IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[onetrust]

baseball is baseball and basketball is basketball. a panel not fans select all nba teams. the all star game is a popularity vote and not based on merit.

So you think Kobe deserved those 1st team defenses and 2nd team last year? Wow. Just because a "panel" selects it, doesn't make it anymore right. They're the same idiot coaches that snub all star reserves every year as well. Kobe has been getting on those teams off name alone. Stop frontin like it's been based on his actual performance.

Also, kobe fans need to stop acting like the Lakers don't win without Kobe or that they'd be the worst team in the L if Kobe wasn't in the lineup.

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

And Derek Jeter wins the gold glove every year


Popularity Contest

baseball is baseball and basketball is basketball. a panel not fans select all nba teams. the all star game is a popularity vote and not based on merit.

Fans don't select gold gloves either

 

[deuce king]

At the end of the day when Shaq and Kobe were together, Shaq was Batman and Kobe was Robin. Simple as that.

 

[thegoldenchild]

At the end of the day when Shaq and Kobe were together, Shaq was Batman and Kobe was Robin. Simple as that.

Maybe so, but shaq didnt want to admit that at some point kobe was more important to the lakers than he was. And showing up to training camp overweight didnt help either.. shaq could take a backseat in miami but refused to do that in la..

 

[deuce king]

At the end of the day when Shaq and Kobe were together, Shaq was Batman and Kobe was Robin. Simple as that.

Maybe so, but shaq didnt want to admit that at some point kobe was more important to the lakers than he was. And showing up to training camp overweight didnt help either.. shaq could take a backseat in miami but refused to do that in la..

Nah ain't no MAYBE SO about it champ, Shaq was running the show and Kobe early on was designated to getting the bags off the bus for the team. Now if you wanna call getting the bags off the bus an important role then more power to you. I and others however call getting a regular season MVP trophy and being the most dominated player during that particular era a far more important role.

 

[mister friendly]

Nah ain't no MAYBE SO about it champ, Shaq was running the show and Kobe early on was designated to getting the bags off the bus for the team. Now if you wanna call getting the bags off the bus an important role then more power to you. I and others however call getting a regular season MVP trophy and being the most dominated player during that particular era a far more important role.

Another thing people forget this era when Shaq was "running" the show. Kobe was like a baby 19-22....years old and like 2-3 years in the league, just developing his NBA skills.....

while Shaq was 26-29 years old in his athletic prime. A physical specimen and 7-10 year veteran.

If you put any great player( Jordan, Magic, Bird or Lebron) at their 19-22 player development with Shaq at that time. Shaq is still" running the show."

For it to even be debatable Kobe and Shaq or Shaq and Kobe just tells you how great Kobe was and is.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Nah ain't no MAYBE SO about it champ, Shaq was running the show and Kobe early on was designated to getting the bags off the bus for the team. Now if you wanna call getting the bags off the bus an important role then more power to you. I and others however call getting a regular season MVP trophy and being the most dominated player during that particular era a far more important role.

You're comapring being a rookie to a vet.. really? Which had nothing to do with on the court action. Like shaq never had to do anything lik3 that when he was a rookie. Yet an 18 year old rookie kobe is forced to bail the lakers out in the playoffs because shaq, ej and van exel couldnt get a shot off.. might have shot airballs but no other player wanted to take those shots and no other player on that roster would be in the gym the next day, working on those shots he missed the night before

By the time he was 22 he was the one that bailed the lakers out against the pacers.. when shaq was sitting on the bench and he played on a bad ankle. So say all you want but without bryant there would be no 3peat

 

[shoeking2101]

He is relativley overrated by many because they only compared him to Jordan when there are like at least 3 greater player from his team. He has well surpassed Iverson. Kobe is a top 25 player but he is not a top 10 all time player.

He's definitely top 10 man come on.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Another thing people forget this era when Shaq was "running" the show. Kobe was like a baby 19-22....years old and like 2-3 years in the league, just developing his NBA skills.....

while Shaq was 26-29 years old in his athletic prime. A physical specimen and 7-10 year veteran.

If you put any great player( Jordan, Magic, Bird or Lebron) at their 19-22 player development with Shaq at that time. Shaq is still" running the show."

For it to even be debatable Kobe and Shaq or Shaq and Kobe just tells you how great Kobe was and is.

Yet without this 22 year old the lakers wouldnt even be in the finals let alone win the title.

 

[shoeking2101]

Yet without this 22 year old the lakers wouldnt even be in the finals let alone win the title.

Beg to differ on this though. They would definitely be contenders minus 22 year old Kobe.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Beg to differ on this though. They would definitely be contenders minus 22 year old Kobe.

So a team with shaq, fisher, rice, horry, fox, lue, george would be a contending team? Please.. if the lakers couldnt even get past utah with a starting line up of van exel, jones, shaq, Campbell. What makes you think the lakers would be serious contenders if they couldnt get passed utah or the spurs or the blazers without kobe?

If it wasnt for kobe stepping up in game 5 in indiana against the pacers it could've been a completely different series and for all we know th3 lakers wouldve never won a title

 

[darthska]

[quote name="Mister Friendly"]Another thing people forget this era when Shaq was "running" the show. Kobe was like a baby 19-22....years old and like 2-3 years in the league, just developing his NBA skills.....

while Shaq was 26-29 years old in his athletic prime. A physical specimen and 7-10 year veteran.

If you put any great player( Jordan, Magic, Bird or Lebron) at their 19-22 player development with Shaq at that time. Shaq is still" running the show." [/quote]The reason people 'want to forget' that... is because it doesn't matter. You don't get extra points for scoring at 82 years old or at 16 years old. He doesn't get extra credit on his homework assignment for being in the finals as young as he was.

And speaking of being young and in the Finals, in his younger days, Shaq very QUICKLY turned a team around from getting the #1 pick... to the Finals. Yeah they lost, but Shaq was far more important to that Orlando Magic Finals team than Kobe was to his first championship team.[quote name="Mister Friendly"]For it to even be debatable Kobe and Shaq or Shaq and Kobe just tells you how great Kobe was and is.[/quote]It's debatable because Kobe has a fan base, and any fan base will debate anything they disagree with.

"There must be something to it if people will debate it."

The only thing that shows is... people debate.

 

[Baby Face Nelson]

Yet without this 22 year old the lakers wouldnt even be in the finals let alone win the title.

Shaq averages 38 & 17 on 61% shooting and Kobe is the reason why they beat the Pacers?? If you go back and look at the records, the Lakers had a winning record without Kobe from 96-04 compared to the losing record they had when Shaq was out of the lineup during the time period. Kobe wasn't ready to be a leader over Shaq and he's still not a leader today by any means. Shaq had this one quote that everyone envisioned except Kobe. He said, " Young Shaq, Young Kobe, Shaq's team. Older Shaq, Young Kobe, Shaq's team. Old Shaq, Older Kobe, Kobe's team. " How many rings could they of won if things panned out like that?

 

[darthska]

[quote name="TheGoldenChild"]So a team with shaq, fisher, rice, horry, fox, lue, george would be a contending team? Please.. if the lakers couldnt even get past utah with a starting line up of van exel, jones, shaq, Campbell. What makes you think the lakers would be serious contenders if they couldnt get passed utah or the spurs or the blazers without kobe?[/quote]

 

[alphawolf]

You're comapring being a rookie to a vet.. really? Which had nothing to do with on the court action. Like shaq never had to do anything lik3 that when he was a rookie. Yet an 18 year old rookie kobe is forced to bail the lakers out in the playoffs because shaq, ej and van exel couldnt get a shot off.. might have shot airballs but no other player wanted to take those shots and no other player on that roster would be in the gym the next day, working on those shots he missed the night before

By the time he was 22 he was the one that bailed the lakers out against the pacers.. when shaq was sitting on the bench and he played on a bad ankle. So say all you want but without bryant there would be no 3peat

You arguing with trolls dude. Wasting your breath.

It was well documented and reported by team members and coaches. Jim gray in summer of 98 said kobe was already better than everyone on the team. Even during a practice, jerry west said kobe was owning eddie jones. The kid who carry bag was already better than most of the team members

Both Shaquille and kobe were 50 50 on those 3 rings. Kobe actually did more than Shaquille in term of having to guard perimeter while being the main floor facilitator

 

[alphawolf]

Shaq averages 38 & 17 on 61% shooting and Kobe is the reason why they beat the Pacers?? If you go back and look at the records, the Lakers had a winning record without Kobe from 96-04 compared to the losing record they had when Shaq was out of the lineup during the time period. Kobe wasn't ready to be a leader over Shaq and he's still not a leader today by any means. Shaq had this one quote that everyone envisioned except Kobe. He said, " Young Shaq, Young Kobe, Shaq's team. Older Shaq, Young Kobe, Shaq's team. Old Shaq, Older Kobe, Kobe's team. " How many rings could they of won if things panned out like that?

Shaquille was a leader? Dude show up in camp out of shape two season in a row and was more immature than kobe despite being older.

The locker room leaders were d fish, rob, fox and B shaw.

Had Shaq not acting immature and not disrespect kobe they would have won at least 5 rings or more.

 

[darthska]

^ Phil Jackson was the leader.

Not Shaq; his role was 'most dominant'.

Not Kobe; his role was 'introverted volume shooter'.

Can't believe you even mentioned Fish, Fox, and Shaw.

But anyways, it was Phil. That was a young, super talented, hungry team... and he was a 6 time champion as a coach. He lead us.

 

[mertonhanks]

It was well documented and reported by team members and coaches. Jim gray in summer of 98 said kobe was already better than everyone on the team. Even during a practice, jerry west said kobe was owning eddie jones. The kid who carry bag was already better than most of the team members

Both Shaquille and kobe were 50 50 on those 3 rings. Kobe actually did more than Shaquille in term of having to guard perimeter while being the main floor facilitator

Well I guess since The Great Jim Gray said Kobe was better than everyone else on the Lakers, he must've been. I mean, Jim Gray is only the greatest basketball mind of all time.

Jim Gray and Kobe are BFFs, always have been, always will be. Kobe use to complain and air out laundry all day to Jim Gray, even setting up interviews to rag on Shaq. Gray came to Kobes rescue right after news of Kobe's Colorado incident aired, trying to captain save em. You Blame Shaq for the split up but it was Kobe airing out his problems to Jim Gray that started the whole Kobe/Shaq drama, making it public.

Kobe did more than Shaq? Really? Kobe was the one drawing double and triple teams? getting everyone including Kobe open shots, while getting entire rosters in foul trouble?


LOL. Guy actually brought up Jim Gray as if he had any basketball credibility whatsoever. Jim ****** Gray

 

[mister friendly]

The reason people 'want to forget' that... is because it doesn't matter. You don't get extra points for scoring at 82 years old or at 16 years old. He doesn't get extra credit on his homework assignment for being in the finals as young as he was.










To say that age in sports doesn't is well....I wanna say ret@#ed but that could be considered a flame, so lets just say its naïve to say the least.

It matters a lot...Age is why some players get drafted early or later. Age is why some players get traded or released. Age is probably why the Lakers kept Kobe over Shaq....Age is why ESPN is always having stats about whos the youngest player to do whatever accomplishment.

Age matters in sports

 

[darthska]

It matters for sentimental reasons, nothing else.

A a fan of sports, one of the things I always like to do when I'm evaluating a player is take it back to the sports that I play. I actually play basketball. A lot.

in all my years of playing pickup basketball, literally thousands of games, I have never one time saw a guy get picked because of his age. I've never heard a guy say "I mean, yeah I know he's only 12, but he's really good for being 12, so yeah, I'll get him."

the fact that the kid is 12 and can shoot like nobody's business is awesome... for sentimental reasons. But in terms of actually play basketball? Doesn't matter.

the fact that Kobe was 19, 20 years old and in the Finals? Doesn't matter in terms of basketball. His 3 pointers didn't count for 4; his assist attempts didn't get doubled if they were converted because of his age.

it's no different than using race. "Plus, along with everything else Larry Bird did, he's white."

and? That doesn't matter in terms of evaluating basketball ability.

And neither does age. it matters for sentimental reasons and for record keeping and conversation and stuff. But if two players in the same game did the exact same thing and one was 30 and one was 19, you can't say the 19 year old was better in terms of basketball because he's 19. They both did the same damn thing. Is it interesting to point out for conversation that he's 19? Yes. does he get extra points for it? No.

I think the 'age as a compliment' dynamic is one of the most ridiculous things people do in sports. It's interesting to talk about a guy getting a no hitter at an old age, or having a 40 point game before he can legally buy alcohol, but that's all it is: interesting.

 

[CP1708]

Ok Ska, please name all the 19 year old NBA players that took over an NBA Finals game, on the road, in OT, with an injured ankle, to win the game based off their play.

Please name, EVERY single 19 year old to ever do that.

Because you know, it happens alot.

19 year olds (wasn't he 20? Can we change the 19 to 20 for accuracy purposes please?)

20 year olds don't typically impact huge games that way.

Then we can also talk about Kobe's impact of game 7 vs Portland, and that famous line from Shaq who was getting HOUNDED by all the Portland bigs and being rendered uneffective, "forget about me, you guys just go" Shaq ain't carry a damn thing in the final 3-4 games of that series. Portland was containing him greatly. So how did they come back?


25, 11, 7, 4 blocks. Led the Lakers in ALL FOUR CATEGORIES. Pretty solid numbers in a game 7 don'tcha think? They was down 15, if they don't win that game, does Shaq carry the Lakers to the title that year?

So Kobe saved game 7, and then took over in the key road game of the finals, while Shaq was fouled out of the game, otherwise that series goes 2-2 and anything could happen from that point as the Pacers were starting to play better and better as the series was going on.

So tell me more guys.

 

[darthska]

Oh, Kobe definitely had some memorable games and very clutch moments in those finals that we won mainly because of Shaq and Phil, no doubt.

Operative word: 'mainly'.

That means that there were other significant players, also, and Kobe is the most significant of them all.

But the main... operative word: main (not 'only', but 'main')... reason we won those Finals overall is because of the talented mind that is Phil Jackson, and the dominating force that was Shaquille O'Neal.

 

[darthska]

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001 Finals Game 2
28 points 20 rebounds 9 assists 8 blocks - 12/19fg 4/10ft

Can I use this to suggest anything significant that I want? Like maybe to suggest that he carried the team on his back? That he had no help? Oooh, ooh... can I use this game to suggest that he won the entire NBA Finals from that 1 game?

Or does that 1 game just mean... 1 game? Meaning that it doesn't bear an overall effect on the overall dynamic of a player?

Do you know how many meaningless players have 40 point games but are nowhere near the all time scoring list? Reason being: 1 game is just a game.
The reason almost everyone says Shaq was the main player back then isn't because he almost got a quadruple double one game; it's because he was the main guy, every game, and anyone watching those games tonight could tell. Yes, there were other dynamic players, Kobe being the most dynamic of all, but the entire defense of the other team was centered around the dominant force in the middle... and then their focus was on Kobe.

 

[deuce king]

If you put any great player( Jordan, Magic, Bird or Lebron) at their 19-22 player development with Shaq at that time. Shaq is still" running the show."

We're not talking about any of those great players though, we're talking about Kobe right now.  Stick to the script.  At the end of the day, when Shaq and Kobe were together, Shaq was Batman and Kobe was Robin, Shaq was the permanent teacher and Kobe was just a substitute teacher.  Doesn't matter how old he was.

For it to even be debatable Kobe and Shaq or Shaq and Kobe just tells you how great Kobe was and is

It's NOT even debatable champ, that's just something Kobe fans say in order to try and rewrite history to try and take Kobe up a few pegs where he doesn't and shouldn't belong during that timeframe.  Shaq was number 1, and Kobe was number 2........a distant number 2 at that.

By the time he was 22 he was the one that bailed the lakers out against the pacers.. when shaq was sitting on the bench and he played on a bad ankle. So say all you want but without bryant there would be no 3peat

Kobe fans always talk about that 1 game against the Pacers, just 1.  What about the 82 games in the regular season or the rest of the games in the playoffs??  That's all that folks that want to defend Kobe talk about, that 1 game as if nothing else was before that or even after that.  Kobe did his job, no doubt about it, but let's talk about the guy that truly brought them to that point. 

Yet without this 22 year old the lakers wouldnt even be in the finals let alone win the title

Kobe's lack of a regular season MVP trophy or lack of a Finals MVP trophy during that run say differently champ. 

If it wasnt for kobe stepping up in game 5 in indiana against the pacers it could've been a completely different series and for all we know th3 lakers wouldve never won a title

Again, that's 1 game.  What about the regular season, all 82 games or the rest of the games in the playoffs?  That's all Kobe fans can muster up is 1 game, which says alot.

Both Shaquille and kobe were 50 50 on those 3 rings.

LOL @ 50/50.........more like 75/25 in Shaq's favor. Maybe even 80/20 but I'm trying to be generous to the Kobe fans out there and not crush your false reality completely.  To put this in current terms, Shaq was the breadwinner and Kobe was the stay at home mom.  Nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom, but Shaq was bringing in the money and paying the bills. 

Dude show up in camp out of shape two season in a row and was more immature than kobe despite being older.

.....and Shaq STILL put up better numbers than Kobe.

Phil Jackson was the leader.

Not Shaq; his role was 'most dominant'.

Not Kobe; his role was 'introverted volume shooter'.

100% Truth.

 

[100027]

I'm a neutral party on this one. Hated the Lakers then, probably like Kobe a little more than Shaq today and DO think he's one of the greatest of all time.

But that first 3peat team was CLEARLY Shaq's team, and it wasn't 50-50. The entire reign was built on his dominance in the post.

Edit: this is really well said-
Phil Jackson was the leader.

Not Shaq; his role was 'most dominant'.

Not Kobe; his role was 'introverted volume shooter'.