The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in the association.
[h3]Question: Who is the best international* NBA player ever?[/h3]
* "International" defined as a player born and primarily developed overseas. Hakeem Olajuwon, for example, would have been the runaway favorite answer to this question had he not played college ball in the U.S. before making the jump to the NBA.
BUCHER: With
Pau Gasol being the first international big man to play a prominent role in back-to-back championships, the question of who is the NBA's best all-time international player* has gained some grist. I believe
Vlade Divac,
Arvydas Sabonis and the late Drazen Petrovic are all in the conversation for various reasons -- as is Gasol, of course -- but I'm going to go with the big German in Dallas,
Dirk Nowitzki, as the one who has been the best all-around player.
BROUSSARD: Sabonis may have been the international king had he played in the NBA during his prime, but since we never got to see him at his best, it comes down to Dirk and Gasol. I'm a huge Dirk fan, but I'm more and more impressed by Pau every day. Both guys are Hall of Famers and the 1 and 1A of European ballers. But I'm going to say Pau's No. 1.
RB: If this were a debate about who is best right now, it would be a lot closer. But when I look at the scope of their two careers, it's not. Dirk isn't just the best-shooting international big man of all time, but arguably the best-shooting big man the NBA has ever seen, period. He is a four-time first team All-NBA selection and was voted one of the league's Top 15 players 10 times in all. Gasol has received that honor twice, both in the past two seasons as a third-teamer. Gasol has been a key part of two championships and has tremendous all-around skills, but clearly it's as much about who he's playing for and with as what he can do.
CB: Ultimately, I picked Pau because I think he plays more of a title-winning game than Dirk. While Dirk is certainly an all-time great, he plays like a 6-foot-8 guy. Because he's "the best shooting big of all time," he's also a far weaker offensive rebounder than I'd like for a 7-footer. And he's one of the few great 7-footers who's well under 50 percent shooting for his career (.474). I want more efficiency from my big man.
RB: You make a 7-footer with limitless range sound like a bad thing when that shot and range are why he's hit far more game-winning shots than Pau has even attempted. For all your talk about Gasol being an all-time great PF, he couldn't win a playoff game when he was his team's best player in Memphis. Three trips, zero wins. Dirk? He's won nine playoff
rounds, including a run to the Finals.
CB: Basically, Dirk is a small forward who's a good defensive rebounder. That means that to win a title with him, I still need someone else to give me a presence in the post, whether scoring from the block or defending inside. That shouldn't be the case when I've already got an all-time great power forward. And yet, even though Dirk is a great perimeter player, he's not much of a passer or ball handler, so I still need a terrific playmaker, as well.
RB: Dirk is not a ball handler? How, when he routinely beats guys off the dribble with either hand? Or has a positive A/TO ratio? Or that a pump fake and drive to the rim is part of the repertoire that makes him so lethal once he gets to the right elbow?
Dirk might've been perimeter-oriented at the start of his career, but since getting punked by the
Golden State Warriors three years ago, he made a point of honing and utilizing his post game. He routinely punishes guys on the block now. And how does a "perimeter player" average 8.5 rebounds over 13 seasons?
CB: Look, Dirk is no doubt a Hall of Famer. All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a 7-footer who's the best offensive post player in the league (Pau) than one who's the best perimeter shooting big man. Sure, Dirk shoots fewer 3s now and plays a little closer to the basket, but he's not anything close to a low-post force. And how weak to try to use Dirk's 8.5 rebound average as proof he's not a perimeter player. I mean, Magic Johnson and
LeBron James had/have career averages of seven rebounds. Does that mean they're not perimeter players?
Jason Kidd averaged eight rebounds one season, as did
Michael Jordan.
RB: You dismissed the value of Dirk's being the best big-man shooter of all time and suggested that since Pau has to rely almost exclusively on his post game -- which has never been rated as anything close to the all-time best -- he is somehow superior. However, you want to dismiss Pau's failings as a No. 1 and play up his success as a No. 2. Truth is, he's never outdone Dirk. Not when Dirk, as Dallas' No. 1, absolutely dominated Pau in sweeping the
Memphis Grizzlies out of the '06 playoffs.
CB: As for Pau, sure, he never won a playoff game in Memphis, but look at who his teammates were. Pau deserves tons of credit just for getting the Grizzlies to the playoffs three straight seasons in a stacked Western Conference. He won 50 games in 2003-04, 45 in 2004-05 and 49 in 2005-06. His second-best teammate during that streak was
Mike Miller. Not one of Pau's teammates during that stretch averaged more than 13 ppg.
Kevin Garnett had a better supporting cast in 2004-05 and a comparable one in 2005-06 and couldn't get Minnesota to the playoffs.
Meanwhile, Dirk had teammates such as
Steve Nash in All-Star form,
Michael Finley in his prime,
Nick Van Exel,
Juwan Howard,
Antawn Jamison,
Antoine Walker,
Jason Terry,
Jerry Stackhouse,
Josh Howard, Jason Kidd and
Devin Harris.
RB: Don't act like Pau was
Kobe Bryant or
Derrick Rose dragging a bunch of no-names into the playoffs. Here's what he had to work with in just one season: Miller,
Eddie Jones,
Bobby Jackson,
Damon Stoudamire and
Shane Battier to space the floor for him. And that was the season Dirk led a starting lineup of Jason Terry,
Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard and
DeSagana Diop to the Finals.
CB: By the time Gasol played with them, Jackson and Stoudemire were merely good backups and a 34-year-old Eddie Jones was a mere shell of himself. And while there's no doubt Pau has great teammates now in LA, those
Los Angeles Lakers teams, even with the great Kobe Bryant, couldn't even get out of the first round before Pau got there. Three straight years they went into the lottery (2004-05) or first round and out (2005-06, 2006-07). Then, Pau arrives and they reach the Finals three straight seasons.
RB: I'd never diminish what Pau has meant to the Lakers, but he wasn't the only reason for their uptick -- bringing
Derek Fisher back to replace
Smush Parker,
Lamar Odom raising his game, and
Andrew Bynum and
Trevor Ariza making regular-season contributions did wonders, too. You listed every decent player Dirk has played with over the span of his career as if he played with all of them, all of the time, in their prime. He didn't. In fact, he was the one constant on all of the
Dallas Mavericks playoff teams in the past decade.
CB: There's no doubt Dirk is one of the most unique players we've ever seen, an absolute matchup nightmare and one of the best scorers of this generation. But Pau is a more efficient scorer, shooting 52 percent for his career and averaging 19 points on just 13 shots per game. He's a better rebounder, especially on the offensive glass, where he's become one of the best in the game. Pau has averaged 2.7 offensive rebounds for his career and 3.5 the past three seasons, compared to Dirk's 1.2. Those extra possessions mean a lot. Dirk has never averaged more than 1.6 offensive rebounds in a season. Not a good look for an elite 7-footer. Pau is also a better passer, averaging 3.2 career assists and more than four per game twice. And Pau, though not a great defender, is better defensively than Dirk. Dirk gets 1 block per game for his career to 1.7 for Pau.
RB: Pau is a better offensive rebounder and shot-blocker because he's more athletic and, as you noted, his game keeps him around the rim more on offense. But when Pau was leading those Grizzlies teams to the playoffs -- with six other guys with double-digit scoring averages -- Dirk was ninth, third and third in MVP voting. Number of votes for Pau: zero. In fact, Pau has never received an MVP vote. Ever. When I look at Pau's pure gifts, I feel as if he should or could be the best international to ever play. But I can't ignore that no one -- I mean, no one -- has ever seen anything MVPish about Pau, and Dirk is in the conversation almost every year. Even
Manu Ginobili, who deserves at least a mention in the best international player category, has made a ballot.
And you'll notice I'm not comparing scoring averages in my argument, even though Dirk crushes Pau there, because it's a grossly misleading way to judge two players' comparative ability. Same goes for assists, rebounds and any other number -- at least not without looking at what their priorities are and how their team functions.
CB: The only reason you haven't mentioned Dirk's scoring is because you didn't want to get in a stats war, because that's the only category he bests Pau in. Not to mention the fact that Pau has been a more efficient scorer, which could diminish the scoring difference a bit. And you have used awards from the jump to buttress your argument for Dirk. Does that mean you're not watching the game?
Bottom line, if I had to start a team with any international player, I'd take Pau because I've got a low-post presence who can score on the block, pass out of double-teams and step outside to hit midrange shots. In most cases (the Michael Jordan Bulls being the lone exception), you need a great perimeter playmaker and a great post player to win titles. If I've got Pau, I've filled one of those roles. If I've got Dirk, I've filled neither.
to do a difficult dance with its overabundance of small, shoot-first guards. If they pair Bayless and
Leandro Barbosa in the same backcourt, they might as well just have the other three players stay back on defense. But this trade wasn't about the present for the Raptors. It creates another $2 million in 2011 cap space and gets them younger; those are the un-sexy baby steps that steadily propel rebuilding projects forward.
The bigger news, however, is that the Hornets seem increasingly confident that they won't be needing to rebuild any time soon. In half a year, New Orleans has very effectively rebuilt its rotation on the fly while getting under the luxury tax, and the Hornets still have assets to pour into future deals. What once looked to be a lottery team appears more like a legitimate title contender every day.
