Jordan his Airness, says he can score 100 points in NBA today.

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl



Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by blasdiaz

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by cguy610

If you think Kobe is the best scorer ever, you are a Kobe fanboy. 

  

No.. just an observer...

The moves I've seen Kobe pull off are ridiculous. When I say the best scorer ever, I'm not talking about "scored the most". I'm talking about his ability and the variations in which he can get that ball into the rim.  Clearly Kobe is one of the most practiced and studied players to ever step out there. Why do ya'll keep fronting like I'm making this +!** up? Name 3 players with offensive capabilities on par with Kobe. I'll give you one, Jordan. I'll even give you a sleeper pick.. Mello..  now give me one more. I'm talking deep ball, mid range, post up, lay-up, dunk, up and under, buzzer beater, and everything in between. Go ahead. Who's REALLY doing it like Bean?

paul pierce? just throwin one out there.

Not even close... and that's my point... for as many moves as Paul has,  he doesn't have as many as Mello because he's not as quick or strong as Mello. He can't pull them off AS easily, and so he doesn't. Mello doesn't have the attack mode Mike had, though his low post game and iso game is SERIOUS. Lebron has the attack mode, but that's all Lebron has for the most part. Kobe has it all offensively. His only knock is that he actually knows this and so he takes bad shots that he probably shouldn't shoot even though he probably could hit them (like JR. Smith

). Jordan never took those gambles. Jordan was gonna beat you down with the same unstoppable post up every play unless you made him switch it up. Kobe switches up the attack just cuz he's bored I think....cuz there's no reason for him to do half the things he does.

Examples include:

-The behind the back -to-360 dunk they just recently added to 2k 11.. there was literally NO reason to clown dude like that. HE just did it because no one had done it.
-81 points... WHY? For what?

-That reverse pivot 3 pointer against the Suns.. sure, he coulda ate some clock and shot a reasonable shot, but he just decided to dummy out for no reason.
-12 threes.. there's damn near no reason to shoot that many threes if you're not Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. Imagine how many misses that COULD have been.

etc etc etc..

Kobe's my fav. athlete and all, but half the stuff I enjoyed watching him do was just frivolous offensive wizardry for no reason

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by blasdiaz

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by cguy610

If you think Kobe is the best scorer ever, you are a Kobe fanboy. 

  

No.. just an observer...

The moves I've seen Kobe pull off are ridiculous. When I say the best scorer ever, I'm not talking about "scored the most". I'm talking about his ability and the variations in which he can get that ball into the rim.  Clearly Kobe is one of the most practiced and studied players to ever step out there. Why do ya'll keep fronting like I'm making this +!** up? Name 3 players with offensive capabilities on par with Kobe. I'll give you one, Jordan. I'll even give you a sleeper pick.. Mello..  now give me one more. I'm talking deep ball, mid range, post up, lay-up, dunk, up and under, buzzer beater, and everything in between. Go ahead. Who's REALLY doing it like Bean?

paul pierce? just throwin one out there.

Not even close... and that's my point... for as many moves as Paul has,  he doesn't have as many as Mello because he's not as quick or strong as Mello. He can't pull them off AS easily, and so he doesn't. Mello doesn't have the attack mode Mike had, though his low post game and iso game is SERIOUS. Lebron has the attack mode, but that's all Lebron has for the most part. Kobe has it all offensively. His only knock is that he actually knows this and so he takes bad shots that he probably shouldn't shoot even though he probably could hit them (like JR. Smith

). Jordan never took those gambles. Jordan was gonna beat you down with the same unstoppable post up every play unless you made him switch it up. Kobe switches up the attack just cuz he's bored I think....cuz there's no reason for him to do half the things he does.

Examples include:

-The behind the back -to-360 dunk they just recently added to 2k 11.. there was literally NO reason to clown dude like that. HE just did it because no one had done it.
-81 points... WHY? For what?

-That reverse pivot 3 pointer against the Suns.. sure, he coulda ate some clock and shot a reasonable shot, but he just decided to dummy out for no reason.
-12 threes.. there's damn near no reason to shoot that many threes if you're not Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. Imagine how many misses that COULD have been.

etc etc etc..

Kobe's my fav. athlete and all, but half the stuff I enjoyed watching him do was just frivolous offensive wizardry for no reason

 

[hella handsome]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

Wilt is top 2 all time?

Dude could not win to save his life. Most dominant player EVER and he could not win for YEARS. Dude was traded at the PEAK of his career. Can you believe that? Traded!!! What kind of teammate/person was this guy? 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

 

Bill Russell is a different story. This is how I describe it: Bill Russell, greatest teammate of all time; Jordan, greatest player of all time. Russell did everything but dominate offensively. Career 44% for an athletic freak(for his time); that athleticism translated seamlessly to defense.Team, team, and team is all you hear when one brings up Russell.

Bill could and would sacrifice and be the best team player. Mike could and would dominate the game by himself and was the best player. It's different. Top 2 right there.

Another way of looking at it:
If you started a team from scratch, who would you take? Jordan.
If you needed to complete a team, and either SG or C were the final position, who would you take? Russell. He can fit any team, any time.

Yeah, but my point was that Wilt and Bill are in the hall of fame for being two of the greatest players of all time for their achievements. I said Wilt was the greatest for his achievement because NOBODY else has scored 100 points. 
This comparison was Kobe's 81 vs Wilts 100 and Jordans 6 rings vs Russell's 11 rings. 

wait, what?  How are people who came into the league in the 1990s (Kobe, Shuttlesworth, KG, Shaq, AI, Duncan) on this team?

If thats the case, The Dream Team isn't in this argument... Because Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Bird, Magic, etc etc. Were all drafted in the 80s (Bird and Magic in the late 70's)... 

 

[hella handsome]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

Wilt is top 2 all time?

Dude could not win to save his life. Most dominant player EVER and he could not win for YEARS. Dude was traded at the PEAK of his career. Can you believe that? Traded!!! What kind of teammate/person was this guy? 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

 

Bill Russell is a different story. This is how I describe it: Bill Russell, greatest teammate of all time; Jordan, greatest player of all time. Russell did everything but dominate offensively. Career 44% for an athletic freak(for his time); that athleticism translated seamlessly to defense.Team, team, and team is all you hear when one brings up Russell.

Bill could and would sacrifice and be the best team player. Mike could and would dominate the game by himself and was the best player. It's different. Top 2 right there.

Another way of looking at it:
If you started a team from scratch, who would you take? Jordan.
If you needed to complete a team, and either SG or C were the final position, who would you take? Russell. He can fit any team, any time.

Yeah, but my point was that Wilt and Bill are in the hall of fame for being two of the greatest players of all time for their achievements. I said Wilt was the greatest for his achievement because NOBODY else has scored 100 points. 
This comparison was Kobe's 81 vs Wilts 100 and Jordans 6 rings vs Russell's 11 rings. 

wait, what?  How are people who came into the league in the 1990s (Kobe, Shuttlesworth, KG, Shaq, AI, Duncan) on this team?

If thats the case, The Dream Team isn't in this argument... Because Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Bird, Magic, etc etc. Were all drafted in the 80s (Bird and Magic in the late 70's)... 

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl



Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl



Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

 

[do be doo]

Originally Posted by Murda He

AI - Is he a better player than Payton/Kidd? Probably not all around..no way.. But is he more effective? Without a doubt. The AI that went to the Finals would KILL those PGs you listed. KILLLLLLLLLLLL...........Sorry. Payton couldn't guard A.I. with a pistol and a bullet proof vest. Who could? Kidd ain't getting those 7-9 boards either. That about ends the argument for who's talents would be better suited for this matchup. 25 and 6 from AI beats Kidds  12, 9, 5 on this night... maybe not in general, but in this game.

Kobe - Push. As good as Jordan is, on teams this stacked, I'm not sure either SG's edge would be THAT huge. Neither player would HAVE to ball dominate or chuck shots. Neither player would IMO. This would just be a real good slobber knocker between the two of them. I'd give the edge to Kobe for one reason :range. All that in the lane #*** is dead either way for BOTH teams. In this one, Jordan shoots a higher FG% but Kobe scores more. Neither man does a particularly good job at "stopping" the other.

Lebron - He's the best to ever play SF... period. And I damn near don't like him. I'm just being real. Moving along.. I bet you think Pippen could guard him, don't you?

Tim - ^ that. You can bank on young Timmy doing 17 and 11 easy.. (I'm being nice)

Shaq - 45 points

I just don't see it happening for the 90s squad...

These BANDWAGON la fans.

Shaq and KOBE go all out but TIMMY gose out with 17 and 11? and thats being NICE?

  

 

[do be doo]

Originally Posted by Murda He

AI - Is he a better player than Payton/Kidd? Probably not all around..no way.. But is he more effective? Without a doubt. The AI that went to the Finals would KILL those PGs you listed. KILLLLLLLLLLLL...........Sorry. Payton couldn't guard A.I. with a pistol and a bullet proof vest. Who could? Kidd ain't getting those 7-9 boards either. That about ends the argument for who's talents would be better suited for this matchup. 25 and 6 from AI beats Kidds  12, 9, 5 on this night... maybe not in general, but in this game.

Kobe - Push. As good as Jordan is, on teams this stacked, I'm not sure either SG's edge would be THAT huge. Neither player would HAVE to ball dominate or chuck shots. Neither player would IMO. This would just be a real good slobber knocker between the two of them. I'd give the edge to Kobe for one reason :range. All that in the lane #*** is dead either way for BOTH teams. In this one, Jordan shoots a higher FG% but Kobe scores more. Neither man does a particularly good job at "stopping" the other.

Lebron - He's the best to ever play SF... period. And I damn near don't like him. I'm just being real. Moving along.. I bet you think Pippen could guard him, don't you?

Tim - ^ that. You can bank on young Timmy doing 17 and 11 easy.. (I'm being nice)

Shaq - 45 points

I just don't see it happening for the 90s squad...

These BANDWAGON la fans.

Shaq and KOBE go all out but TIMMY gose out with 17 and 11? and thats being NICE?

  

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Do Be Doo

Originally Posted by Murda He

AI - Is he a better player than Payton/Kidd? Probably not all around..no way.. But is he more effective? Without a doubt. The AI that went to the Finals would KILL those PGs you listed. KILLLLLLLLLLLL...........Sorry. Payton couldn't guard A.I. with a pistol and a bullet proof vest. Who could? Kidd ain't getting those 7-9 boards either. That about ends the argument for who's talents would be better suited for this matchup. 25 and 6 from AI beats Kidds  12, 9, 5 on this night... maybe not in general, but in this game.

Kobe - Push. As good as Jordan is, on teams this stacked, I'm not sure either SG's edge would be THAT huge. Neither player would HAVE to ball dominate or chuck shots. Neither player would IMO. This would just be a real good slobber knocker between the two of them. I'd give the edge to Kobe for one reason :range. All that in the lane #*** is dead either way for BOTH teams. In this one, Jordan shoots a higher FG% but Kobe scores more. Neither man does a particularly good job at "stopping" the other.

Lebron - He's the best to ever play SF... period. And I damn near don't like him. I'm just being real. Moving along.. I bet you think Pippen could guard him, don't you?

Tim - ^ that. You can bank on young Timmy doing 17 and 11 easy.. (I'm being nice)

Shaq - 45 points

I just don't see it happening for the 90s squad...

These BANDWAGON la fans.

Shaq and KOBE go all out but TIMMY gose out with 17 and 11? and thats being NICE?

  

The other type of nice man.

The one where Timmy could have easily went 30 and 15... but with shaq on the glass and shaq scoring 40 points, he honestly wouldn't have to or care to. And at that point, whoever he's guarding is getting 'ed the $@@! up.

Is that not the Tim Duncan mindset?

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Do Be Doo

Originally Posted by Murda He

AI - Is he a better player than Payton/Kidd? Probably not all around..no way.. But is he more effective? Without a doubt. The AI that went to the Finals would KILL those PGs you listed. KILLLLLLLLLLLL...........Sorry. Payton couldn't guard A.I. with a pistol and a bullet proof vest. Who could? Kidd ain't getting those 7-9 boards either. That about ends the argument for who's talents would be better suited for this matchup. 25 and 6 from AI beats Kidds  12, 9, 5 on this night... maybe not in general, but in this game.

Kobe - Push. As good as Jordan is, on teams this stacked, I'm not sure either SG's edge would be THAT huge. Neither player would HAVE to ball dominate or chuck shots. Neither player would IMO. This would just be a real good slobber knocker between the two of them. I'd give the edge to Kobe for one reason :range. All that in the lane #*** is dead either way for BOTH teams. In this one, Jordan shoots a higher FG% but Kobe scores more. Neither man does a particularly good job at "stopping" the other.

Lebron - He's the best to ever play SF... period. And I damn near don't like him. I'm just being real. Moving along.. I bet you think Pippen could guard him, don't you?

Tim - ^ that. You can bank on young Timmy doing 17 and 11 easy.. (I'm being nice)

Shaq - 45 points

I just don't see it happening for the 90s squad...

These BANDWAGON la fans.

Shaq and KOBE go all out but TIMMY gose out with 17 and 11? and thats being NICE?

  

The other type of nice man.

The one where Timmy could have easily went 30 and 15... but with shaq on the glass and shaq scoring 40 points, he honestly wouldn't have to or care to. And at that point, whoever he's guarding is getting 'ed the $@@! up.

Is that not the Tim Duncan mindset?

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl




Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

Oh, so please explain to me the bottom line.. You said that you didn't mean to say that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was better than a 90-91 MJ, yet you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was still MJ. How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

94-95 MJ who was away from basketball for less than two seasons is constantly getting a free pass for losing against the Magic because he was away from basketball, not in shape, etc. Even though he was still athletically active throughout that time. And he was only 31 at that point. Yet in your head a 39 year-old 01-02 MJ who was away from basketball for three full seasons was in shape?

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl




Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

Oh, so please explain to me the bottom line.. You said that you didn't mean to say that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was better than a 90-91 MJ, yet you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was still MJ. How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

94-95 MJ who was away from basketball for less than two seasons is constantly getting a free pass for losing against the Magic because he was away from basketball, not in shape, etc. Even though he was still athletically active throughout that time. And he was only 31 at that point. Yet in your head a 39 year-old 01-02 MJ who was away from basketball for three full seasons was in shape?

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl




Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

Oh, so please explain to me the bottom line.. You said that you didn't mean to say that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was better than a 90-91 MJ, yet you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was still MJ. How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

94-95 MJ who was away from basketball for less than two seasons is constantly getting a free pass for losing against the Magic because he was away from basketball, not in shape, etc. Even though he was still athletically active throughout that time. And he was only 31 at that point. Yet in your head a 39 year-old 01-02 MJ who was away from basketball for three full seasons was in shape?

I stopped trying to explain **%* to your know it all self a minute ago bruh.. it is what it is... I can only lead you TO the water.

How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

 

[murda he]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by Murda He

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl




Still MJ? STILL MJ?? Are you saying that the 01-02 MJ was better than the 90-91 MJ?

OH... I get it now! Why didn't you just say that in the first place? Your thing is taking what I say in plain english, making it mean something else, and then arguing with yourself. Carry on then. I won't stop you any longer. Bcause clearly the word STILL and the word BETTER are synonymous and imply improvement through aging and physical deterioration.

Then what the hell were you talking about when you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was away from basketball 3 years in 2001-02 MJ was "still MJ"? Were you talking about the name that is on his birth certificate? Because he's STILL Michael Jordan here in 2010 as well. Maybe he should suit up and drop 50 at the age of 50 then.

So...... you skipped over everything I said about being in NBA shape too? Or you just reworded it in your mind so as to understate it's significance?

Oh, so please explain to me the bottom line.. You said that you didn't mean to say that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was better than a 90-91 MJ, yet you said that a 39 year-old MJ who was "in NBA shape" was still MJ. How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

94-95 MJ who was away from basketball for less than two seasons is constantly getting a free pass for losing against the Magic because he was away from basketball, not in shape, etc. Even though he was still athletically active throughout that time. And he was only 31 at that point. Yet in your head a 39 year-old 01-02 MJ who was away from basketball for three full seasons was in shape?

I stopped trying to explain **%* to your know it all self a minute ago bruh.. it is what it is... I can only lead you TO the water.

How much non-better yet still the same MJ was he in 2001-02 compared to 1990-91?

 

[do be doo]

Originally Posted by Murda He

The other type of nice man.

The one where Timmy could have easily went 30 and 15... but with shaq on the glass and shaq scoring 40 points, he honestly wouldn't have to or care to. And at that point, whoever he's guarding is getting 'ed the %!%@ up.

Is that not the Tim Duncan mindset?

Oh  I got you now.

Timmy would just want that W. The rest can go to whoever.(See 07 finals)

  

 

[do be doo]

Originally Posted by Murda He

The other type of nice man.

The one where Timmy could have easily went 30 and 15... but with shaq on the glass and shaq scoring 40 points, he honestly wouldn't have to or care to. And at that point, whoever he's guarding is getting 'ed the %!%@ up.

Is that not the Tim Duncan mindset?

Oh  I got you now.

Timmy would just want that W. The rest can go to whoever.(See 07 finals)

  

 

[kix4kix]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Why would anybody in their right mind ever doubt Jordan on the court??

 

[murda he]

^Exactly... now apologize. I'm NOT a bandwagon fan man!

 

[murda he]

^Exactly... now apologize. I'm NOT a bandwagon fan man!

 

[kix4kix]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Why would anybody in their right mind ever doubt Jordan on the court??

 

[do be doo]

Yeah my fault on that.

 

[do be doo]

Yeah my fault on that.

 

[fatal lightning]

did jordan ever score 100? no, did he come close? no. will he ever be able to do it? no.. so there is no point in arguing. every retired player can open their mouth and say those things.

i wonder if jordan had a rival, what would have happened to his legacy, (championships).. if only len bias didnt die.. wonder if he could've been jordan's rival

 

[fatal lightning]

did jordan ever score 100? no, did he come close? no. will he ever be able to do it? no.. so there is no point in arguing. every retired player can open their mouth and say those things.

i wonder if jordan had a rival, what would have happened to his legacy, (championships).. if only len bias didnt die.. wonder if he could've been jordan's rival