Official Ask A Logical Religious Person Thread. vol. Ask me anything.

[magik ink 23]

Originally Posted by gambit215

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth. Alpha and Omega is the beginning and the end, Life and Death. Creation and Destruction. If you accept this, and still get upset over God allowing innocent babies to physically die then you need some reading comprehension my dude. The main thing the Bible emphasizes is the incorruptible holy spirit that resides in these temporary temples called bodies that people believe is all to existence. Those that believe in them self like that are foolish and disregard the role in their life. That's the true hypocrisy.

QFT

Problem is people try to humanize God, you cant do that, God is NOT ON YOUR LEVEL. He owes us no explanation for what HE does. You cannot bring logic when it comes to God..........its either you ride with it or you dont. God does not get angry, happy, jealous, or w/e. Bible was written by Man, Man is so arrogant he thinks he is the only thing that exist in this Universe. LOGICALLY you are a speck compared to our own planet, let alone the universe.

gambit215: 

Aside from QFT, I agree with everything you just said there. However... I think it might be for 2 different reasons. Everything you just said can totally be used as an atheists argument towards Christianity (and often is).
  

 

[torgriffith]

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth.

These types of arguments bring laughter to me.

You explained god's will by restating it..thanks for clearing that one up

People want logical explanations, how is that intellectual egoism?

Some of these religious ideals seem as ridiculous as you all claim the "non-believers'" are

The theory that I'm going to have God check my resume on judgement day seems like a joke to me, not to disrespect anyone's beliefs

to each his own

God's will as in God's wheel.  The clockmaker my friend. You gotta understand spells and words before you start saying what is what my dude.

 

[jfmartimcdandruff]

Originally Posted by Yen2dro3

If you lived in a third world country and live a sinless life but never heard of god or "Jesus" you go to hell?

i like this question.

Is that true for some people out there. I'm sure even people in the those countries believe in some higher being.

 

[Master Zik]

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Is it good because GOD commands it or does GOD command it because it is good?

 

[mke49er]

the main reason i dont believe in christianity or any religion based on christianity is this... how can one believe and follow the bible as your way to "salvation," when it is a known fact that constantine/counsil of nicea removed many of the books and changed phrases (basically edited the F*** out of it) in the bible? you can not understand a book that has numerous missing chapters and was re-wrote differently. but if an OG bible intact was found and i could learn to read it i'd probably be a christian it seems to be the closest to the truth (from all my studies) but has been edited too much for me. i just try to live good and do people right.

 

[spincv]

Can i go to iraq even if i am catholic. I.e thou shalt not kill.

 

[melovp]

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth.

These types of arguments bring laughter to me.

You explained god's will by restating it..thanks for clearing that one up

People want logical explanations, how is that intellectual egoism?

Some of these religious ideals seem as ridiculous as you all claim the "non-believers'" are

The theory that I'm going to have God check my resume on judgement day seems like a joke to me, not to disrespect anyone's beliefs

to each his own

God's will as in God's wheel.  The clockmaker my friend. You gotta understand spells and words before you start saying what is what my dude.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Christianity had too many uncertainties for me, so I canceled my subscription.

I imagine you're referencing the bible, when in this thread its been stated that the bible's evolved significantly from the original teachings

Essentially this book is comparable the story from a game of telephone in an elementary school classroom, yet its the gospel that billions swear by

just an easy way for the ruling elite to control the masses, whoever they may be

 

[air ih zona]

Originally Posted by gambit215

 Man is so arrogant he thinks he is the only thing that exist in this Universe.

C'mon, man nobody said that

Maybe someone else here is arrogant

Originally Posted by gambit215


God has not admitted NOTHING, I do not believe a human being on this planet has spoken to God and he replied.You have to work with the cards that were dealt to you man. Stop tryingto humanize God, He is not on your level. Like I said before, God is all powerful, but he is not  a genie who changes things at will. He does not need to prove his power to you to justify who HE is. You are the chosen species he has designed to control the world, you are lucky to even have made it this far to even feel the way you feel.



everyone who doubts Him will have it coming sooner or later.

Sono one has spoken to God, but you claim he's an all-powerful person butnot a genie who changes things at will and chose us out of all the  species?? I mean, that has to be your own opinion then..
Oh yeah and like doubting something that never has been seen, heard or spoken to, remember you said that, will "have it"

 

[south sole]

Originally Posted by spincv

Can i go to iraq even if i am catholic. I.e thou shalt not kill.

  Why are you going to Iraq in the first place?   Have you looked into the Roman Catholic origins? 
The bible warns us about false religions.  "...Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the sadducees..." Matthew 16:6

Basically from my interpretation Jesus saved us from the establishment, so to free us from indoctrination.  Yet we continue to accept religious Institutions  

   Peep this interview with 2pac speaks on the same thing. 

I personally found myself  a bible based church with a Pastor as the speaker as oppose to a Priest and continue to commiserate with people with positive energy.  There was a study conducted on church attendants in Psychology Today article basically stating that those who attend church have significantly lower risk of health ailments.  There is a correlation between commiserating with like minded people in a room and your health. It's a great way to reduce your level of stress when you socialize with people who bring positive energy all in one room.  I personally have more fun attending church with family members as oppose to club or concert crazing and getting drunk.   

And to those who want to better understand the concept of FREE WILL I suggest you guys to read PART TWO: EPILOGUE OF THE NOVEL WAR & PEACE- by LEO TOLSTOY.

If you don't comprehend the idea of FREE WILL after reading that, then I don't know what else to say. 

as always let's REACH for UNDERSTANDING, before we REACH for HATE. 

 

[torgriffith]

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth.

These types of arguments bring laughter to me.

You explained god's will by restating it..thanks for clearing that one up

People want logical explanations, how is that intellectual egoism?

Some of these religious ideals seem as ridiculous as you all claim the "non-believers'" are

The theory that I'm going to have God check my resume on judgement day seems like a joke to me, not to disrespect anyone's beliefs

to each his own

God's will as in God's wheel.  The clockmaker my friend. You gotta understand spells and words before you start saying what is what my dude.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Christianity had too many uncertainties for me, so I canceled my subscription.

I imagine you're referencing the bible, when in this thread its been stated that the bible's evolved significantly from the original teachings

Essentially this book is comparable the story from a game of telephone in an elementary school classroom, yet its the gospel that billions swear by

just an easy way for the ruling elite to control the masses, whoever they may be

No my man. You got it wrong. I read where the Bible evolved from, the Bible we got now, Bibles for other religions and cultures and everything else. Just like the rest of the usurpers who have taken power, they still use and understand it whether they believe in it or not.  You say the elites use it to controll the masses right? So why not understand what they are doing for yourself rather than labeling it all hob snobbishly.  I'm more concerned with the archetypes rather than being entertained by the story which it seems is what you are looking for. If you understand that all the Bibles of all cultures are the same thing, you can look at it without a ridiculing eye like you have developed and see it for what it's worth, not just it's face value. I understand exactly where you're coming from, yet I've passed thought forms like that off along time ago because they allow you to have pride when you are truly blind.  I trace the source, I don't believe in said title ownership of the words of God by any particular religion for this truth cannot be bought or sold.  I hope you understand what I'm saying because you got me all wrong bud.

 

[lakersnation]

Originally Posted by JFMartiMcDandruff

Originally Posted by Yen2dro3

If you lived in a third world country and live a sinless life but never heard of god or "Jesus" you go to hell?

NO religious person, no matter how religious they are, can tell you if someone goes to heaven or hell. Thats for God to decide. God is merciful but is also just, so maybe that person will go to heaven maybe they'll go to hell thats not for us to decide.
BTW, no human(Jesus excluded) can ever live a completely sinless life because everyone is born with original sin thanks to Adam & Eve....

 

[melovp]

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth.

These types of arguments bring laughter to me.

You explained god's will by restating it..thanks for clearing that one up

People want logical explanations, how is that intellectual egoism?

Some of these religious ideals seem as ridiculous as you all claim the "non-believers'" are

The theory that I'm going to have God check my resume on judgement day seems like a joke to me, not to disrespect anyone's beliefs

to each his own

God's will as in God's wheel.  The clockmaker my friend. You gotta understand spells and words before you start saying what is what my dude.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Christianity had too many uncertainties for me, so I canceled my subscription.

I imagine you're referencing the bible, when in this thread its been stated that the bible's evolved significantly from the original teachings

Essentially this book is comparable the story from a game of telephone in an elementary school classroom, yet its the gospel that billions swear by

just an easy way for the ruling elite to control the masses, whoever they may be

No my man. You got it wrong. I read where the Bible evolved from, the Bible we got now, Bibles for other religions and cultures and everything else. Just like the rest of the usurpers who have taken power, they still use and understand it whether they believe in it or not.  You say the elites use it to controll the masses right? So why not understand what they are doing for yourself rather than labeling it all hob snobbishly.  I'm more concerned with the archetypes rather than being entertained by the story which it seems is what you are looking for. If you understand that all the Bibles of all cultures are the same thing, you can look at it without a ridiculing eye like you have developed and see it for what it's worth, not just it's face value. I understand exactly where you're coming from, yet I've passed thought forms like that off along time ago because they allow you to have pride when you are truly blind.  I trace the source, I don't believe in said title ownership of the words of God by any particular religion for this truth cannot be bought or sold.  I hope you understand what I'm saying because you got me all wrong bud.

I get what you're saying but even tho you know, what about the billions of sheep shuffling along because that's what their parents taught them as soon as they touched down

I know there's similarities across the religions, but what about on the ground level, where pastors have the flyest car and the sharpest suits, what part of the game is that? they use bible scriptures to write their own sermons so I can go to two churches from the same sect and get two completely interpretations, neither of which would lead me toward the truth

Knowledge is power indeed, but organized religion is a farce

how can you use the phrase "words of God" if we've established that God isn't human..is it possible for inanimate objects to speak?

I wasn't born with a religion, so I don't need it in my life..it's not false pride, I'm just rejecting it personally

that wasn't worded very well but #%@# it

 

[torgriffith]

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by MeloVP

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth.

These types of arguments bring laughter to me.

You explained god's will by restating it..thanks for clearing that one up

People want logical explanations, how is that intellectual egoism?

Some of these religious ideals seem as ridiculous as you all claim the "non-believers'" are

The theory that I'm going to have God check my resume on judgement day seems like a joke to me, not to disrespect anyone's beliefs

to each his own

God's will as in God's wheel.  The clockmaker my friend. You gotta understand spells and words before you start saying what is what my dude.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Christianity had too many uncertainties for me, so I canceled my subscription.

I imagine you're referencing the bible, when in this thread its been stated that the bible's evolved significantly from the original teachings

Essentially this book is comparable the story from a game of telephone in an elementary school classroom, yet its the gospel that billions swear by

just an easy way for the ruling elite to control the masses, whoever they may be

No my man. You got it wrong. I read where the Bible evolved from, the Bible we got now, Bibles for other religions and cultures and everything else. Just like the rest of the usurpers who have taken power, they still use and understand it whether they believe in it or not.  You say the elites use it to controll the masses right? So why not understand what they are doing for yourself rather than labeling it all hob snobbishly.  I'm more concerned with the archetypes rather than being entertained by the story which it seems is what you are looking for. If you understand that all the Bibles of all cultures are the same thing, you can look at it without a ridiculing eye like you have developed and see it for what it's worth, not just it's face value. I understand exactly where you're coming from, yet I've passed thought forms like that off along time ago because they allow you to have pride when you are truly blind.  I trace the source, I don't believe in said title ownership of the words of God by any particular religion for this truth cannot be bought or sold.  I hope you understand what I'm saying because you got me all wrong bud.

I get what you're saying but even tho you know, what about the billions of sheep shuffling along because that's what their parents taught them as soon as they touched down

I know there's similarities across the religions, but what about on the ground level, where pastors have the flyest car and the sharpest suits, what part of the game is that? they use bible scriptures to write their own sermons so I can go to two churches from the same sect and get two completely interpretations, neither of which would lead me toward the truth

Knowledge is power indeed, but organized religion is a farce

how can you use the phrase "words of God" if we've established that God isn't human..is it possible for inanimate objects to speak?

I wasn't born with a religion, so I don't need it in my life..it's not false pride, I'm just rejecting it personally

that wasn't worded very well but #%@# it

It's called pimpin brother. Pimp C said "you can't control her body if you can't control her mind"
The game is the game. Wherever you play it. The Bible even spoke of the false prophets, false jews and the whole cycles of creation and destruction. Just because we were born in the bad part of the cycle of this time doesn't mean we give up. We just watch it and let these cancerous parasitic empires collapse on themselves and learn our own hearts instead of succumbing to all the madness. 

And to your question about inanimate objects speaking, a picture says a thousand words 

.

That is why everybody is so spooked about all these conspiracy theories and symbols. Because it is now being revealed to the masses alchemical meaning of our images we use daily. i.e. Symbols on the "1" dollar bill. Why do you think advertisements work? Why are we having this discussion on niketalk.com. It's the power of the symbols, images and inanimate objects. The nike symbol is why majority of the peopls on this board are here. But do you know why nike swoosh is such a prominent symbol? Your conscience mind does not recognize them which is why you you disregard it. But your subconscious mind knows full and well what it means and processes it. You must understand that you are not totally conscious of everything you do. Do you tell yourself to breathe in, breath out, left foot, right foot?  

#1 Knowledge 

#2 Wisdom

#3 Understanding

Knowledge is power, but you need the 2s and 3s use it properly. 

Don't let the fact the the usurpers have soiled the establishment to the point people will want to reject what they need in life and that is understanding of the knowledge with a wise mind. 

Dogs leave there mark on their territory to keep others away.  Don't be another mad dog. Be a man and look past what they do my dude. People that see the madness are suited for cleaning it up, letting it pass, or burning out in rejective anger.

Just understand that the religion of this country is secularism/ capitalism. They put the green God that they trust on the money.

 

[theta]

Wow alright, this thread's doing better than i thought it would. A lot of good stuff. I'm going to be answering as many as I can right now. Will post back soon.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Theta

Wow alright, this thread's doing better than i thought it would. A lot of good stuff. I'm going to be answering as many as I can right now. Will post back soon.

Thanks to you and open-mindedness.


Moar questions:

Why are we so important to God? Or are we important to God? If he's all powerful why does he seem to be preoccupied with what we do?


If we discover alien species, does it discredit what is said in the bible? Or are Christians going to ad lib an explanation like they always do?

 

[Majorbread]

might have been asked but why isnt thier 1 religion? with so many how can people say that thier religion is the most accurate one?

People have trouble keeping records back to the 1800's accurately. How is the bible, 2000+yrs old supposed to be a 100% accurate document?

or something along the lines of that

 

[Majorbread]

Originally Posted by BIG SIPPIN SPENDIN CHEESE

Originally Posted by roboski

Why did Kobe have to hit that raw?

And

Why did Bush knock down them towers?

WHY?

 

[theta]

Originally Posted by bilbo07

If the bible says dont judge your neighbor, why are religious people some of the most judgemental people?

I agree with you entirely on this one. I've got a lot of problems of my own with institutionalized religion. The way the church runs is largely contrary to a lot that the religion preaches. I dont like the fact that somebody like the pope can deem things as right and wrong - I believe that Benedict condemned African Aid workers for handing out condoms in South Africa and said that they should stop doing it immediately and, instead, teach the Africans about the concept of abstinence... I've gone to Christian schools and non-christian schools, and the segregation at the Christian ones is nuts. Teachers, principals, students are all discriminating against atheists/agnostics.

My interpretation of why is that when youre told constantly how right/good you are and how you know the truth while everybody else becomes classified as "sinners". Youre told that youre going to heaven, they get sent to hell for all of eternity with the killers and rapists, I mean, how DONT you become judgmental? It frequently says that the only one to judge is God. Its kind of sad really.

Originally Posted by spincv

Can i go to iraq even if i am catholic. I.e thou shalt not kill.

I think so. The Bible makes a clear distinction between killing and murder and different passages elaborate on the differences in more detail. It has to do with malicious intent and attacking the innocent. I know that throughout the Bible, God tells a lot of different people that they have to go to war for diff. reasons. I know it says "Thou shalt not KILL" and not Thou shalt not murder, but the fact that its been translated so many times could reasonably explain a difference so small. The same can be said for policemen and killing in self defense; clearly it can be justified in some cases.

Originally Posted by LakersNation

Originally Posted by JFMartiMcDandruff

Originally Posted by Yen2dro3

If you lived in a third world country and live a sinless life but never heard of god or "Jesus" you go to hell?

NO religious person, no matter how religious they are, can tell you if someone goes to heaven or hell. Thats for God to decide. God is merciful but is also just, so maybe that person will go to heaven maybe they'll go to hell thats not for us to decide.
BTW, no human(Jesus excluded) can ever live a completely sinless life because everyone is born with original sin thanks to Adam & Eve....

For real man, people came in here asking me what heaven and hell are like and what will send who to where. Like, I think im pretty clever, but I'm not God lol. I dont know a lot of these things and I think when people come looking for ANSWERS instead of Justifications/Arguments, theyre going to be disappointed.

Originally Posted by ZeroGravity23

^ appreciate my dude. i have more questions.

if a fertilized egg has a soul, what happens if that egg splits in two to form identical twins? does each twin have half a soul? or did the original fertilized egg have two souls?

what about when the opposite happens, when two fertilized eggs fuse to form one human being, creating what is known as a chimera - a single human with two sets of dna? does that person have two souls? or did each original fertilized egg have only half a soul?

I'd say that with the soul thing, when the egg splits a new soul is created. This isnt unreasonable since a soul was created out of nothing when egg/sperm combined so thats would be my conclusion (continuing on from your assumptions that (1) souls exist, (2) fertilized eggs have souls).

With regards to chimera, I didnt know that people could have it. But considering what you have been saying, it looks like youre under the impression that eggs have souls and they are additive and divisible. My understanding was that souls are made upon the creation of an individual person - so one per person or consciousness or w/e. After thinking about siamese twins, I'd say two separate souls even though they have the same body (and same dna im assuming?) given that they have two independent sets of consciousness.

Originally Posted by Adrian1221

Theta, there was a time i didn't like you, but man im giving you props for this one

Thanks man. Lol but why didnt you like me?

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth. Alpha and Omega is the beginning and the end, Life and Death. Creation and Destruction. If you accept this, and still get upset over God allowing innocent babies to physically die then you need some reading comprehension my dude. The main thing the Bible emphasizes is the incorruptible holy spirit that resides in these temporary temples called bodies that people believe is all to existence. Those that believe in them self like that are foolish and disregard the role in their life. That's the true hypocrisy.

Dude, I cant agree with you on this one. About 90% of the questions and criticisms in this thread have been legitimate and deserving of a proper answer. I mean, I dont know what sports Jesus played as a kid or what color his jewfro was, but some people have really solid points. In terms of the thread falling off track, I honestly think the only time it has was when you posted. For some reason that really got to people and it was like a page of people attacking you personally while you did the same. A concept like divine will deserves an explanation beyond it is what it is. Most of the people here arent foolish, theyre agnostic and want a reasonable answer - hence the creation of this thread. Its understandable that somebody wont just accept a concept like Jesus because you tell them to in the same way that you wont accept Atheism because they tell you to. And honestly, how are you gonna be so emotional and hateful in your posts while calling THEM emotional and hypocrites... You claim to be part of a relgion thats not suppossed to judge, so stop doing it man and answer the quetions logically. It might take you a while to think of the answer, but w/e its better than saying the first thing that comes to mind (ie. it is what it is).

I dont mean to be harsh and it looks like your intentions are good but you have to consider that how you go about it can ultimately determine if its effective or if youre being counterproductive. Nothing personal.

Originally Posted by Magik ink 23

I don't know... it seems to me that the title of "logical religious person" is an oxymoron (as touched on earlier). You say you believe in the Big Bang but maybe "God" was the cause, but that's just illogical. The LOGICAL answer is (and always has been) we just don't know how it happened (yet). What I don't get is why can't people just be comfortable in the fact that they don't know? Isn't THAT the logical answer at this point in time?  Isn't choosing your religion over the many others illogical? Isn't choosing a religion at all illogical? Perhaps you are as logical as you possibly can be as a Christian? If everyone just went with the logical truth as we currently know it (which is that we really don't know), and devoted the time and effort to help find the truth (instead of a default, blind leap of faith) we could be that much closer to actually figuring it out. Just totally illogical to me... you agree with science to a point that the Big Bang happened, at which point you have to have an answer, and that answer is Christianity's God.

On a side note: Why does it HAVE to be "God" in a sense that most religions portray him? That's illogical! If there HAS to be a "God", or better yet, if everyone absoluetly HAS to believe in something, why can't it be something that we know actually exists and provides? If we have to have some sort of faith or "pray" to something to wouldn't it be more logical if that thing IS the Big Bang, or the sun, or the Earth, or ourselves? (You know, something that does not appear to be the actual orchestrator of ALL creation, but is an actual thing and provides us with life). Just to be clear I'm not saying "paganism" is the way to go, or anything like it. I'm not convinced we actually have a need to pray or believe in something bigger, but for those of you that do, I ask why can't it be toward something we actually know exists and is actually proven to be a great deal responsible for our creation (isn't that God?). Logic is my exact problem with religion.

The fact that I said that it MIGHT be God doesnt make it illogical. The logical term for what is did is called abductive reasoning or "inference to the best explanation". It means that if you dont have a better answer, it is logically acceptable to accept the next best answer as being valid. Think about it this way - say youre lost in the woods and you honestly have NO idea how to get out. Youre friend says - hey man, I think its this way (points in a random direction). You say: NO WAY MAN, YOURE BEING ILLOGICAL. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER IS THAT WE DONT KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO. Well... kind of. I mean, yeah we dont KNOW and nobody here is saying that there is no way we can be wrong, but to say that im illogical using abductive reasoning? Its basically the cornerstone of decision theory.

Saying that I'm as logical as I can possibly be as a Christian (and thus implying that Id be more logical if I wasnt) does two things. 1) Ironically, you commit a logical fallacy called the Ad Hominem fallacy. Its when you criticize an individual on self merit rather than on the ideas at hand. Wiki it if you want. 2) Funny enough, I wasnt always a Christian. For like 5 years I was a hardcore atheist, arguing just as militantly as I do no for the atheistic side. After considering every element thoroughly, I came to accept this ideology independently.

You say that we shouldnt have our beliefs in a God given that we do not have irrefutable proof and dedicate our time and collective efforts to finding the truth. Are you serious man? You think if everybody just got together and wanted to solve the Problem of God and just find out if God is real or not, they could do it..? And you call me illogical.

Another thing that you arent fully grasping is the notion that many people have irrefutable proof. Many people claim to have had God speak to them through prayer or another way and have felt God's presence. To them, they have all the proof that they'll ever need. Simply because its indemonstrable, you cant claim that it doesnt exist and anybody that says that this has happened to them is a liar? Once again, assuming that people dont know what they feel (so knowledge by introspection) is inductively illogical. This is because all day, every day, people have emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc and they, for the most part, understand and interpret them correctly. So the logical reasoning if you reject the claim by others that they have felt God would be assuming that they can correctly understand their thoughts and emotions all the time, EXCEPT for when it comes to God. Again, I'm not saying that theyre all right or even if some of them are, but the point is that it is neither unreasonable nor illogical to conclude that some of them may be correct.

Originally Posted by blackxme

Originally Posted by Theta

Originally Posted by blackxme

Originally Posted by Theta

Originally Posted by blackxme

Well first I'd like to ask what compels you to believe in a diety? You stated that you've looked at all the arguments and counter arguments but
what specifically brought to the point where you said I'm going to be a Christian?

And kudos to you for making this thread.

Alright so two things compel me to believe in a deity: causation and creation. First, I operate on the premise that every action has to have a cause. From this we start going back in history and time. We go back hundreds, thousands, millions of years retracing evolution (which I believe in.. lol) and we get to the creation. The scientific explanation is the big bang theory - the notion that the universe was a hot dense mass that expanded (and continute to expand). I was unsatisfied with this based on the simple question of "Where did this dense mass or atom or w/e come from?" Answer: "Well it was just there...". Ok, well based on the premise of causation that im operating on, this doesnt fly. The creationist explanation of a divine being (who, by nature, doesnt need a cause and exists on its own accord) seemed just as, if not more plausable. In fact, accepting the big bang theory as the sole explanation of the universe's origin requires just as much faith as the creationist argument. The leap of faith here would lie with the fact that you assume this mysterious ball of mass just exists and always had existed and no further questioning. Logically, when deciding between these two aspects, I moved towards the existence of a deity since it addressed the causal issue (since, it needs no cause) and the origin issue (in my opinion, equal to or better than the big bang theory).

On a sidenote, I, in no way, reject the big bang theory. I believe that they actually compliment each other. That the "Let there be light" could have easily been the big bang itself.

First off you say you believe in the big bang, ok, and you also believe in evolution, fine. But these two very ideas go completely against what is said within the bible. I mean according to the bible the Earth isn't billions of years old. And we certainly aren't descendants of apes, so being the rational person that you are, you can see why it's hard for a logical person to believe things within the bible.

And it's funny that you say that we as atheists assume that this hot dense point has always existed when in fact we don't.  Physicists certainly don't believe that, in fact they've never said such a thing. There is undeniable proof that long ago a huge expansion happened giving birth to our universe, but even I know that we don't have the whole story when it comes to the big bang. We know that it happened but we don't know why or what was before the big bang. It is a very tough question to answer I'll admit but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that we may one day know what exactly caused the big bang. Physicists are working hard at answering this very same question, and I commend them for trying because it isn't an easy task.

But as someone who believes in God, you believe that this being has always exists. If there is a God he must be extremely complex, but how can such a complex being come out of nowhere? Does not seem plausible to you?

I've used this quote once  on NT and I'll use it again because the great Richard Dawkins puts it better than I could.

[Quote removed to save space]

Alright then, first off, I apologize if I misrepresented the standard physist's understanding of the big bang theory - It was by no means intentional. The Dawkins quote you brought up is very good, very interesting - especially the first half of it. It does have its drawbacks, however. Basically the major tenet of the passage is that due to God's inconceivably complex nature, its more plausible that something simpler (ie matter) existed on its own accord rather than he.

if the alternative to thatis a divine intelligence, a creator which would have to have been complicated,statistically improbable

What Darwinism does is toraise our consciousness to the power of science to explain the existence ofcomplex things and intelligences, and creative intelligences are above allcomplex things, they’re statistically improbable.
Unfortunately anybody that has formally studied any type of applied statistics will tell you that we cant conclude if its statistically improbable. We have no basis to say if theres a .000000001% chance or a 99.9% chance that God exists. There is no sample, there is no historical evidence we can use, and statistics just cant be applied to establish the likelihood that God exists. This takes away much of the passage that you cited given that Dawkins is trying to establish which has a higher probability of being the case - big bang or divine creation. Many people claim that they have experienced God themselves (either through prayer or something comparable), and to them, the odds are 100% that God exists. Unfortunately, from a scientific perspective this is indemonstrable and doesnt fall close to the accepted guidelines of the scientific method. But hold on, this alone isnt enough to discredit the point. I mean, if I tell you that I'm happy and you say prove it, what can I do? Nothing, there is no way of scientifically validating this point and the same applies to everyone thats claiming that they have felt God's presence or w/e.

Now going back to what you said initially about things like evolution and the big bang being incompatible with religion, let me explain the position. Basically the view is as follows: God exists, God says let there be light and the universe comes to be (circa 14 billion years ago) - this IS the big bang, Once the earth is created (circa 4.5 billion years ago), God creates life and animals. The variation here is that I dont take the fist few lines of the book of genesis literally. I don't think all that happened in 7 days (especially since a day is measured in revolutions around a planet's axis and, well, there were no planets as of then...). After life was created, evolution occurs and life progresses a la Darwin. This isnt a ridiculously different interpretation of Genesis and its a really, really common debate amongst the Christian community whether it should be taken literally or symbolically. I know Bishop Berkeley calculated that the world started at like 4000 BC or something like that and, well, when we find something thats from BEFORE 4000 BC, it means that somebody was wrong and the dates in the Bible dont line up right.




Again, both ideas are hard to accept, but I feel that it certainly seems more plausible to accept several ideas that physicists propose than believing in a higher being( but this is my opinion of course), I'm sure you can appreciate what great dilemma there is with believing in either or.

And now addressing the statistical point you brought up( a great point) I'm not a mathematician, so I can't outline some formula to measure this. But when we try to imagine a being that knows all, sees all, etc. That idea is still quite hard to wrap your brain around. To imagine such a thing, takes a huge leap of faith, one which I'm not willing to take. But then again that’s why you believe and I don’t. I certainly can't think of one complex thing that simply comes about. Complex things demand an explanation and God isn't immune to such an explanation. As Dawkins stated complex things come about as a product of evolution or some other gradual escalation. So despite your great rebuttal of improbability, I still can't grasp how such a complex thing just springs into existence or always existed. For even the universe isn't even infinite( according to the big bang which you believe in), so I assume God must be outside of our own universe, and the universe is all we know, and there is nothing outside of it, well according to current physics.

And I completely understand your stance. You’re bringing the two together (science and the bible) in a harmonious way. Yet, you yourself say that you don’t take the book of genesis literally, any rational person can see that the earth and universe are far older than they are said to be in the bible, but yet why is there no mention of the big bang, hot dense point, expansion, etc. Is this not the actual word of God? And yet the word of God within the bible seems to be extremely inaccurate. Also when God says let there be light, can’t we infer that to be the Sun and not actually the big bang? According to the bible he created everything at once; it took some time for the universe to cool down and allow stars to form, etc.

Maybe I should have asked how literally you take the Bible, and whether or not you actually deem it to be the word of God transcribed by men.

The contradictions within the bible, and what science has provided us make it the bible quite difficult to follow wouldn’t you say? But yet you believe in evolution and the big bang and both of these things in your mind have been guided by God. Yet there is no mention of either within it. And this is why religious folk get extremely mad when either is brought to their attention and they deem these theories (well facts) as absolute crap, so they must take their holy scriptures way too literally.

So again how much of the bible do you take literally and why is it that there is no mention of the big bang or evolution? This is my main concern.

I appreciate what you’re doing here, it’s not easy to take on all these questions, but this makes for a great debate.
Of course, either idea is tremendously hard to accept. I do realize that I take less of it literally than many others - exact amounts, im not sure. Probably like 80-90 percent literally, but the remaining 10% contains a lot of important stuff so its not really a good gauge. I have no real reason why in the phrase "Let there be light" it doesnt go onto explain how this process happened exactly. I guess my explanation would be that there is a line as to how much detail is incorporated into the Bible. With regards to Let there be Light referring to the Sun vs the creation, I guess the most we could walk away from it interpreting is that light was created. Light does exist outside of the Sun and exists throughout space so it is conceivable without stretching things too far that it was referring to space and the universe and not just the physical Sun. Sorry i couldnt give a better answer, but unfortunately, yours was the last I chose to respond to and Im like mentally exhausted from all of this lol.

 

[knowledgethefoundation]

Why has religion divided people?

 

[its that dude]

So God wasn't all-good before he created the universe right? God was just all-whatever.

God then creates evil. Then God tells people to stay away from this evil and worship God only. God sounds like a narcissistic douche to me.

You basically said evil is needed for religion to work. Did I get that right? And do you think God is an all-good God even though he lets evil things happen? You went into what's "good" and what's "evil", but didn't answer my question.

Ok, this question is usually posed as: If God can do anything, can He make a rock so big that he himself cant move it? It may seem like a good point initially, but from a symbolic logic perspective, it is dismissed as an "invalid question". It is not conceivable to be able to do anything and prevent yourself from doing something. A paradox is created and the question itself cannot be answered.

A simpler example of an "invalid question" is something like this: Picture somebody holding up a silver tablespoon. As this person holds it up, he asks: What color are the prongs on this spoon?. It can be quickly seen that a spoon does not have prongs (as in prongs on a fork), so its impossible to answer the question - what color are the prongs. There are no prongs. Likewise, the question above is dismissed as an invalid question given the paradoxical nature of the question itself. It has value neither to the atheist nor to the theist.


How is this an invalid question? You Christians like to assert the fact that God is all-powerful. It's only an invalid question if the basis isn't logical (God is all-powerful and can do anything). Your spoon analogy sucks. Of course there are no prongs on the spoon.

God is all-powerful. Burritos are real. Heat is real. Can God make a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat it? The question is completely valid. It's not my fault your belief doesn't let you answer the question logically.

 

[theta]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

So God wasn't all-good before he created the universe right? God was just all-whatever.

God then creates evil. Then God tells people to stay away from this evil and worship God only. God sounds like a narcissistic douche to me.

You basically said evil is needed for religion to work. Did I get that right? And do you think God is an all-good God even though he lets evil things happen? You went into what's "good" and what's "evil", but didn't answer my question.

Ok, this question is usually posed as: If God can do anything, can He make a rock so big that he himself cant move it? It may seem like a good point initially, but from a symbolic logic perspective, it is dismissed as an "invalid question". It is not conceivable to be able to do anything and prevent yourself from doing something. A paradox is created and the question itself cannot be answered.

A simpler example of an "invalid question" is something like this: Picture somebody holding up a silver tablespoon. As this person holds it up, he asks: What color are the prongs on this spoon?. It can be quickly seen that a spoon does not have prongs (as in prongs on a fork), so its impossible to answer the question - what color are the prongs. There are no prongs. Likewise, the question above is dismissed as an invalid question given the paradoxical nature of the question itself. It has value neither to the atheist nor to the theist.

How is this an invalid question? You Christians like to assert the fact that God is all-powerful. It's only an invalid question if the basis isn't logical (God is all-powerful and can do anything). Your spoon analogy sucks. Of course there are no prongs on the spoon.

God is all-powerful. Burritos are real. Heat is real. Can God make a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat it? The question is completely valid. It's not my fault your belief doesn't let you answer the question logically.
Dude youre not listening. Ok to answer the first part of your response, reread my response on the Problem of Evil. I never said evil is needed for religion to work. I said that evil is logically necessitated by good. Its an element of modal logic. If you reread the entire thing and still dont find the answer satisfactory, I'll try answering it using a different argument.

Second part: It is an invalid question. It is an invalid question because the question itself is a paradox. The prongs on a spoon example works exactly, but consider another: the square shaped circle. If God can do anything, can he make a square shaped circle? Well the question can't be answered. Because circles arent square shaped. A square shaped circle creates a paradox and the question is dismissed. Likewise, asking if somebody that is all powerful can use his power to limit his power is an invalid question. It cant be answered  because a paradox is created. Don't criticize me personally while I'm taking your question entirely seriously. If youre still interested, the question is called the 'omnipotence paradox' alternatively interpreted as the 'irresistible force paradox'. Premise (1): God can do anything is negated by Premise (2): God can do things that he cant do. You cant come to a conclusion regarding this matter. I dont think I can simplify it any further than that. Its not like I made this answer up, this is the logically correct answer. I know this because I've taken symbolic logic and once you express this in symbolic form, the question invalidates itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

^ that should help.

 

[powfo]

Definitely one the more useful/informative threads NT has had in a while. Thanks.

 

[noskey]

Originally Posted by Noskey

If you weren't Christian, would you follow any other religion?

 

[torgriffith]

 

[torgriffith]

Originally Posted by torgriffith

ya'll are too emotional about the situation to even understand God. Period. God is beyond your comprehension of human emotion and feelings. Until ya'll become objective and clearly debate the question, ya'll are gonna continue to have threads that fall off the track with all these sensational appeals. These types of arguments brought laughter to Jesus. God's will is God's will. Just because that answer is not complex enough for your intellectual egoism does not mean it is wrong. It is simply you rejecting an evident truth. Alpha and Omega is the beginning and the end, Life and Death. Creation and Destruction. If you accept this, and still get upset over God allowing innocent babies to physically die then you need some reading comprehension my dude. The main thing the Bible emphasizes is the incorruptible holy spirit that resides in these temporary temples called bodies that people believe is all to existence. Those that believe in them self like that are foolish and disregard the role in their life. That's the true hypocrisy.

Dude, I cant agree with you on this one. About 90% of the questions and criticisms in this thread have been legitimate and deserving of a proper answer. I mean, I dont know what sports Jesus played as a kid or what color his jewfro was, but some people have really solid points. In terms of the thread falling off track, I honestly think the only time it has was when you posted. For some reason that really got to people and it was like a page of people attacking you personally while you did the same. A concept like divine will deserves an explanation beyond it is what it is. Most of the people here arent foolish, theyre agnostic and want a reasonable answer - hence the creation of this thread. Its understandable that somebody wont just accept a concept like Jesus because you tell them to in the same way that you wont accept Atheism because they tell you to. And honestly, how are you gonna be so emotional and hateful in your posts while calling THEM emotional and hypocrites... You claim to be part of a relgion thats not suppossed to judge, so stop doing it man and answer the quetions logically. It might take you a while to think of the answer, but w/e its better than saying the first thing that comes to mind (ie. it is what it is).

I dont mean to be harsh and it looks like your intentions are good but you have to consider that how you go about it can ultimately determine if its effective or if youre being counterproductive. Nothing personal.

Reading comprehension is not to good on NT because too many people hop into the debates with there script to bash who says whatever they are emotional about. Apparently you are being the emotional one because you missed my words completely and you put other words in my mouth.You still not understanding what I'm saying and I didn't attack nobody. I have a debate background so I try to go point for point when structuring responses. It is merely perceived as arguing by you yet my tone remains the opposite when I speak. I fashioned my words to get my point across for those that can understand. Some will and some won't. That is just how it's going to be.  And if ya'll read what I said rather than only focus on the declaratives you would be able to see that I never said I was part of a religion.  Ya'll should understand the rules of grammar and states of being because clearly ya'll got all my tenses directed in the wrong way. And saying it is what it is is not the first thing that popped in my head like you assume. I have had to battle with contradicting faiths since I was a child. I grew up in a house where my parents practiced separate spiritual systems and I had to study and understand for myself what was going to be my truth because they did what they would do regardless.  Saying it is what it is is what I came to after over 20 years of racking my brain to understand something that is so awesome and has always existed.  You realize after a while all that other stuff is just rhetoric and propaganda. When I speak of God's will being God's will/ wheel, I'm talking about a concept. Not a will from a lawyer with everything clearly stated. When I say  wheel I am referring to the wheels of time within the clock of the clockmaker.  Have ever seen the mechanics of a watch? Have you observed the mechanics of an atom/ soular system? I can see you went on a tirade to clean up dissension in this thread, but don't go on a streak without understanding what I'm talking bout dude. We could easily be both talking about the same thing, but due to the fact that our definitions of words have been cross cultured divided your present understanding of terms that are used all the time could prevent you from seeing what I say clearly.