IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

Ska for President!



CP1708 said:
You keep saying this year that you love THIS Kobe, dishing and diming, etc. But you miss the entire point, that's not HIS job. HIS job, is to be one of the best scorers in the history of the NBA.
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this right here is everything wrong with Kobe fans (and fans of this style of play) summed up in 3 sentences.

save your keystrokes Ska, clowns like CP simply, will not. get. it.

its astonishing to me how obvious it is that the analogy Ska drew out goes completely over their heads.

wow.
 
Ska, you just claimed that I said Kobe's style is the reason we've won.

I typed a book saying that style(s) have NOTHING to do with it. I supported that using Nash, Kidd, CP3, and Rondo. 4 PG's with similar makeups, but different strengths getting there.

I said there were several other factors to winning. Style got nothin to do with it.

And you come back with I claimed Kobe's style is the reason of our success? Where did I say that?

Pretty sure that I said Kobe does his job and does it very well, but can also adapt to do what his coach has him do. But his main job has always been offensive scorer. Which is pretty much the case.

But I claimed style, apparently. Even tho I said a complete no to style. :{

You also know very well my thoughts on Phil Jackson, not a single second in this lifetime would I not give him credit, but that man won with MJ/Kobe and basically no true PG. Ask yourself why that is, then ask yourself why Phil put faith in MJ/Kobe over a Jason Kidd type player. Phil seems like kind of a smart person to ask, but you don't believe in listening to experts in their field. So Phil's track record probably means nothing. BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper and D Fish were his chosen PG's. Never even tried to upgrade them outside one year, 2004 and Payton was catching tons of Heat when we were down 2-0 to San Antonio. Phil never ever ever cared or wanted a true PG. System maybe (triangle) but not style.
 
CP1708 said:
As an example, Deuce brought up multiple MVP's. Kobe only has 1. Someone mentioned Nash. I can do even better than that, Moses Malone. Moses has 3 MVP's, he won a title, points, rebounds, all kinds of stuff. We're 173 pages in, and I'm the first person to even say his name. And again, Moses, has 3, the logo of the NBA Jerry West has 0, Shaq has 1, Dream has 1, Wilt has 1 and Kobe has 1. So, is Moses better than all of them? Why?
So if you say no, just having 3 MVP's and 1 title is not enough, Shaq/Wilt etc have other stuff, then what counts, and what doesn't count?

 
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Please go back and re-read what I said.  I said look at the FULL resume of everyone. 
 
Deuce, I'm not bashing you there, I was using what you brought up as an example. I did not mean to say that you claimed MVP's to be the be all end all, just that it was a point you brought up.

Others used Finals MVP's. Still others brought up stats as a main point. All NBA, all star selections, etc. Which is what I was asking, what criteria does everyone use overall? I don't think everyone uses the same.

I used your example of MVP's. If you mentioned full body of work, then you and I were on the same page there.
 
[quote name="seasoned vet"]Ska for President!



[quote name="CP"]You keep saying this year that you love THIS Kobe, dishing and diming, etc. But you miss the entire point, that's not HIS job. HIS job, is to be one of the best scorers in the history of the NBA.[/quote]this right here is everything wrong with Kobe fans (and fans of this style of play) summed up in 3 sentences.

save your keystrokes Ska, clowns like CP simply, will not. get. it.[/quote]No, people like CP or Nako or manup will most likely never get the perspective you and I have... but that doesn't make them clowns. Just makes their opinion different than ours.
 
CP, gonna go back&reread yesterday's novel. :lol Apparently I misunderstood something.
 
DarthSka said:
No, people like CP or Nako or manup will most likely never get the perspective you and I have... but that doesn't make them clowns. Just makes their opinion different than ours.
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thats not what makes CP a clown though (difference of opinion).

notice, ive never said one word to Nako or about Nako.

why?
because Nako isnt silly enough tp proclaim his opinion as fact, slam his opinionated gavel down and proclaim it is the way he says it is because HE said it. all while missing the point of the other person completely.

thats why i mock CP the way i do.
 
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DarthSka said:
CP, gonna go back&reread yesterday's novel. :lol Apparently I misunderstood something.
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Shouldn't take you too long. :o :lol

Not my fault man, you and sea had like 8-10 posts back to back to back, I was trying to reply to alot of that material, you guys made me type all that. :lol

Hey, btw, I forgot to include that thing I told you about a couple months ago, the whole Shaq not giving the team over to Kobe, Kobe giving the team over to Dwight soon angle. Remember that? 8o I forgot to bring all that in, in terms of doing what's best for the franchise.

Also forgot to mention him passing on getting the scoring title that last game vs the Kings, he chose to rest instead, you once brought up with Kobe and Magic how Kobe only led the league in scoring twice, so he wasn't as good at his job as Magic, but Kobe did things like that to get rest, and benefit the longterm goal of winning, moreso than getting a meaningless scoring title.

If I would have remembered those things, that post would really have gotten long. :rollin :lol
 
:lol

Ska and I done this for years tho. We see things different, but want the same goal, just have different views on how things get there is all. And he's one of the few that has actual claims, and support to those claims whereas a lot of people in here hate and bounce. They don't add anything and just cause people to go sideways with more over the top ammo, like pics of Kobe dunking and such. That's just bickering.

What Ska and I are doing is............typing a lot. :lol :hat
 
CP1708 said:
Deuce, I'm not bashing you there, I was using what you brought up as an example. I did not mean to say that you claimed MVP's to be the be all end all, just that it was a point you brought up.

Others used Finals MVP's. Still others brought up stats as a main point. All NBA, all star selections, etc. Which is what I was asking, what criteria does everyone use overall? I don't think everyone uses the same.

I used your example of MVP's. If you mentioned full body of work, then you and I were on the same page there.
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No doubt.  
 
DarthSka said:
sea manup: iverson didn't lead a scrub team to the finals, first off. like someone mentioned before, kobe has had the fortune of playing with another top position player almost his whole career, and of course we all know MJ had Pippen, one of the 50 greatest. give Iverson a DPOY, and he goes to the finals. I don't call that 'his style of play leading a team of scrubs to the finals', and putting it that way is missguided, in my opinion. it was 'whatever style you want to call that', plus another solid player, plus a bunch of scrubs. We had 'whatever style you want to call that', plus one of the most dominant players ever (which is obviously better than their 'another solid player'), plus some other decent guys, plus some scrubs. result: 4-1

second, Tracy and CP3 play nothing alike, so saying "he did this while this other guy did that" is not comparing similarities.

and when I'm talking about similarities and factors, just to review, I'm talking about all of these very important things:
- talent; example, JR Smith plays whatever style we're saying MJ and and Iverson and Kobe play, but he's nowhere near as talented

- supporting cast; the easy thing to do when talking about this is to mention teammates, but that's not all there is to it. Front office, sideline coaching staff, trainers... and teammates.

- work ethic; this is obviously something that can be credited to the player, absolutely

- style of play

you guys keep coming with these narrow minded responses that consistently fail  to take ALL of those things into account.
CP: no, my opinion is not what matters. yes, life is about results. However, saying that something is successful w/o examining all other factors that go into it and thinking it's just because of one thing is absolutely narrow minded and short sighted. Sometimes, could be borderline superstitious. "we won because of my lucky socks!" of course, someone saying that in jest is one thing, but if someone were actually saying that, how would you refute what they were saying if everytime we won, they were indeed wearing those lucky socks? You would bring other factors into it. "ummmm... have you ever stopped and considered that we won because our team is playing extremely well right now and we have an awesome coach?" You'd mention factors OTHER than the one someone is crediting for being THE reason.

but I feel like you (and others) are refusing to do that here. "No! We won because of this one thing: Kobe's style. Period."

what about the fact that other people who have a very similar style not only don't have championships, but aren't even close to the same level of success? if his style wins, how come it doesn't translate to other people who have a very similar style?

I'm obviously contending that the credit isn't his style, but many other factors. and those other players who play with that similar style, but lack those other factors... BAM, lack of success.

but I do want to say something else on one of the points that you made: you mentioned the possibility of Kidd having to do the bulk of the scoring when Shaq went down. Yes, it's rather convenient when Big Fella goes down to have such a capable scorer as Kobe, but if you think Phil would have turned to Kidd and said "Okay, you need to score in bunches and bunches and bunches now", you haven't paid attention to Phil, or Kidd, at all. there would have been another solution for Phil.


also, the whole analogy about magical shoelaces completely went over your head, I think. Well, not completely... But I don't think you grasped it fully, as evidenced by the fact that you were quick to point out Kidd's failures despite having magical shoelaces. Kidd has never had magical shoelaces, because I was equating that to Kobe's style of play... Which obviously is far different than Kidd's. Instead of trying to correct where I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, I'll just start over.

Kobe's style (ST). You say that ST is the reason for our success. I contend that it's not ST, but possibly the supporting cast (SC), talent/ability (TA), and work ethic (WE). You insist that it's just the ST.

I point out that when you are without WE, SC, & TA... but still have ST... you have experienced failure. I'm saying that maybe the ST is not the reason for the precious success.

I point out that other players who have a very similar ST have also experienced very limited success, but they are ALSO without WE, SC, & TA. maybe it's not ST.

so basically...
ST + WE + SC + TA = success
ST... all alone = failure

What about the possibility of teams that have no no one who plays w/ that ST, but do have someone who has the WE, SC, and TA? Just a different ST. Does WE + SC + TA = success, even if there's no one with that ST?

Why yes, yes it absolutely DOES yield successful results. Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, 90s Rockets... all successful w/o someone who has that same style of play, but there were people who had a high talent level and work ethic, and a strong supporting cast (which, again, is not limited to just teammates, the easy thing to point to).

Kidd never had the magical shoelaces... what I was equating to Kobe's style of play. you would say " nope kama he's never had Kobe style of play, and that's why his resume pales in comparison" and I would say... again... that while he has never had that style of play, he has also not had the luxury of (playing for a FO as committed to winning as us, or a single teammate as dominant as Shaq or as talented as Pau) for the bulk of his career. yes, he played under Mark Cuban and had Penny and Vince and Dirk... but they are not on Mitch's and Buss' and Shaq's and Phil's level, and he hasn't had a long stretch with any of them.

he doesn't have the ST, but also haven't had near as good of a SC. strong WE and TA, though, and thats were I would credit his success, despite not having the same ST you would contend might make him more successful. I would contend if he had the same WE and TA but a much more similar SC, the results would be a lot more similar.
Mister Friendly: no, it's not right or wrong how a certain player plays, but we're not talking about ethics or morality, which is what 'right/wrong' is about. we're talking about preferences and standards..
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i still think we are misunderstanding each other, i know that to win a championship you need work ethic, skill, good teammates, a good coach, luck. i agree with everything you said about the many factors you have written about. what i dont agree with is your claim that one style of play is better than the next style of play. thats it. i didnt address the many other parts of your posts because i dont have a problem with that stuff, i only have a problem with that one point. which is why im focusing on it in my posts.

but the tmac cp3 example is just comparing one player with kobe's style of play (tmac) to someone with a little closer to magic's style of play, and saying that when they are placed on a team that is not build to contend for a championship, neither style of play is able to take their respective teams to the next level. just like how iverson and kidd had two very different styles of play but because their supporting cast was not good enough (maybe not all scrubs, but we can all agree that the supporting cast was not good enough for a championship) ended up only making it to the finals and losing, two different styles of play same-ish result. just like kobe and magic, two different styles of play but you put them on teams with great players and great role players and boom 5 championships. i understand that there are a million other variables in this championship equation, but i just dont think that one style of play is better than the other.

i dont mean that kobe/mj's style is the main reason they won all those championships. i actually think style is one of the least important out of the factors listed, i just dont agree with your statement that when magic or shaq won it was because of their style, but when kobe wins its because of all the other factors and has little to do with his style. we are arguing the same thing, you think im saying that kobe's style is the main reason we won the last two championships but what im trying to say is when comparing two players of the same skill level, there is no significant difference between what styles they use when playing the game of basketball. if you said something like "kobe's style is not the only way to win, there have been many other great players using other styles that have also been successful" then i would agree with you, but you said that "not only is kobe's style not the only way to win, but styles XY and Z are all better when you want to be successful" which i dont agree with. 
 
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I find that the people that say:

"Steve Nash has 2 MVPs! Steve Nash > Kobe?!?!"

Are the same people that won't acknowledge the:

"Robert Horry has 7 rings! Horry > Kobe!?!?"

Arguments.

How do you ignore his only 1 MVP trophy despite supposedly being a "top player" all these years?

How do you ignore his only 2 finals MVPs despite being in the finals so many times in the past 14 years?

How do you ignore his only 2 scoring titles despite leading the league in attempts for most of the past decade?

If Iverson is Bubba Chuck, Kobe is Chuck God.
 
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CP:

You said I credit Kidd for doing whatever it takes to win. I doubt I said that, because I hate hearing it... and here's why.

You DID credit Kobe for doing whatever it takes to win. Mentioned times he was moved to the 3 or even 4, asked to take on scoring loads, being a rookie yet sliding in for seasoned veterans, playing w/ all kinds of injuries, all kinds of stuff. But... "can be asked to do EVERY job on the court"?

Really?

Listen, your response to what I'm about to say is most likely going to be that I'm taking your words too literally... but taking a word ('overrated') literally is exactly what is at the core of this thread's every argument. Yes, we're taking each other's words seriously.

So... "can be asked to do EVERY job on the court"? he can be asked to go an extended length of time sacrificing scoring for passing? No, no... I'm not talking about scoring going down to like 17 - 20, and assists going up to like a dozen. I'm talking about maybe a couple shots per quarter... maybe none sometimes... and at least a half dozen pass attempts per quarter. Yes, I know he played close to that like a month ago, averaging damn near a trip-dub for a couple weeks. I'm talking about an extended length of time, though. he could do that for a couple months, maybe like half a season, maybe a whole season? no way, man.

"Can be asked to do EVERY job on the court"? EVERY job? he can go an extended length of time at the 5? Or playing against a strong 4 (Duncan, Love, BG32)? Not a couple sets, which I'm sure there are examples of. Not a game... which I'm sure there's an example or two of. An extended length of time. No way.

"Well Kidd or Rondo or Nash can't, either."

But I never said ______ does whatever it takes, or can be asked to do anything on the court. I hate that phrase/notion. :lol I never said that about Kidd, because it's not true for him, and it's not true for Kobe, either.

Next up: "it's not his job" *facepalm* Simply put: yes, it is. Two things are the job of everyone on the floor: rebounding and passing. Passing doesn't always equate to assists, which is one of the reasons I hate using raw stats to tell a story. And I'm not saying Kobe doesn't pass; I'm arguing the notion that it's not his job. Yes, it absolutely is; it's the job of everyone on the floor.

Interesting, though, that Kobe is relieved of passing responsibilities because "it's not his job" as a 2, but the fact that Kidd can't score like Kobe despite being a 1, that's seen as a detriment.

so a 2 not passing = "Not his job"
but a 1 not scoring = "Limited a** offensive skill set."

Moving on: "Kobe only has 2 scoring titles to Magic's 4 assist titles... but Kobe sacrifices scoring for the greater good." Bolshevik. Malarky. Hogwash. Tales of mallard. You & I both know that he has not done that his entire career. lettuce be cereal. yes, I was completely shocked that he deferred the scoring title to Durant last year, and I completely appreciate his sacrifice in scoring for the jump in assists this year, NO DOUBT, but his whole career? nah, man.

and while I appreciate Kobe kind of ushering the franchise keys to Dwight's directions while Shaq completely opposed the keys to the franchise being handed to Kobe, the situations are a little different, no? shaq and kobe feuded about this while it was clearly evident that they both still had a lot of mileage left on them. Kobe right now, while still highly effective, it's clear that he's on his last legs. I definitely appreciate his maturity in this version of passing the torch, but it's definitely a little different than what was going on w/ him & Shaq.

and now that's twice I've said I appreciate something about Kobe, and I was talking about something from this year both times. the two things that I have talked about appreciating from him this year are absolutely not things that he has done his whole career; focusing on making sure others get their points while he also gets his, and making the other star feel important, needed, and cognizant that he's next. he has been both a scoring facilitator and a subservient leader.
 
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Dammit, now I have to go back and reply to manup's latest. :lol

solid points. will respond later, prob after championship tonight.
 
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quik1987 said:
I find that the people that say:

"Steve Nash has 2 MVPs! Steve Nash > Kobe?!?!"

Are the same people that won't acknowledge the:

"Robert Horry has 7 rings! Horry > Kobe!?!?"

Arguments.

How do you ignore his only 1 MVP trophy despite supposedly being a "top player" all these years?

How do you ignore his only 2 finals MVPs despite being in the finals so many times in the past 14 years?

How do you ignore his only 2 scoring titles despite leading the league in attempts for most of the past decade?

If Iverson is Bubba Chuck, Kobe is Chuck God.
Click to expand...

Lets make this simple

To answer your questions.

Who are we comparing him to?

Since to be overrated, we have rate him against someone else.

Otherwise it just breaks down to the "why I hate Kobe Bryant" thread
 
Mister Friendly said:
quik1987 said:
I find that the people that say:

"Steve Nash has 2 MVPs! Steve Nash > Kobe?!?!"

Are the same people that won't acknowledge the:

"Robert Horry has 7 rings! Horry > Kobe!?!?"

Arguments.

How do you ignore his only 1 MVP trophy despite supposedly being a "top player" all these years?

How do you ignore his only 2 finals MVPs despite being in the finals so many times in the past 14 years?

How do you ignore his only 2 scoring titles despite leading the league in attempts for most of the past decade?

If Iverson is Bubba Chuck, Kobe is Chuck God.
Click to expand...

Lets make this simple

To answer your questions.

Who are we comparing him to?

Since to be overrated, we have rate him against someone else.

Otherwise it just breaks down to the "why I hate Kobe Bryant" thread
Click to expand...

All-time greats

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem etc
 
Ok, I may have worded you incorrectly. I see your point do "anything to win" being literal makes no sense. Shaq guarding PG's, Kobe defending 7 footers, I should have said anything within their powers, which in Kobe's case is considerable as he has more God given ability than someone like Kidd.

Alas, that's not what I was getting to, I should have used the words you did with Metta, "things that don't always show up". In terms of doing "whatever it takes to win". :lol Does that make a little more sense to how you have spoken on Kidd/Artest in the past? You praise their hustle, quick hands, deflections, realitive irritants on the court, etc to their overall usefulness, not just stats they put up. You follow me better with that? You speak highly of those traits for THEM, and ignore what Kobe does similarly to that. That moreso make sense?

My comparison on Kobe passing, and Kidd scoring stands, Kobe CAN pass, but doesn't as his job is other things. (scoring)
Kidd CAN NOT take over a game offensively outside of his passing. He's not droppin 20 in a quarter, ever. He won't put 30 up in a half to comeback, or get a big lead, or whatever, he does not possess that skillset.
Kobe CAN drop dimes, he COULD do so, you know he's always had the ability to be a solid passer. He knows the angles, he puts the ball in the right spot, he can pass with his left hand (perfect example yesterday) He can do it. Kidd, can not. I wasn't praising Kobe for doing his job and knocking Kidd for not doing his, Kidd can't do it. You can't argue and say that Kidd can, you know damn well you'd be fibbing.

The scoring title stuff, eh, that sacrafice is different. Kobe played his early career with Shaq, he wins more scoring titles without Shaq, but probably fewer actual titles, so I'm sure he's just fine where he's at. The point was moreso so and so does their job better than another, when doing THAT job would require additional features, such as someone else not also scoring 30 points. (which btw, look up the amount of times 2 players on the same team scored 30 in a season, it's a real lonely list, but Shaq and Kobe did it) Which also speaks to my point about the other players on the roster having NO offensive games to speak of back then. Fox, Fish, Horry, Shaw, George needed barely get 25 points amongst them, and that would be enough on a lot of nights. Heavy workload for 2 guys, but it worked for a couple years. But bottom line, I don't care at all about scoring titles. Points are fine, and win the game in a big picture sort of way, but scoring titles mean jack to me. I eye a bigger prize, I only mentioned because of your Magic led __ vs Kobe led __ amounts of times, that's all.


I hear you're point as he's leaving the team, but in his prime, that's not what was needed from him. You or I can't name or put a price on what he did for the club on or off the court leadership wise. Even as a weird dude, quiet dude, etc, his work ethic, knowledge, teaching on the court, tough love, push when needing, demanding, etc is not something we can numerically base. Those things that don't show up in stats sheets if you will. YOU may not enjoy that leadership, but maybe Ariza did. Maybe Pau did. Pau was pretty soft in Memphis. He seemed to toughen up a bit in LA, no? Maybe Kobe helped that?
What everyone say about Dwight? He gotta stop laughing, he gotta get serious. Who did they expect to help him with that? The grouchy old serious guy. Maybe Dwight will learn it, maybe he won't. We'll see. But nobody was sendin Dwight to Pau to get serious, or Ron, or Nash. How do you place a value on what Kobe does off the court? Remember Kobe saying he needs to play thru pain a lil bit? Dwight wasn't on board with that at first. Few days later, Kobe and Dwight tweet a pic of them fake boxing in the lockeroom. Sort of Kobe pushing when needed, maybe backing off when needed. Maybe it was nothing at all. How do you quantify it?

Iono, lot of it might be BS, but on the court, people praise one type of leader, KG, Bron, but they each got completely different ways of going about it. Don't Kobe get some credit for that role, his way, too?
 
Just curious, depending how the rest of this season plays out...

How do these individual resumes compare

2× NBA Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player
2× NBA scoring champion
11× All-NBA First Team
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team

2x NBA Finals MVP
4× NBA Most Valuable Player
NBA Rookie of the Year
1x NBA scoring champion
7× All-NBA First Team
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team
 
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