *ss beat

 

[spiderjericho]

Just tells me the story is poorly written, developed, thought out.

I know Manga are different but Toyotara isn’t good at fleshing out whatever skeletons they’re getting from Toriyama.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Just tells me the story is poorly written, developed, thought out.

I know Manga are different but Toyotara isn’t good at fleshing out whatever skeletons they’re getting from Toriyama.

I’m just saying this isn’t new. Toriyama was bad at it too. Most of what we know about dragon ball z canon comes from the daizenshuu guide books that came out after the manga ended. Toriyama left so much out that they filled up 7 whole volumes lol and even then folks are still digging through 20 year old magazine interviews to shed more light on what’s canon. Dragon ball was never a franchise known for its robust plot lines

 

[floodarea]

I’m just saying this isn’t new. Toriyama was bad at it too. Most of what we know about dragon ball z canon comes from the daizenshuu guide books that came out after the manga ended. Toriyama left so much out that they filled up 7 whole volumes lol and even then folks are still digging through 20 year old magazine interviews to shed more light on what’s canon. Dragon ball was never a franchise known for its robust plot lines

there’s a difference between filling out lore (which the daizenshuu guides do) vs straight up plot holes and retcons which we've seen so much of since super began

dragon ball has never been known for deep stories sure but the arcs themselves prior to super we’re all written tight enough to where the daizenshuu guides aren’t actually needed to understand what is going on

the saiyan - frieza sagas are some of the most tightly written, best paced arcs in shonen so to fall back on the idea that toriyama has always been like this is a little silly

super at this point just keeps creating questions it doesn’t really have any plans of answering from what we’ve been shown

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

there’s a difference between filling out lore (which the daizenshuu guides do) vs straight up plot holes and retcons which we've seen so much of since super began

dragon ball has never been known for deep stories sure but the arcs themselves prior to super we’re all written tight enough to where the daizenshuu guides aren’t actually needed to understand what is going on

the saiyan - frieza sagas are some of the most tightly written, best paced arcs in shonen so to fall back on the idea that toriyama has always been like this is a little silly

super at this point just keeps creating questions it doesn’t really have any plans of answering from what we’ve been shown

I think we benefit from the fact that by the time the majority of us consumed dragon ball/z the questions that arose during while watching were already answered. While super is unfolding in real time. don’t get me wrong, the pacing issues are there, the writing isn’t amazing but I bet we’d have the same issues if we didn’t have the benefit of not having to consume dbz at a snails pace, page by page, one chapter a month. Dbz still had a lot of plot holes too that didn’t get addressed until well after the fact or outside of the manga/anime all together. Like where’s vegeta’s tail? throw goten and trunks into that too. Or the fact that we don’t even know where/when cell came from because the cell that we see Doesn’t come from either the main timeline or trunks time line. I’m sure A lot of stuff had folks scratching their heads as they were reading the original manga as it came out only for it be answered years later either in the anime adaption, in the guide books, or with “Toriyama forgot” . Toriyama has forgotten entire characters out of existence lol

The biggest difference between now and then is that most of us are consuming super as adults that can critically think as opposed to being kids being fascinated that gokus first transformation into super saiyan was 3 episodes of him screaming at freiza

 

[x Buddha Bless x]

The reason why the Saiyan and Frieza sagas are tightly written is cuz that’s the only planned out story Toriyama had for Z. Even there are gaps and plot holes. Nobody simply focused more on the events of Dragonball to make enough noise. The retcons were well received; Make Goku an alien and then tie that in to the dragon balls with Piccolo being an alien, his home planet, Frieza as the big all powerful final villain ending with the reveal of a legendary super Saiyan.

That’s why there was always talk about Toriyama wanted to end Z after this arc or that saga. He came up with the Cell saga all stemming from a callback to Dragonball with the return of the red ribbon army and using to elevate Gohan in to the golden boy chosen one he set up at the start of Z.

In a sense the immense popularity and success of the anime and certain characters scrapped his plans to stop and have a natural end to the story. Now he’s milking things with this being the Goku show where the dragon balls are super, death means nothing, you get routine Vegeta fan service, and a random villain and story to keep it going.

Sounds like Gohan should’ve had UI from the beginning like they teased it

Personality and temperament wise it matches Gohan better but I get why fighting wise Goku was just simply way ahead of him and was the best bet.

 

[Master Zik]

Gohan went from unable to sense piccolo's ki (even pan can do it) to having a form stronger than goku and vegeta?

I didn't get the feel or message that new form could even stand up to super saiyan god let alone blue. Cuz again the final monster/villain was booty.

can we talk about that post credits scene too??

**** was just insulting to vegeta

he would never relish in a fake W like that

Nah, that seems like him.

He already knows in a real life or death battle he can't win.