Joe Rogan Podcast

[osh kosh bosh]

Some real avant- gard views there osh kosh bosh

I swear, everytime you post about issues like this, it’s interesting and wild how you completely leave out history of this type of ****, when it comes to speech. You act like we’ve always lived in some society, where all voices have been treated equally .

I don't know how you came to that conclusion?
I didn't say "everything has been equal up until now"

im commenting on the dynamics about speech and culture today.
not across entire human history.

Of course all voices were not being treated equally.
and for most of my life it was traditionally progressives who were arguing for wider range of speech.

and it's been the conservative and racist voices engaging in suppression.

that why I find it so bewildering for progressive to be arguing for giant corporations
to exert great control over speech and expression.

people who have historically had no voice, or talked to anyway…finally get a medium and platform to say….”this isn’t okay”…And you cry unfair cancel culture. It’s reductive. People are free to say annnnyyything that they want. Of course you know there are consequences.

There are two problems.

1. is it creates a framework where any amount of suppression can be justified if you can frame it as the protection of marginalized people.

you don't see how this can be disengeously abused by the most mendacious people in any group?

this constantly happens in book publishing, authors get early copies of books and they grab quotes that a racist or sexist character says
and they use that to foment an online mob against the author.

I don't actually think it's just marginalized people finally getting a voice,
I think it's also disingenuous actors using marginalized groups as a cudgel to pursue their own agenda.

2. It's fine for people can say they don't like something,
my problem is framing disagreement as bigotry and delegitimizing dissent.

unless an idea is super marginal you can't use suppression to get rid of it
all you do is create an environment where life is like jane austen comedy of manners

where everyone has to memorize and arcane series of speech rules,
but basically maintain the same beliefs

you can't suppress your way to justice, you actually have to persuade people.
so imo this culture of shunning
doesn't benefit anyone other than college educated cultural elites.

It’s like you have this abstract idea of some libertarian fantasy world…where some cultural liberal elites are silencing conservative voices all over America because of some power of pressure , and they are helpless to say words or right things anymore, because of the big bad cancel culture. When in fact, they DOMINATE media. On all platforms. And literally have a bunch of silicon valley right wing libertarians (thiel and zuck) giving preferential treatment and boosting algorithms for them.

contemporary popular media and culture is dominated by progressives.
Conservatives are popular on facebook because facebook is for old people now.

The Zuckerberg example proves my point.

Zucks bet on the metaverse is essentially a recognition of this,
he knows facebook brand is tarnished with young people, and he's trying to get in early on the next communication space prime demographics will occupy.

the most valuable consumer demographic is young people
and young people are by in large progressive, so music, tv film, is going to try mirror their perspective.

Look at where we are today man. Nothing could be further from the truth. We, us…grew up in a time and entered the workforce in times where we couldn’t even fully express ourselves as black people to the fullest. All are education was whitewashed. Our speech actually denied. Music. Censored. Entertainment black balled and otherwised to be completely outside the mainstream . Even comedians in the 90s…having to perform at black clubs.

It was not that long ago, that Michael Jackson…in the midst of arguably the biggest album of all time…couldn’t get on MTV. Prince, couldn’t get played in the Midwest. Where he’s from.

all this is true, what does it have to do with the point im making?
the fact that white socitey and conservatism once had greater control of culture
it means that anything progressives do today is okay? huh?

Seriously tho man, that **** is annoying and offensive when you play these imaginary semantic games, over things and ideas and movements we’ve seen in history real time…time and time over.

Ppl of course aren’t perfect, and ppl searching online for “gotcha” moments to mark people as bad, can be annoying. But that’s not really doing anything.

The people that suffer consequences for their f-d up speech, have it coming.

stop with this "imagning" stuff

YOU yourself say that now marginalized voices have more of voice to say "this is not okay" today vs the 90's
so something HAS changed.

i'm not imagining anything, you just think it's good. that's fine
I don't agree totally. but acting like it's all imaginary just seems contradictory.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Well said.

And even if you disregard history for a minute, there is something to be said about defending someone's right to speech when that person uses it to lie to millions of people about procedures that have really negative consequences for the 100s of thousands who adopt them.

The fact that Joe Rogan chooses to have kooks and nut jobs on his platform is bad, and irresponsible

but

1. you cannot suppress Joe Rogan out of existence.

removing joe rogan for spotify would result in more people hearing him not less.
it serves zero actual purpose other than signaling.

and imo the main signal it sends is.;
if you stray outside the ever narrowing bounds of acceptable discourse
as determined by the progressive cultural elites, you will be shunned
and your probably ****** if you aren't as powerful as Rogan or Chappelle.

I don't think that does anything to help anyone.

2. The pandemic makes this argument incredibly problematic.
The efficacy or masking, droplet vs aerosol transition, the efficacy of boosters ect

the "correct" answers on this have shifted wildly, how do you determine who should be shunned?


When the Biden administration wanted to do vaccines but the public health people were saying no. were they spreading misinformation?

when the pandemic started and I was importing KN95 masks and was giving them to family members. meanwhile Dr. Fauci was telling people not to buy masks... was I spreading misinformation?

im not saying these are equivalent to what Rogan is doing
but my point is who do you trust to make the determinations on truth?

I find it really weird that progressives answer seems to be "corporations and upper class corporate middle management"

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This invocation of "history" I find strange.

I thought it was bad when white supremacist and the conservative moral majority
we're constantly constricting the bounds of acceptable discourse
and using speech codes as a cudgel to pursue their own narrow interests.


I also think it's bad when progressives do it.
I don't think it's ignoring history, I think it's being consistent.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I find it really weird that progressives answer seems to be "corporations and upper class corporate middle management"

It is wild that this is how you categorize people looking to the administrative state to do their job in such a negative manner

We live in representative democracy, but go forbid people put trust in any part of it because.....check notes....they have college degrees

If you want to say the bureaucrats get it wrong sometimes, fine

If you have a specific grievance as to where the system puts the levers of power, fine

But this is a diet libertarian categorization of what some people (of course the cat all now is progressives) is doing. You outchea sounding like a George Mason professor

 

[thehealthinspector]

all this is true, what does it have to do with the point im making?
the fact that white socitey and conservatism once had greater control of culture
it means that anything progressives do today is okay? huh?

some people honestly believe this

everything they say and do is justified in the name of "equality"

as long as you believe in "progressivism", you'll never be wrong

 

[RustyShackleford]

some people honestly believe this

everything they say and do is justified in the name of "equality"

as long as you believe in "progressivism", you'll never be wrong

Alibaba Osh back in here right on cue

 

[Methodical Management]

Imagine spending this much time demanding that a White guy be allowed to repeatedly use racial slurs at work with no career repurcussions, or else the ”cultural elites” will get to decide how much leg the M&M’s can show.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

It is wild that this is how you categorize people looking to the administrative state to do their job in such a negative manner

We live in representative democracy, but go forbid people put trust in any part of it because.....check notes....they have college degrees

If you want to say the bureaucrats get it wrong sometimes, fine

If you have a specific grievance as to where the system puts the levers of power, fine

But this is a diet libertarian categorization of what some people (of course the cat all now is progressives) is doing. You outchea sounding like a George Mason professor

Im not talking about governments?

im talking about celebrity boycotts demanding that corporations take a stronger in suppressing unfavorable view points.

i find weird that progressives are so gung ho about this

when as wavycrocket eloquently pointed out, for the longest time they were working hand in glove with white supremacy and conservatism.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Imagine spending this much time demanding that a White guy be allowed to repeatedly use racial slurs at work with no career repurcussions, or else the ”cultural elites” will get to decide how much leg the M&M’s can show.

no what im saying is that ineffectual boycotts against popular media figure for
unclear and contradictory reasons is not fighting white supremacy.

and people should think more critically, about who this stuff really benefits

 

[gry60]

1. you cannot suppress Joe Rogan out of existence.

Show me who is burning down Spotify for hosting Joe Rogan.

"Progressives" are taking their music and money away from the platform. That's different from conservative legislatures allowing individuals to sue teachers for introducing topics like socialism or Jim Crow laws into the curriculum. Between these two responses to uncomfortable discussions, the latter makes the former insignificant.

2. The pandemic makes this argument incredibly problematic.

Are vaccines killing people? That's what some of those idiots have said on Joe Rogan's podcast.

Early into the pandemic, Brazilian labs stopped clinical trials on hydroxychloroquine because the most common outcome of the treatment was death. Yet, we still hear people swear by those treatments, and Joe has been talking about these Facebook pharmacy cocktails on his show when he was sick, hasn't he?

when the pandemic started and I was importing KN95 masks and was giving them to family members. meanwhile Dr. Fauci was telling people not to buy masks... was I spreading misinformation?

Here's an example of you missing the nuance of Fauci's comments. They specifically said not to hoard the best masks because they were in short supply and the priority should be given to medical employees; he didn't say "don't buy masks" because masks were ineffective.

the "correct" answers on this have shifted wildly

Have they?

Vaccines are still the safest way to avoid the worst outcome of an infection; the lockdowns have had a minimal effect on the mortality rate, but they have definitely avoided a collapse of the healthcare system; just look at how ERs are struggling with 2k deaths/day.

We can argue about getting a fourth dose vs keeping at three, but such a discussion is more about the duration of the immunity provided by the vaccines; it doesn't challenge the decisive impact that vaccination campaigns have had in keeping the pandemic under control.

A wild shift would be to say that we would have reached the current outcome (or better) without vaccines, social distancing, and mask adoption.

 

[Methodical Management]

no what im saying is that ineffectual boycotts against popular media figure for
unclear and contradictory reasons is not fighting white supremacy.

and people should think more critically, about who this stuff really benefits

Were you this worked up when Dr. Seuss Enterprises ceased publication of its six most indefensible titles or Disney put a content warning on Dumbo and Song of the South?

 

[gry60]

no what im saying is that ineffectual boycotts against popular media figure for
unclear and contradictory reasons is not fighting white supremacy.

and people should think more critically, about who this stuff really benefits

The boycotts are not for unclear and contradictory reasons. The reasons have been clearly spelled out: covid misinformation and racist remarks.

This invocation of "history" I find strange.

Those who don't know the history of black detractors of bus boycotts are doomed to repeat it...

 

[RustyShackleford]

Im not talking about governments?

im talking about celebrity boycotts demanding that corporations take a stronger in suppressing unfavorable view points.

i find weird that progressives are so gung ho about this

when as wavycrocket eloquently pointed out, for the longest time they were working hand in glove with white supremacy and conservatism.

Huh? You literally listed government entities....

The fact that Joe Rogan chooses to have kooks and nut jobs on his platform is bad, and irresponsible

but

1. you cannot suppress Joe Rogan out of existence.

removing joe rogan for spotify would result in more people hearing him not less.
it serves zero actual purpose other than signaling.

and imo the main signal it sends is.;
if you stray outside the ever narrowing bounds of acceptable discourse
as determined by the progressive cultural elites, you will be shunned
and your probably ****ed if you aren't as powerful as Rogan or Chappelle.

I don't think that does anything to help anyone.

2. The pandemic makes this argument incredibly problematic.
The efficacy or masking, droplet vs aerosol transition, the efficacy of boosters ect

the "correct" answers on this have shifted wildly, how do you determine who should be shunned?


When the Biden administration wanted to do vaccines but the public health people were saying no. were they spreading misinformation?

when the pandemic started and I was importing KN95 masks and was giving them to family members. meanwhile Dr. Fauci was telling people not to buy masks... was I spreading misinformation?

im not saying these are equivalent to what Rogan is doing
but my point is who do you trust to make the determinations on truth?

I find it really weird that progressives answer seems to be "corporations and upper class corporate middle management"

You made the same argument in the Political thread weeks ago. You made a remix of this regarding teachers.

So if you are talking about corporations, what was even the point of this?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Were you this worked up when Dr. Seuss Enterprises ceased publication of its six most indefensible titles or Disney put a content warning on Dumbo and Song of the South?

I don't have a problem with people putting a warning on their older racist content,
that seems totally reasonable. I prefer that to suppression.

im not anti moderation, i'm on this forum, which as I've said is well moderated.

the dr sues thing was such an obviously fake right wing media creation
it's hard to look past that

and i think it's a bit different, a publisher choosing not to publish something anymore
vs kinda suppression effectuated by shunning.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Huh? You literally listed government entities....



You made the same argument in the Political thread weeks ago. You made a remix of this regarding teachers.

So if you are talking about corporations, what was even the point of this?

i was using that as an example of shifting "truth" on covid

so i was pointing to the conflict between the biden administration and public health officials on boosters.

the point i was trying to make was that it's not always that easy to make determinations on truth and misinformation. especially on covid.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I actually fine with Spotify keep Rogan

But I am sick and tired of Spotify, his defenders, and people that like to sanitize the **** he does treating him with kids gloves

Rogan is not stupid, he is not some arts just putting his art out there, he is not some harmless guy having discussions. Let us stop ******* acting like he more innocuous than he is, stop acting like he doesn't have agency over his actions

A lot of people that what he and his guess dead serious

I think when it comes to Covid, Spotify from the jump should have put up warnings and disclaimers that the info being disseminated on the show didn't line up with reality

Post link of well-sourced contradictory information. Hell force Rogan to bring them on his show

I dunno people so scared of this new progressive attack on censorship peddle right wings criticism of "progressives" and not instead champion the liberal tradition of making sure ******** gets challenged at the source

 

[RustyShackleford]

i was using that as an example of shifting "truth" on covid

so i was pointing to the conflict between the biden administration and public health officials on boosters.

the point i was trying to make was that it's not always that easy to make determinations on truth and misinformation. especially on covid.

To what end, defend Rogan?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The boycotts are not for unclear and contradictory reasons. The reasons have been clearly spelled out: covid misinformation and racist remarks.

covid mis information has been disseminated by many trusted media sources,
public health officials throughout this pandemic.

and neil young himself has peddled scientific misinformation on GMO's

so it's hard to view this as a principled opposition.

racist remarks.

they have the ben shapiro show, the steve bannon show, they have racists, misogynist, artist all on spotify, they have misogynistic, homophobic content on spotify.

this clearly isn't a consistently applied principle,

 

[osh kosh bosh]

To what end, defend Rogan?

i was trying to demonstrate that banning people for misinformation is principle that is not so clear and easy to apply especially with covid.

I think what joe rogan is doing on covid is wrong and bad and stupid.
but a lot of people have been wrong about covid on various fronts

 

[RustyShackleford]

covid mis information has been disseminated by many trusted media sources,
public health officials throughout this pandemic.

and neil young himself has peddled scientific misinformation on GMO's

so it's hard to view this as a principled opposition.

Have they done it on the same level as Rogan?

Which member of the Biden administration has been touting an unproven treatment, pointing to incorrect and nonexistent evidence of its effectiveness, told people that people in power are hiding things from them, downplayed the effects of Covid, and then when they themselves caught it got so terrified they took everything they could get their hands on

because it seems we need to keep perspective on what Rogan did compared to the counter examples you are using

 

[RustyShackleford]

i was trying to demonstrate that banning people for misinformation is principle that is not so clear and easy to apply especially with covid.

I think what joe rogan is doing on covid is wrong and bad and stupid.
but a lot of people have been wrong about covid on various fronts

The problem is that you are treating it, all the same, throw nuance out the door, to pass off this tacit both sides defense of Rogan

Again, if the roles were reversed you would not accept someone else doing what you are doing right now

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Have they done it on the same level as Rogan?

Which member of the Biden administration has been touting an unproven treatment, pointing to incorrect evidence of its effectiveness, told people that people in power are hiding things from them, downplayed the effects of Covid, and then when they themselves caught it got so terrified they took everything they could get their hands of

because it seems we need to keep perspective on what Rogan did compared to the counter examples you are using

to be clear i was saying biden admin was right, and public health officials were wrong about boosters.

no they definitely haven't, but at the end of the day it becomes about where do you want to draw the line.

and I think it's better general if as you say we challenge that stuff, with more speech.

because letting corporations and employees of corporations draw the line
I think is more problematic than I think some people want to admit.

 

[Zainjal26]

Have they done it on the same level as Rogan?

Which member of the Biden administration has been touting an unproven treatment, pointing to incorrect evidence of its effectiveness, told people that people in power are hiding things from them, downplayed the effects of Covid, and then when they themselves caught it got so terrified they took everything they could get their hands of

because it seems we need to keep perspective on what Rogan did compared to the counter examples you are using

And Didn’t Biden say don’t vaccinate under the trump administration?

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think it was last week Joe Rogan smugly retweeted an article about the effectiveness of ivermectin on omicron

He didn't even bother to open the damn article to see that it said that it had NOT been proven it was an effective treatment against it in human

An of course one of his fanboy NT posted the same article on the site

Buffoon leading Buffoons

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The problem is that you are treating it, all the same, throw nuance out the door, to pass off this tacit both sides defense of Rogan

Again, if the roles were reversed you would not accept someone else doing what you are doing right now

what rogan is doing is absolutely 100% worse.
I don't want to draw a false equivalency.

but do you trust, spotify, or musicians rich enough to pull music off spotify
to decide how to parse the nuance.

or is it better if people focussed on challenging rogan?

shunning rogan imo just leads to him becoming hermetically sealed in this misinformation ecosystem and is never challenged.