Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[DLF]

 

[DLF]

 

[DLF]

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[gry60]

Force and diplomacy must always go hand in hand.

Few people today know that Mandela was a paramilitary leader; he understood the limits of violence in securing the freedom of Black South Africans.

Hamas ****** up. Yes, more Palestinians than Israelis have died and will continue to die, but yesterday showed that they're not the organization that will lead Palestine to freedom and international recognition as a state.

Israeli soldiers were literally revolting against the extremist aspirations of the BIbi government. Why give him the gift of external aggression instead of using his unpopularity to further discredit the colonization of Palestinian territories?

That was a stupid move. I don't even know if we could argue today that Hamas' main objective is Palestinian freedom.

Almost a year ago, I posted the above in the Politics thread.

Today, the political leadership of Hamas is dead, the military leadership is in hiding, Hezbollah has been decimated, and Palestinians have lost all the diplomatic and military leverage they could have used to influence negotiations for a future state. They are now at the mercy of Israel, other Arab leaders (who are glad to see Iran and her proxies weakened, and who probably put the prospect of that happening above the Palestinian cause), and the UN.

And just in case my post gets misinterpreted here, this isn't a celebratory post; these are just observations from someone who doesn't know **** about politics...

 

[smedroc]

 

[DLF]

 

[me love nutella]

Almost a year ago, I posted the above in the Politics thread.

Today, the political leadership of Hamas is dead, the military leadership is in hiding, Hezbollah has been decimated, and Palestinians have lost all the diplomatic and military leverage they could have used to influence negotiations for a future state. They are now at the mercy of Israel, other Arab leaders (who are glad to see Iran and her proxies weakened, and who probably put the prospect of that happening above the Palestinian cause), and the UN.

And just in case my post gets misinterpreted here, this isn't a celebratory post; these are just observations from someone who doesn't know **** about politics...

How did Hamas F up? You're not getting that the point of US foreign policy and Israel is to change the balance of power and redraw borders of the Middle East. This has been the plan FOR DECADES, not decided just recently. This is not just about Palestinians. This stretches to even policy and protection of Saudi Arabia and other Arab states, as you know.

Also killing leaders doesn't kill movements. They've been assassinating Arab leaders and heads of rebellion and resistance movements for decades.

Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid. Many believe apartheid would have endured much longer if he hadn’t rebelled and overturned the ANC’s long-standing nonviolence policy back in the 60s.

The Palestinians have committed to peace and also non-violence resistance and have done peace talks. What was the outcome? Didn't the PLO renounce to degrade and demilitarize and got co-opted by Israel?

This is not South Africa. This is Israel that's the brain child of a European settler colonial project and outpost that's backed by the West/US and armed as a nuclear power and to the teeth bent on destruction and genocide to expand their reach, take lands and resources and remain the superpower in the region.

 

[smedroc]

They got Rappaport running their X account??

 

[DLF]

They got Rappaport running their X account??

imagine a country full of rappaports. yuck

 

[DLF]

imagine being on the side of rapists and an army resorting to such:

 

[TURBO UNO]

Disgusting behavior

 

[DLF]

they know where all these leaders are. can kill them anytime they want.

 

[gry60]

This has been the plan FOR DECADES

Plans are dependent on circumstances, and circumstances are not set in stone. That's the part you're not getting.

Hamas ****** up because they gave Israel a very good excuse to enter Gaza long after they had left. Expecting Israelis to just sit back and issue statements after that attack, considering how their previous responses have been for much less, is just delusional. None of this is hard to grasp because Israelis have been predictable and non-ambiguous about their stance on external aggressions.

Furthermore, Hamas took the focus of Israeli society away from the PM they were angry about and his right-wing coalition and redirected it towards the Palestinian people. On Oct 8th, they were encouraging Hezbollah to attack Northern Israel, which never happened. They miscalculated by emboldening an unpopular leader, and they miscalculated by trusting the capabilities of allies who turned out to be paper monsters. The only thing left that could help Palestinians now is hoping that Israel will be made a pariah state by the international community, and that remains to be seen because of who Israel is allied with.

Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid. Many believe apartheid would have endured much longer if he hadn’t rebelled and overturned the ANC’s long-standing nonviolence policy back in the 60s.

Mandela never attacked civilian infrastructure; his targets were the Apartheid security apparatus. He also renounced violence while he was incarcerated at Robben Island. A lot of people wanted him to do the same thing Mugabe did in Zimbabwe (drive out the Afrikaners); instead, he established a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to allow all South Africans to have a fresh start.

The Palestinians have committed to peace and also non-violence resistance and have done peace talks. What was the outcome? Didn't the PLO renounce to degrade and demilitarize and got co-opted by Israel?

Have they?

Arafat was always very wishy-washy about the position of the PLO on the existence of Israel, which is the main contention of this conflict. Arafat famously refused to continue the Camp David talks, partly because he was afraid of being killed by other Palestinian factions for being the guy who gave up on part of Mandatory Palestine.

This is Israel that's the brain child of a European settler colonial project and outpost that's backed by the West/US and armed as a nuclear power and to the teeth bent on destruction and genocide to expand their reach, take lands and resources and remain the superpower in the region.

The fundamental disagreement I have with this line of thinking - specifically the characterization of Israel as an outpost of the West - is, it assumes that Israel doesn't have its own ambitions, irrespective of what the US wants. Israel is not a vassal state of Western nations. Their goals are at odds with the preferred outcome of the State department, and they've been pretty blatant about ignoring American requests when it comes to conducting their war. Now, I've gone at length on why I think the US is still supporting Israel, and these are considerations that fall outside of realm of morals. And if I had to guess, an invasion of Lebanon would probably make the US take a stronger stance against Israel, but not before the UK/EU joins the other nations that are already condemning them.

 

[DLF]

days before nasrallah taken out


today:




kamala will say “israel is just defending itself”

 

[DLF]

how dare you attack our military basis in the name of opposing genocide

we will now bomb you civilians, civilian infrastructure and ability to get food

out greatest ally and Kamala’s masters:

 

[DLF]

it’s crazy that hezbollah to date has only targeted military sites while Israel bombs residential buildings.

 

[LD7]

As long as Israel can get away with this while standing behind their religion/God, it’s very hard to actually believe in those texts, teachings, truths, etc.

*not to demonize anyone’s beliefs, but it is what it is at this point, after doing this for so long with no end in sight.

 

[onthenephs]

Yo I watched his speech. Dude begins with “when Moses was…”

Like if this was any Muslim president, that opens a speech like that in the UN, they would be immediately classified as a terrorist organization.

 

[LD7]

 

[me love nutella]

Plans are dependent on circumstances, and circumstances are not set in stone. That's the part you're not getting.

Hamas ****** up because they gave Israel a very good excuse to enter Gaza long after they had left. Expecting Israelis to just sit back and issue statements after that attack, considering how their previous responses have been for much less, is just delusional. None of this is hard to grasp because Israelis have been predictable and non-ambiguous about their stance on external aggressions.

Furthermore, Hamas took the focus of Israeli society away from the PM they were angry about and his right-wing coalition and redirected it towards the Palestinian people. On Oct 8th, they were encouraging Hezbollah to attack Northern Israel, which never happened. They miscalculated by emboldening an unpopular leader, and they miscalculated by trusting the capabilities of allies who turned out to be paper monsters. The only thing left that could help Palestinians now is hoping that Israel will be made a pariah state by the international community, and that remains to be seen because of who Israel is allied with.


Mandela never attacked civilian infrastructure; his targets were the Apartheid security apparatus. He also renounced violence while he was incarcerated at Robben Island. A lot of people wanted him to do the same thing Mugabe did in Zimbabwe (drive out the Afrikaners); instead, he established a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to allow all South Africans to have a fresh start.


Have they?

Arafat was always very wishy-washy about the position of the PLO on the existence of Israel, which is the main contention of this conflict. Arafat famously refused to continue the Camp David talks, partly because he was afraid of being killed by other Palestinian factions for being the guy who gave up on part of Mandatory Palestine.



The fundamental disagreement I have with this line of thinking - specifically the characterization of Israel as an outpost of the West - is, it assumes that Israel doesn't have its own ambitions, irrespective of what the US wants. Israel is not a vassal state of Western nations. Their goals are at odds with the preferred outcome of the State department, and they've been pretty blatant about ignoring American requests when it comes to conducting their war. Now, I've gone at length on why I think the US is still supporting Israel, and these are considerations that fall outside of realm of morals. And if I had to guess, an invasion of Lebanon would probably make the US take a stronger stance against Israel, but not before the UK/EU joins the other nations that are already condemning them.

Disagree with you on a lot of this, because Hamas were not just going to sit back being under siege of a brutal and violent blockade and concentration camp, while Palestinians were also getting killed, their lands confiscated, & stolen with illegal settlements, also while their religious sites are attacked in the West Bank. The year 2023 was one of the most violent recent years and deaths for Palestinians before Oct. 7. Hamas kept warning Israel to stop, and also knew of Netanyahu's plans.

Palestinians were willing to guarantee the security of Israel in the context of ending the occupation, and take only 22% of what settler colonizer Israel stole from them for the emergence of allowing the Palestinian independence state. Israel never offered statehood, all they want is Palestinians to have a quasi-state.

Western logic: Colonization is violent and we're allowed to blow up, plunder, and genocide our way through, but decolonization must be completely non-violent.

As for Mandela...Let's remember Mandela was once considered a criminal by South Africa's government and labeled a communist and terrorist in the eyes of the United States, where he remained on a terrorism watch list until 2008. ANC’s armed wing was linked to several high-profile bombings that killed South African civilians throughout the 1980s, prompting some among the country’s white minority to blame the “terrorist” Mandela.

Also, how is it you think Israel is not some Western vessel state when that is literally the foundation of Israel?

 

[DripNick]

I guess Rabbi an antisemite too

 

[gry60]

Hamas were not just going to sit back

Military leaders have written at length about ego and pride and how they are poor reasons to dive into battle.

Western logic: Colonization is violent and we're allowed to blow up, plunder, and genocide our way through, but decolonization must be completely non-violent.

As for Mandela...Let's remember Mandela was once considered a criminal by South Africa's government and labeled a communist and terrorist in the eyes of the United States, where he remained on a terrorism watch list until 2008. ANC’s armed wing was linked to several high-profile bombings that killed South African civilians throughout the 1980s, prompting some among the country’s white minority to blame the “terrorist” Mandela.

It funny how you always revert back to characterizing my arguments as "Western," when my formative years were spent reading and absorbing anti colonial literature.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how and why decolonization happens: colonization stops when it becomes too costly to maintain. It's the story of France in Indochina, Algeria, and in Haiti (which led to the Louisiana purchase and the widespread decolonization of French Africa); more recently, it's the history of the US in Afghanistan (regime change could be seen as a colonial project as well, in the sense that an external power decides to modify the internal structure of a society to its liking).

Mandela's non-violent movement made Apartheid too costly to maintain: the South African government started banning from the country white South Africans critical of the system (look up Andre Brink); their teams were banned from international competitions and trade with most nations. Exiled South Africans led boycott movements in western countries to exercise pressure on the Apartheid regime. Even the US begrudgingly abided by this state of affairs (at least in public). And the difference between the ANC and Hamas/PLO/PIJ is, the South African government couldn't point to an Iron Dome and the ANC rockets it intercepted.

How has armed resistance made Israeli occupation too costly to maintain? How has it motivated US support for Israel to decrease? If you ask me, the opposite has happened: every rocket launched is an excuse for them to ask the West more money in the name of security, and jeopardizing the security of Jewish people is a historical mistake that most western governments won't commit for a long time.

 

[smedroc]

Is this comes down to nukes I pray the first one hits this ***** in the forehead.

 

[me love nutella]

Military leaders have written at length about ego and pride and how they are poor reasons to dive into battle.

Where is ego and pride when it comes to defending from being violently and brutally oppressed, killed and your lands confiscated?

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how and why decolonization happens: colonization stops when it becomes too costly to maintain. It's the story of France in Indochina, Algeria, and in Haiti (which led to the Louisiana purchase and the widespread decolonization of French Africa); more recently, it's the history of the US in Afghanistan (regime change could be seen as a colonial project as well, in the sense that an external power decides to modify the internal structure of a society to its liking).

Mandela's non-violent movement made Apartheid too costly to maintain: the South African government started banning from the country white South Africans critical of the system (look up Andre Brink); their teams were banned from international competitions and trade with most nations. Exiled South Africans led boycott movements in western countries to exercise pressure on the Apartheid regime. Even the US begrudgingly abided by this state of affairs (at least in public). And the difference between the ANC and Hamas/PLO/PIJ is, the South African government couldn't point to an Iron Dome and the ANC rockets it intercepted.

There is no blueprint for implementing decolonisation projects successfully. There is no single authoritative strategy on offer for those involved in struggles for justice. Effective change cannot be achieved through a negotiated settlement with a colonial force and that it will only be achieved through a comprehensive process of decolonization, one that will also hold colonial violence to account.

Also, there's differences between SA and Palestine as well when it comes to their liberation movements and struggles.
Exploited Black workers were able to play a major role in making the SA ungovernable through labor strikes because of white South Africans’ substantial economic dependence on their labor. This dynamic gave industrial, commercial and trade unions an upper hand in mobilizing masses of people in the service of political struggle that influenced and strengthened the international solidarity with global sanctions and boycotts.

By contrast, Zionists had, from the onset of settlement, intentionally alienated Palestinians from the labor force and replaced them with Jewish settlers. While labor exploitation in part shaped the conditions that led to the outbreak of the first Palestinian Intifada in 1987, organized labor revolt was less effective for Palestinians who were unable to shake the entire infrastructure of the settler state through large-scale strikes as their counterparts had done in South Africa.

How has armed resistance made Israeli occupation too costly to maintain? How has it motivated US support for Israel to decrease? If you ask me, the opposite has happened: every rocket launched is an excuse for them to ask the West more money in the name of security, and jeopardizing the security of Jewish people is a historical mistake that most western governments won't commit for a long time.

Palestinians had not achieved the same political gains by the time they arrived at the negotiation table as SA's apartheid resistance and the PLO’s long exile had made Palestinian political and armed resistance heavily dependent on regional forces that were increasingly colluding with Israel and imperialist forces.

We are not in the 1800s where settler colonialism was the norm. Israel is not sustainable:

1. The demographics issue where Arabs multiplying at higher rates.
2. Israel is highly dependent on US- Politically, financially, and militarily.
3. World sentiment has changed, and Israel and US have lost the propaganda war to drive support for Zionism and Israel's survival as an ethno settler-colonial state.

The only way Israel can survive (as a Jewish majority country):

1. Exterminate Arabs and non-Jewish people.
2. The West supporting it blindly, including breaking its own laws and violating international rules-based order, ex., trump freedom of speech,
3. Constant wars to secure financial and military support from the West.

Israel will lead to its own demise as well, and the U.S. can only keep giving excuses to support and drive this settler colonial project because the above will economically drain them and continue to make Israel an eventual pariah state. We are only at year 76 of official settler colonialism of Palestine. Long story short.... Israel realizes this and that's why it commits ethnic cleansing and genocide, and will keep going berzek and violently bloodthirsty depending on symbolic achievement like assassinating leaders, which has yet to quell the resistance and achieve military objectives.