[:: LAKERS 2014 THREAD | POLL: Who Should Coach Next Year? ::]

[sea manup]

Why does the blame get placed on kobe though? It's not like he has his team under a spell and commands them to stand still when he's holding the ball.


how about we blame the other players that are totally capable of moving without the ball but would rather just stand around and watch kobe

Responses like these just automatically make me wonder if the person making it plays basketball consistently at all. And obviously you're not the first person to say "They can move. It ain't HIS fault," but lettuce be cereal: when you're playing, and there's this dude who constantly chucks, you're not moving as much anymore. Period.

maybe I have been watching the wrong player for the past decade so if this is all a big misunderstanding let me know. But from the kobe I have seen/listened to/read about I have reason to believe that if you (lakers role player X) see kobe isoing at the top of the key and find a way to free yourself from the defender and cut to the basket chances are that kobe will find you for an easy layup. I dont know about melo and iverson but I do know a lot about kobe, he is not a chucker that ignores his teammates in order to get his 22 shots a game. This is the guy who is always talking to teammates during time outs telling them the best way to play off of him and get open looks. I have seen him pull pau aside and explain to him where to position himself after setting a pick then get the ball to him in that exact spot for an easy score. Wesley Johnson told reporters about how kobe is always in his ear talking about how to move without the ball and get open then he gets caught on video getting an open layup from a kobe pass. A few years back bynum was having a breakout game and we went into the final minute tied. Phil called a timeout and kobe told him to run a play for bynum to boost his confidence, out of the time out kobe brings the ball up, dumps it to bynum, easy two points we win the game.

but of course all that was just an act to fool people because the real kobe is a ball hog that refuses to pass and only cares about climbing the all time points list and winning scoring titles

 

[sea manup]

Thats exactly what I was gonna say ...go on the court and actually play with a person like that and see how much your gonna keep moving. Thats not very fun basketball
for anyone to play. After about 5 straight possessions of you running around, running off picks, running in the lane for rebounds, and running back and up the floor
only to realize your not gonna get the ball, you are gonna stop moving.

Its no point and a waste of energy. Might as well save your energy to play some D. Anyone who has played ball consistently knows what that leads to. No bueno

BUT this is the Kobe we have seen for 17 years now, so no point in even discussing this. That horse has been beaten and stoned to death 10 years ago.

It Tis' what it Tis'

i have both played with and been the guy "ballhogging" for me at least as long as the results are there, im happy. Same way i feel about this topic, it doesnt matter what kind of player leads the team, it could be Kobe/MJ shooting 30 times or it could be Nash/Magic dishing out 15 assists. At the end of the day a W is a W

I have always said and ill say it again, a "pure pg" is the most overrated thing in basketball. Year after year we read about how superstar PG X is playing basketball the right way and getting all his teammates involved, OMG look at stockton look at nash look at kidd look at chris paul LOOK HOW MUCH FUN THEIR TEAMS ARE HAVING!! Then come the playoffs, want to know how many titles elite "pure PG"s have won in the past 20 years?

0

Meanwhile ball hog kobe has 5(2), ball hog jordan has 6, ball hog wade has 3(1), ball hog hakeem has 2, ball hog shaq has 4(3)

Its so much fun to play with steve nash and no one wants to play with kobe, but for some reason steve nash came over here to play with kobe in hopes of getting a ring.

If you dont have fun playing with kobe the dwight sized exit is over there, if you do enjoy playing with kobe you end up like lamar and pau who both have rings to show for it.

 

[sea manup]

oh and i have talked about this in the NBA thread, i HATE watching kevin durant play. Dude is the most passive talented scorer I have ever seen, spends way too much time passing to his scrub teammates so they can brick shots and miss layups when he can easily take over a game. 

 

[grandtheftbike]

ska believes fga = # of assists tho

Thats exactly what I was gonna say ...go on the court and actually play with a person like that and see how much your gonna keep moving. Thats not very fun basketball
for anyone to play. After about 5 straight possessions of you running around, running off picks, running in the lane for rebounds, and running back and up the floor
only to realize your not gonna get the ball, you are gonna stop moving.

Its no point and a waste of energy. Might as well save your energy to play some D. Anyone who has played ball consistently knows what that leads to. No bueno

BUT this is the Kobe we have seen for 17 years now, so no point in even discussing this. That horse has been beaten and stoned to death 10 years ago.

It Tis' what it Tis'

play with a person like that? what does this even mean?

what im reading here, is to play with a guy that chucks a shot whenever he gets the ball. this is not the case with kobe

 

[grandtheftbike]

ska believes fga = # of assists tho

Thats exactly what I was gonna say ...go on the court and actually play with a person like that and see how much your gonna keep moving. Thats not very fun basketball
for anyone to play. After about 5 straight possessions of you running around, running off picks, running in the lane for rebounds, and running back and up the floor
only to realize your not gonna get the ball, you are gonna stop moving.

Its no point and a waste of energy. Might as well save your energy to play some D. Anyone who has played ball consistently knows what that leads to. No bueno

BUT this is the Kobe we have seen for 17 years now, so no point in even discussing this. That horse has been beaten and stoned to death 10 years ago.

It Tis' what it Tis'

play with a person like that? what does this even mean?

what im reading here, is to play with a guy that chucks a shot whenever he gets the ball. this is not the case with kobe

oh and i have talked about this in the NBA thread, i HATE watching kevin durant play. Dude is the most passive talented scorer I have ever seen, spends way too much time passing to his scrub teammates so they can brick shots and miss layups when he can easily take over a game. 

not everyone can be steve blake

 

[darthska]

Players/Teams are about strengths.

You have Magic, you build weapons around his strength, passing.

You have Shaq, you build shooters around him, give him space.

Kobe takes care of the offense, you get him bigs for rebounds, and versatile Lamar Odom types.

I like how you just slipped that in there, "Kobe takes care of the offense." That's the single most annoying thing about Kobe fans, this notion that he IS the offense. "Alright guys, we've got the Warriors tonight, so we're probably going to need to put up at least 110. Kobe's here, and he takes care of the offense, so that's like 90 right there."

I know you didn't say that (not explicitly, anyways), but... "Kobe takes care of the offense."

Man, what? 

Steve Nash, elite PG (per you) Give him Shaq, one of the ten best players in history, and they couldn't work together AT ALL. Clog each others space.

Nash plays better with CHANNING FRYE, than he does Shaq. But you think it's just "everyone pass the ball around"

Ummmm... you're not... seriously... using the Shaq that was running on fumes... are you?

C'mon, son. You're better than that.

Ignore the Penny Shaq. Ignore the Kobe Shaq. Use the Nash Shaq.

The Lebron Shaq and Pierce Shaq feel left out. 

"He didn't play well at the end of his career w/ an elite PG, so this passing foolishness is exactly that: foolishness."

Man, what? 

You have LeBron, you don't surround him with a bunch of non shooters, it would clog the lane and limit his effectiveness. Get him Battier, Chalmers, James Jones and Bosh, and suddenly he can't be stopped.

Straight up, bro, if you can look me straight in the face and tell me you don't see REMARKABLE ball movement on the Heat right now, we will FIGHT. 

And even the Cavs, the ball movement was there. They were just terrible players. 

 You can have good ball movement and bad players, but even that will be more successful than good players and poor ball movement.

The Heat right now, they have good players AND ball movement, hence back2back2back Finals, sealing the deal for the last two.

And yes, I have every reason to believe it's because of Lebron's style on the floor. The coaching staff implements ways for the entire team to be a part of what he does, they execute it, and raise trophies in June.

You remember the Kwame era I imagine. Kobe drives the lane, 3 guys come at him, dumps off a PERFECT pass to Kwame...........fumbles it out of bounds.
Try again, PERFECT pass, Kwame misses a dunk.

How many times did we see that in 2 years? How many Ska? I know you remember those, cuz I sure as hell do.

How many passes to a wide open Smush, to brick a 3? Or Luke Walton? Etc.


You can pass for days, but if they don't make the shot, then what?

Then you have an 81-pt game. 

 You go bonkers and have a stretch of like 9 straight 40+ games. You get 60+ after 3 quarters and outscore the opponent by yourself.

That's what.

No but seriously, this team has a lot more heart than that team. And I haven't even seen him play yet. I'm just talking about the style of play he normally brings, a style that was completely different than that stretch in like June last year, Mamba Johnson. He might play like that this year. *crosses fingers* 

Shaq. If you're getting 28 boards and 15 blocks on top of 20= pts, you're good with passing, at least in my book

I see. So, Kobe for an entire 15 year stretch is about 28, 5.5 and 5. Also played elite defense for 10 of those years. 80 games per year. (How many Shaq play a year again?)

But those 5 assists, are not enough in your book to warrant a "pass" from you. But Shaq, he gets a pass, cuz that one time he got 15 blocks.

The lazy guy, that took months off, got 10-11 rebounds when he truly, absolutely should have been getting 15-16 since he was clearly bigger than everyone, but hey, why mention those things, right?

And Shaq was an elite defender, how many years of his career? He wasn't exactly Mutumbo out there man.

Man, I said 'dominate'. 

Again, tell me with a straightface that Shaq never dominated the league. It never happened. Sell me that, please.

Now tell me with a straight face that there was a time when Kobe had the league's nuts in his hand, squeezing them joints till the league passed out. Tell me that happened. Ok, the stretch when he went bananas for a couple months. I want YEARS, bruh.

I know you've heard this argument from the likes of FR3SH and Xtralebronstan, but you have to seriously twist stats around and have a slight delusion to seriously think Kobe had the entire league like "Damn, why even play?"

But yeah, Kobe = Melo/Iverson. Same guy.

Sure.

That statement is false.

I forgot Tmac.

 

[sea manup]

i kind of think this is puppet master ska trying to unite all lakers fans under a single cause 

 

[darthska]

ska believes fga = # of assists tho

I'll cut you. 

 I never said that!

Thats exactly what I was gonna say ...go on the court and actually play with a person like that and see how much your gonna keep moving. Thats not very fun basketball
for anyone to play. After about 5 straight possessions of you running around, running off picks, running in the lane for rebounds, and running back and up the floor
only to realize your not gonna get the ball, you are gonna stop moving.

Its no point and a waste of energy. Might as well save your energy to play some D. Anyone who has played ball consistently knows what that leads to. No bueno

BUT this is the Kobe we have seen for 17 years now, so no point in even discussing this. That horse has been beaten and stoned to death 10 years ago.

It Tis' what it Tis'

play with a person like that? what does this even mean?

what im reading here, is to play with a guy that chucks a shot whenever he gets the ball. this is not the case with kobe

Then you tell me, why was everyone standing around in practice?

And why do people stand around with 'players like that'?

I could be wrong, so introduce another logical possibility.

My contention is that teammates of 'players like that' know the odds are real low their work will consistently result in touches, so they loaf.

You think I'm wrong? Cool. And your contention would be...?

 

[sea manup]

like... we have footage of one and a half play during kobe's first practice back with the highlight of the day being kobe passing to a cutting wes johnson for an open layup

but lets keep saying "why was everyone standing around practice" like they were standing still for 2 hours

 

[CHAOSE57]

Don't worry guys, if Kobe hogs the ball, there's Steve Blake to remind him who's team this is now.

 

[darthska]

Shout out to ska for providing us with an engaging new discussion topic.

i kind of think this is puppet master ska trying to unite all lakers fans under a single cause 

I'll be the bad guy to get y'all to stop going at each others' necks. Got no problem with that at all. Been doing it for years. Literally. Not one person has ever made mention of the fact that like 99% of the time I blast Kobe in here, it's when a civil war is brewing. 

 

 

[trynafeelmink]

I would just like to mention that Kobe is currently sitting at #28 on the all time assist list.... i kind of find it hard to say someone doesn't pass the ball yet he's literally has more assisted baskets than 90% of the players in history.

 

[grandtheftbike]

Then you tell me, why was everyone standing around in practice?


And why do people stand around with 'players like that'?


I could be wrong, so introduce another logical possibility.

My contention is that teammates of 'players like that' know the odds are real low their work will consistently result in touches, so they loaf.

You think I'm wrong? Cool. And your contention would be...?

if you are solely basing this off the practice video, we were only able to see a 2 minute clip. players stand around all the time. there are isos every game ska, i am 102% sure you know this

but i can see your point. kobe himself said he sometimes needs to be reminded that he needs to pass more because the hoop is all he sees

 

[CP1708]

I forgot Tmac.

Legit had me laughing out loud at work. Well done.

 

[sea manup]

 

Shout out to ska for providing us with an engaging new discussion topic.

i kind of think this is puppet master ska trying to unite all lakers fans under a single cause 

I'll be the bad guy to get y'all to stop going at each others' necks. Got no problem with that at all. Been doing it for years. Literally. Not one person has ever made mention of the fact that like 99% of the time I blast Kobe in here, it's when a civil war is brewing. 

 

4. "Trolling", or making posts with the sole intention of creating problems on the board is against NT guidelines.

 

[licensed to ball]

 

[darthska]

'sole intention of creating problems'

'creating problems' =/= 'unifying a polarized mob'

And it's not even my 'sole intention'. I don't like Kobe's style, and I'm discussing it.

 

[CP1708]

Players/Teams are about strengths.


You have Magic, you build weapons around his strength, passing.


You have Shaq, you build shooters around him, give him space.


Kobe takes care of the offense, you get him bigs for rebounds, and versatile Lamar Odom types.

I like how you just slipped that in there, "Kobe takes care of the offense." That's the single most annoying thing about Kobe fans, this notion that he IS the offense. "Alright guys, we've got the Warriors tonight, so we're probably going to need to put up at least 110. Kobe's here, and he takes care of the offense, so that's like 90 right there."


I know you didn't say that (not explicitly, anyways), but... "Kobe takes care of the offense."

Man, what? 

Steve Nash, elite PG (per you) Give him Shaq, one of the ten best players in history, and they couldn't work together AT ALL. Clog each others space.


Nash plays better with CHANNING FRYE, than he does Shaq. But you think it's just "everyone pass the ball around"

Ummmm... you're not... seriously... using the Shaq that was running on fumes... are you?


C'mon, son. You're better than that.

Ignore the Penny Shaq. Ignore the Kobe Shaq. Use the Nash Shaq.

The Lebron Shaq and Pierce Shaq feel left out. 


"He didn't play well at the end of his career w/ an elite PG, so this passing foolishness is exactly that: foolishness."

Man, what? 

You have LeBron, you don't surround him with a bunch of non shooters, it would clog the lane and limit his effectiveness. Get him Battier, Chalmers, James Jones and Bosh, and suddenly he can't be stopped.

Straight up, bro, if you can look me straight in the face and tell me you don't see REMARKABLE ball movement on the Heat right now, we will FIGHT. 

And even the Cavs, the ball movement was there. They were just terrible players.   You can have good ball movement and bad players, but even that will be more successful than good players and poor ball movement.

The Heat right now, they have good players AND ball movement, hence back2back2back Finals, sealing the deal for the last two.

And yes, I have every reason to believe it's because of Lebron's style on the floor. The coaching staff implements ways for the entire team to be a part of what he does, they execute it, and raise trophies in June.

You remember the Kwame era I imagine. Kobe drives the lane, 3 guys come at him, dumps off a PERFECT pass to Kwame...........fumbles it out of bounds.

Try again, PERFECT pass, Kwame misses a dunk.


How many times did we see that in 2 years? How many Ska? I know you remember those, cuz I sure as hell do.


How many passes to a wide open Smush, to brick a 3? Or Luke Walton? Etc.



You can pass for days, but if they don't make the shot, then what?

Then you have an 81-pt game.   You go bonkers and have a stretch of like 9 straight 40+ games. You get 60+ after 3 quarters and outscore the opponent by yourself.


That's what.

No but seriously, this team has a lot more heart than that team. And I haven't even seen him play yet. I'm just talking about the style of play he normally brings, a style that was completely different than that stretch in like June last year, Mamba Johnson. He might play like that this year. *crosses fingers* 

Shaq. If you're getting 28 boards and 15 blocks on top of 20= pts, you're good with passing, at least in my book

I see. So, Kobe for an entire 15 year stretch is about 28, 5.5 and 5. Also played elite defense for 10 of those years. 80 games per year. (How many Shaq play a year again?)


But those 5 assists, are not enough in your book to warrant a "pass" from you. But Shaq, he gets a pass, cuz that one time he got 15 blocks. The lazy guy, that took months off, got 10-11 rebounds when he truly, absolutely should have been getting 15-16 since he was clearly bigger than everyone, but hey, why mention those things, right?


And Shaq was an elite defender, how many years of his career? He wasn't exactly Mutumbo out there man.

Man, I said 'dominate'. 

Again, tell me with a straightface that Shaq never dominated the league. It never happened. Sell me that, please.


Now tell me with a straight face that there was a time when Kobe had the league's nuts in his hand, squeezing them joints till the league passed out. Tell me that happened. Ok, the stretch when he went bananas for a couple months. I want YEARS, bruh.

I know you've heard this argument from the likes of FR3SH and Xtralebronstan, but you have to seriously twist stats around and have a slight delusion to seriously think Kobe had the entire league like "Damn, why even play?"

But yeah, Kobe = Melo/Iverson. Same guy.


Sure.

That statement is false.

I forgot Tmac.

Heat absolutely have great ball movement. Tell me again, who they surround Bron with? Ray Allen, Battier, James Jones, Chalmers and somewhere in there Bosh? (I don't even have to mention Wade) They have spacing on spacing on spacing on spacing. Cuz that whole damn crew can shoot.
Kobe has had that shooting group on his squad in his lifetime?

Thing is, I'm not saying that Kobe is a better passer than LeBron, Bron is a great passer, no doubt about it. But you did see the most shooting help he had last year was Meeks and Nash off the ball, and he could space off them better. If we could have had 2010 Pau instead of Dwight, then you would have seen a much better shooting lineup for Kobe to operate.


The Kobe takes care of offense, that's his strength, that's what the Lakers built around man. During the 3 title days, it was a 2 man show. Shaq/Kobe. The other 10 guys were role guys. Even the year Rice was here, it was his worst year of his career. He got his title in 2000 and dipped. The roster was set to 2 elite guys, the rest do other things.
OKC today, Durant, Russ, 10 other guys.

It's how you build a roster.

If you have a roster with Stockton and Malone, you get some shooters, and a big man to help battle for Karl down low.

You have Blake G, you get CP3, now what do you need? Shooters everywhere. (preferably shooters that can defend)


Obviously one guy doesn't do EVERY detail. Bulls score 100 a night, MJ only gets 30, so what, he sucks? Bottom line, not a lot of guys in the league, ever, you can just plug in for 30 every, single, night. They are hard to find.


And after how many missed Kwame dunks would you start lookin for 81? Be real. I remember those days, I remember one Ska comment where you had grown tired of the crap we had out there and you said you know what Kobe, go for it tonight. Drop 50-60 on these dudes, we have no chance without that type of game. When even you are giving him the green light, that tells you the roster he was workin with at the time.


Phil told him that one time he had the 13 straight 35's to carry the offense while Shaq worked himself into shape. Kobe obliged, went on a binge, and when Shaq was back in game shape, Phil said throttle down and he did.

The smartest coach in the history of the league didn't have a problem with Kobe's style, the year he did leave was when Kobe was dealin with a case, a Shaq, Free Agency, breaking apart Karl, GP, Fish, etc. A year later he was right back for another 6 years with Kobe. Pop adores Kobe. Coach K. Jerry West. Guys that teach fundamental ball, they all love Kobe. I suspect they don't lump Iverson, Tmac, and Melo in with him.


If Phil, Pop, Jerry, and K back a guy, I mean........

 

[had pants]

Yeah, it's interesting when you hear the infamous phrase "Kobe doesn't pass" but evidently that's not the case. I think people buy into that because of his distinctive ability to create plays and dictate the flow of the game singlehandedly, not the other way around. And ultimately at the end of the day, his accolades speak for themselves.

 

[menacin methods]

Kobe is 86 assist away from being #30 all time in assist

 

[sea manup]

Kobe is 86 assist away from being #30 all time in assist

 

[CP1708]

Kobe is close to being the founding member of the 31,000/6,000/6,000 club.

As in, only player, ever.

It's in play, but I think he'll come up short, he's somewhere in 3,4000-7,000-6,500 range. That's where he ballpark ends up, provided his ankle isn't dead forever.


In about 7-8 years, Bron will join him on his way to 33K, 7,500-7,500 territory.

 

[had pants]

 

[darthska]

 

I forgot Tmac.

Legit had me laughing out loud at work. Well done.

Was hoping you didn't take that too serious, since I was mostly joking.

Mostly. 

 

[CP1708]

TMac jokes have zero impact on me.

Game 4 2000 is all I ever need to quiet anything Tracy, ever.

Ever.

Don't care who trades what, plays with who, if this or that, nothing. That one single OT was more than Tracy mustered in his entire overrated career. Kid had two nice seasons, and a couple decent ones.
He and his cousin have the same kool aid pumpin thru their meek hearts. Athletic and skilled as all hell, but absolutely worthless when it matters most.