Is Kobe Bryant Currently The Third Best Player In League?

[outacontrol music]

23 > 24

 

[hybridsoldier23]

Originally Posted by outacontrol music

23 > 24

Yeah the real #23...

 

[fro b giant]

Never said Kobe won the ring alone that's just silly.




Anytime anyone wins there will be reasons the other team failed to take advantage of opportunities, no discredit to the winner.




It's an opinion of yours that Lebron is better, mine is not the same. I have a supporting argument, yours is that you can't use the past even if it was last season as supporting argument for my point. However if the shoe was on the other foot you best believe that same argument would be used against Kobe.




I have highlighted more than just the past as to why Kobe is #1 in previous posts it's not my fault you haven't seen them or chose to not read them. I refuse to keep posting them over and over because people like you will find a way to say don't use that as criteria use what benefits my argument.




Had Jordan compiled all the stats he did but just never won a ring I am 100% sure that all these people wouldn't be saying he was the best player to play the game so you tell me how much value championships have...




Oh but they only take on meaning for players like Jordan not Kobe, you need to use a different argument that supports my opinion. Believe me if/when Lebron wins a championship people will be using that as reason why he's the best but not till then because it doesn't support their argument right...

 

[infyrno23]

Lebron can not be the best cuz he hasnt won ANYTHING!!!!!
How do ya'll not understand that?

Only way Lebron can be the best in the L is either... Kobe Bryant COMPLETLY FALLS OFF..... or he beats Kobe Bryant in the Finals....
other wise this is a non serious conversation

what happen to "To be the man you have to beat the man"  "To take a throne you have to beat the one on top of it"

4 > 0   period.

and btw Michael jordan isnt considered the GOAT because of his stats..... 6 RINGS!!!!!!!  Championship dominance!!!!!  

 

[i nasmatic i]

Ellis better than LeBron?

While Rolling Stone recently declared Kevin Durant(notes) better than Kobe Bryant(notes), Warriors guard Monta Ellis(notes) has his own opinion on who should be ranked as the NBA’s three best players.

“I’m going to say LeBron James(notes) [third],

 

[blowdawhistle]

I just hope that the finals is Cavs vs Lakers, so they can settle this argument on the court...

I already see it now though...watch the Lakers win, but Lebron will have better stats than Lebron fans will be like "Lebron is still the best look at his numbers you can't blame him bla bla bla" or they'll use the "kobe has a better team" excuse...

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

You bring up good points CP. I already addressed your Hill and Stackhouse scenario earlier back, but I won't dwell on the young Mike and Magic scenario you brought up. I'm not old like you so I'll take a pass.

You mentioned seeing things in all angles which is good, but LeBron has been pretty consistent in having the best overall stats in the game for half a decade now. You also bring up injuries. I think the injuries argument only helps Kobe, but it does not make LeBron worse because he hasn't done what Kobe has. Lets give LeBron an opportunity first before we judge him. Doesn't LeBron have a short track record of being injured too? Like you said, lets look at things from the past and future. We can't say LeBron can't play hurt just because in his only opportunity this year, he didn't play. He still has time to either prove you wrong or right. But yes, the injury argument is a + for Kobe, but it is not a - for LeBron. He needs more injuries I guess...

I'll ignore the part about Kobe playing better even when he got older this year. Once again, + to Kobe, but that doesn't affect LeBron's overall play as we are trying to compare the two players. Technically, since LeBron is young still and Kobe is old, this argument doesn't even apply because we would be criticizing LeBron for not being old and good like Kobe.

Who should have the ball on the line is very subjective. I know 99% of the people would choose Kobe because of his reputation, but being clutch is just one category to use in an argument for Kobe. And it's not like LeBron is weak and passive in the clutch now.

It will be hard to summarize the + and - for each player and then weight each category objectively. It is a never ending story I guess. But just saying though, some of the more subjective reasoning is from the Kobe camp. Stats don't lie for the most part.

RIGHT, he hasn't proven anything, wrong or right. He hasn't proven he can win a championship even though he got to the Finals, well let's give him the benefit of the doubt and give him 6 chances like Kobe's had.



That's fine, until then he's not the best. If we are giving someone a chance to prove us WRONG we are going to give them a chance to PROVE us RIGHT too, until then you can't say he is or isn't the best because he hasn't PROVEN anything yet!

Why are you replying for CP when I already addressed your earlier post? Please take time to respond to that one. (Had to change your font color...)

And I was talking about playing great while being injured. The heck does your response gotta do with that. SMH.

Sidebar, winning rings is not the only factor why MJ is considered the best ever in the game. We all know MJ was great and dominate overall and that should be weighted more than his rings. Or else we can give an unfair advantage to Robert Horry because he has even more rings, but average stats at best.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by I NaSmatic I

Ellis better than LeBron?

While Rolling Stone recently declared Kevin Durant(notes) better than Kobe Bryant(notes), Warriors guard Monta Ellis(notes) has his own opinion on who should be ranked as the NBA’s three best players.

“I’m going to say LeBron James(notes) [third],

 

[CP1708]

 Monta's got jokes. 

However, this did strike me with something.  Few weeks back, SI ran a poll about the toughest defenders in the league.  Artest was 1, Kobe was #2.  Earlier in the season, maybe a month or so, they ran a similar poll, most overrated players in the league.  LeBron James had 3%.  Not even one vote mentioned Kobe. 

So while Monta was kidding, should we take players opinions into consideration?  Why are there players that believe Bron is overhyped?  Why is Kobe paid that respect of being a top shelf defender, even while NT analysts insist that he sucks and Bron is some elite defender now? 

I suppose people can say they are jealous and all that, so what, they aren't jealous of Kobe too? 

  Besides, Bron is supposed to be the friendlier of the two, the guy that everyone wants to hang out with, be around and what not.  So why would players diss him, and not the guy that is a prick to them? 

Just another angle to look at/consider. 

I agree with the guy that said I hope the Lakers and Cavs meet, so we can settle it all on the court.  If Bron won that, I wouldn't have any trouble saying torch passed.  But if Kobe wins that title, how a Bron fan could keep arguing would be beyond me.  But that's for another day. 

 

[i nasmatic i]

http://www.youtube.com/v/_HeKnaqn4fA&hl=en_US&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/_HeKnaqn4fA&hl=en_US&fs=1&

LeBron's going to smack the ball into Monta's face next time.

 

[bhzmafia14]

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Originally Posted by bhzmafia14

Originally Posted by youngjordan23


This durant suckage is really starting to piss me off like really

. how does a guy who putting up 29 for a 5th seed surpass the career of D-Wade, Melo, and Kobe, chris paul, hell even Bosh

And people wonder why I say the things I say. Durant is a great ball player, but it doesn't make sense how people ride him and make him out to be more than what he really is.

I know people like him because of his good/humble personality, but he's just in his 3rd year.

He's leading his team to somewhere between the 5th-8th seed in the West. He's not the first guy to do that at a young age. Hell, Wade led the Heat to the playoffs in his rookie season. KD is carrying his team, but its not his roster looks like the Orlando roster from the T-Mac days. He does have another guy in Westbrook and guys like Green and Harden that can step up and score 20+ on some nights.

Just give it time, Durant will have his shine in this league, but put the pipe down immediately.

you say crap like

Rudy gay is better then KD
Oj Mayo has more upside then KD
young will be better then KD

so because some people hype up KD more then they should you say off the wall crap like that? OKKKKKKK

Tell when I said Rudy Gay is better? I said Rudy has the tools to be better or just as good.

I never said OJ had more upside than KD. I was the one on here saying OJ's potential is around Mitch Richmond's career. You got me confused with the other people in that OJ thread.

And I said Thad has the chance to be an all-star in the league. I will stick by that as long as he can get in the right system.

So, yes I still say the things I say because people hype up KD too much at this point in time.

/rant

 

[flight23air]

God  I hate the Lakers but Kobe is the best imo.  For me he's the guy I want to make the play in crunch time.  Although Lebron seems like he's going to pass everyone. 

Kobe just earned alot of respect from putting so many good years of work.  And he wins chips.   Kobe is still the man. 

 

[51and3rd]

Originally Posted by Infyrno23


Lebron can not be the best cuz he hasnt won ANYTHING!!!!!
How do ya'll not understand that?

Only way Lebron can be the best in the L is either... Kobe Bryant COMPLETLY FALLS OFF..... or he beats Kobe Bryant in the Finals....
other wise this is a non serious conversation

what happen to "To be the man you have to beat the man"  "To take a throne you have to beat the one on top of it"

4 > 0   period.

and btw Michael jordan isnt considered the GOAT because of his stats..... 6 RINGS!!!!!!!  Championship dominance!!!!!  

Exactly... stats expire when the season is over.... rings are FOREVER! Bron gotta wait for Kobe to pass him the tourch, he just aint bout to take it lol.

 

[menacin methods]

Originally Posted by bhzmafia14

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Originally Posted by bhzmafia14

Originally Posted by youngjordan23


This durant suckage is really starting to piss me off like really

. how does a guy who putting up 29 for a 5th seed surpass the career of D-Wade, Melo, and Kobe, chris paul, hell even Bosh

And people wonder why I say the things I say. Durant is a great ball player, but it doesn't make sense how people ride him and make him out to be more than what he really is.

I know people like him because of his good/humble personality, but he's just in his 3rd year.

He's leading his team to somewhere between the 5th-8th seed in the West. He's not the first guy to do that at a young age. Hell, Wade led the Heat to the playoffs in his rookie season. KD is carrying his team, but its not his roster looks like the Orlando roster from the T-Mac days. He does have another guy in Westbrook and guys like Green and Harden that can step up and score 20+ on some nights.

Just give it time, Durant will have his shine in this league, but put the pipe down immediately.

you say crap like

Rudy gay is better then KD
Oj Mayo has more upside then KD
young will be better then KD

so because some people hype up KD more then they should you say off the wall crap like that? OKKKKKKK

Tell when I said Rudy Gay is better? I said Rudy has the tools to be better or just as good.

I never said OJ had more upside than KD. I was the one on here saying OJ's potential is around Mitch Richmond's career. You got me confused with the other people in that OJ thread.

And I said Thad has the chance to be an all-star in the league. I will stick by that as long as he can get in the right system.

So, yes I still say the things I say because people hype up KD too much at this point in time.

/rant

This.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by CP1708

 Monta's got jokes. 

However, this did strike me with something.  Few weeks back, SI ran a poll about the toughest defenders in the league.  Artest was 1, Kobe was #2.  Earlier in the season, maybe a month or so, they ran a similar poll, most overrated players in the league.  LeBron James had 3%.  Not even one vote mentioned Kobe. 

So while Monta was kidding, should we take players opinions into consideration?  Why are there players that believe Bron is overhyped?  Why is Kobe paid that respect of being a top shelf defender, even while NT analysts insist that he sucks and Bron is some elite defender now? 

I suppose people can say they are jealous and all that, so what, they aren't jealous of Kobe too? 

  Besides, Bron is supposed to be the friendlier of the two, the guy that everyone wants to hang out with, be around and what not.  So why would players diss him, and not the guy that is a prick to them? 

Just another angle to look at/consider. 

I agree with the guy that said I hope the Lakers and Cavs meet, so we can settle it all on the court.  If Bron won that, I wouldn't have any trouble saying torch passed.  But if Kobe wins that title, how a Bron fan could keep arguing would be beyond me.  But that's for another day. 

LOL. I mean there is this poll too:

and this one:

"WHO IS THE DIRTIEST PLAYER IN THE NBA?
Reggie Evans, Raptors F 21%

Ron Artest, Lakers F 13%

Andres Nocioni, Kings F 6%

Anderson Varejao, Cavs C 5%

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G 4%

Kobe win here though:
[h1]The poll: Asking NBA players who is the most difficult player to guard [/h1]
Read more: http://newsok.com/the-poll-asking-n...rticle/3447851?custom_click=rss#ixzz0jKBh1NYS


Shane Battier: Kobe Bryant

Carlos Boozer: Dirk Nowitzki

Marcus Camby: Shaquille O’Neal

Nick Collison: Dirk Nowitzki

Kevin Durant: Ben Gordon

Derek Fisher: John Stockton

Rudy Gay: Kobe Bryant

Joey Graham: Dwyane Wade

Danny Granger: LeBron James

Jeff Green: Kobe Bryant

James Harden: LeBron James

Grant Hill: Michael Jordan

Dwight Howard: Shaquille O’Neal

Andre Iguodala: LeBron James

Brandon Jennings: Steve Nash

Joe Johnson: Ray Allen

David Lee: Dirk Nowitzki

Kevin Love: Dwight Howard

O.J. Mayo: Kevin Durant

Steve Nash: Kobe Bryant

Joakim Noah: Yao Ming

Dirk Nowitzki: Kobe Bryant

Brandon Roy: Kobe Bryant

Derek Rose: LeBron James

Thabo Sefolosha: Chris Paul

Dwyane Wade: Kobe Bryant

David West: Dirk Nowitzki

Deron Williams: Kobe Bryant

Mo Williams: Chris Paul

I personally only see these polls as entertainment. Fisher saying Stockon is hardest to guard? Come on now, dude should have said the whole league of PGs.

 

[mister friendly]

Seriously why don't we just have a sticked Kobe vs Lebron thread?

 

[letitshine24]

Kobe has been the greatest player of the past decade and will be for the next few years. his ability to give teams " what is he gonna do tonight" feeling scares any team. his clutchness will never be outperformed. lebron? get that doo doo out of here. lebron is good. wait no, he is VERY good. but his ability to defend, his ability to come up when its needed most, and leadership will be inferior to kobe until kobe retires. DURANT!? dude has been in the league for 3 years, hasnt done anything worth comparing to kobe.

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

I have said everything a person can say as to why Kobe is the best and all the people for Lebron and just reverting back to stats and can't provide anything else but that. So if you keep saying Lebron is the best then at least give some evidence as to why you think that and stop saying the stats. There is more to being the best than stats ask Wilt about that.

Alright. You first mentioned that Kobe possessed better skills mentally and physically to be the best player. Quite a subjective opinion imo. How exactly are you backing up that statement without using stats? Stats like how many game winners Kobe has made and how many points he scores in the 4th when it matters. Or how he has shown how strong he is by playing hurt the past couple of seasons. Have to use stats to quantify how many games he has played hurt right? I agree that Kobe might be mentally stronger than LeBron, but LeBron is no longer the same player that was looking to pass in the clutch anymore too. And LeBron is for sure on Kobe's level and probably higher physically.

You even mentioned that Kobe didn't get the best player tag when he was leading the league in stats. Just what year are you talking about that he was leading the league in stats? Being a T-Mac fan, you know I can easily state the countless times that T-Mac's stats have been better than Kobe's in the early 00's. Then we have to insert LeBron in the convo in the mid 00's. Are you referring to the 05-06 season when Kobe was getting 35 points a game, but LeBron was getting 31 himself with better overall stats besides FT%?

You then mentioned how rings were really important. Technically, another stat we have to count, but I thought like most people have tried to say, we are talking about the best player in the NBA right now, not career-wise. You brought up that interview which was funny, but it's also funny that LeBron doesn't care about being the best player, but he wants that ring. So is having a ring actually a causation for being the best player? Or is it a correlation? I'm sure there are a lot of Malone fans out there that will agree that not having a ring doesn't mean you can't be the best individually. Basketball is a team sport that requires everyone to contribute to win a ring. Kobe might be the main reason, but he certainly wasn't the only reason. So the ring argument right there isn't that strong when we consider that Kobe is playing on a team and not by himself in trying to be the best player in the game.

Carrying his team is also something you mentioned. Not much to say as both players have had to carried their teams at one or more points in their career. I guess that was more for the Durant argument from you.

Sidebar, I'm no expert of the NBA during Wilt's time, so I can't say anything about that. 

If I must respond to this line of reasoning ok...



Mental skills are not gaged by statistics as far as basketball is concerned, a player doesn't have 35 points, 3 steals, 2 assists, and 10 mental errors. You can tell if someone is mentally tougher than an opponent. It's the eyeball test, the will, drive, determination to be the best, to win, TO BE CHAMPION! I know you being a Kings fan don't really know what that's all about, but I can tell you from personal experience, it's great try it sometime

Physical skill doesn't always translate to stats. If you have player A who is right handed and cannot dribble left and player B who is right handed but can go left, right, over, under, sideways, backwards, do flips while shooting, yet player A scores more does that mean he possesses more physical skill? No, it means he scores more. So if player B can beat you all these different ways and is effective at all of them but player A is effective only at one or two things who would you say has more physical skill? notice no stats were used in getting to the answer.




Malone was the worst argument you could have used, he had a team FULL of players that could have won but what happened? They lost every time, to whom? The Bulls (Jordan). Had Malone won those rings against the Bulls we would be talking about him being the best PF to play the game, at least he would be in many more discussions than he is. Instead who is it that we talk about? Duncan, why is that? We value the end result. We don't care that you racked up so many points and got to the Finals so many times, we care if you WON. Not saying that stats don't matter entirely but if I had to chose between Duncan and Malone i would say Duncan, sorry Karl.




Again I will say people are arguing name not the accomplishments. So many people don't like Kobe, some on this message board admit it but still can admit he's the best. Others can't see past the fact they hate Kobe, Lebron is so likable he takes fake photos before games and smiles all the time and is so flashy and everything we like to see aesthetically, but what's that??? He doesn't have what??? A ring, no way!!! Really??? No ring??? Well uhhhhh let's just uhhh say well, he sure can score a bunch of points oh and he also boards well and can pass the ball too. Boy he must be the best right??? 




NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!




but he makes a great hamburger and I like his shoes, and I just like him, seems like a cool person. He definitely has the best personality though right???




NOPE!!!!! Sorry Derek Fisher is better there too 

 j/k.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by CP1708

 Monta's got jokes. 

However, this did strike me with something.  Few weeks back, SI ran a poll about the toughest defenders in the league.  Artest was 1, Kobe was #2.  Earlier in the season, maybe a month or so, they ran a similar poll, most overrated players in the league.  LeBron James had 3%.  Not even one vote mentioned Kobe. 

So while Monta was kidding, should we take players opinions into consideration?  Why are there players that believe Bron is overhyped?  Why is Kobe paid that respect of being a top shelf defender, even while NT analysts insist that he sucks and Bron is some elite defender now? 

I suppose people can say they are jealous and all that, so what, they aren't jealous of Kobe too? 

  Besides, Bron is supposed to be the friendlier of the two, the guy that everyone wants to hang out with, be around and what not.  So why would players diss him, and not the guy that is a prick to them? 

Just another angle to look at/consider. 

I agree with the guy that said I hope the Lakers and Cavs meet, so we can settle it all on the court.  If Bron won that, I wouldn't have any trouble saying torch passed.  But if Kobe wins that title, how a Bron fan could keep arguing would be beyond me.  But that's for another day. 

LOL. I mean there is this poll too:

and this one:

"WHO IS THE DIRTIEST PLAYER IN THE NBA?
Reggie Evans, Raptors F 21%

Ron Artest, Lakers F 13%

Andres Nocioni, Kings F 6%

Anderson Varejao, Cavs C 5%

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G 4%

Kobe win here though:
[h1]The poll: Asking NBA players who is the most difficult player to guard [/h1]
Read more: http://newsok.com/the-poll-asking-n...rticle/3447851?custom_click=rss#ixzz0jKBh1NYS


Shane Battier: Kobe Bryant

Carlos Boozer: Dirk Nowitzki

Marcus Camby: Shaquille O’Neal

Nick Collison: Dirk Nowitzki

Kevin Durant: Ben Gordon

Derek Fisher: John Stockton

Rudy Gay: Kobe Bryant

Joey Graham: Dwyane Wade

Danny Granger: LeBron James

Jeff Green: Kobe Bryant

James Harden: LeBron James

Grant Hill: Michael Jordan

Dwight Howard: Shaquille O’Neal

Andre Iguodala: LeBron James

Brandon Jennings: Steve Nash

Joe Johnson: Ray Allen

David Lee: Dirk Nowitzki

Kevin Love: Dwight Howard

O.J. Mayo: Kevin Durant

Steve Nash: Kobe Bryant

Joakim Noah: Yao Ming

Dirk Nowitzki: Kobe Bryant

Brandon Roy: Kobe Bryant

Derek Rose: LeBron James

Thabo Sefolosha: Chris Paul

Dwyane Wade: Kobe Bryant

David West: Dirk Nowitzki

Deron Williams: Kobe Bryant

Mo Williams: Chris Paul

I personally only see these polls as entertainment. Fisher saying Stockon is hardest to guard? Come on now, dude should have said the whole league of PGs.

  those are good too.  I didn't know they did so many damn polls.  So that was 8-4 for Kobe as the toughest to guard.  And also some votes for dirtiest. 

And I have no doubts guys would like to have the nice guy on their team, totally understand that. I hope SI does who do you want taking the final shot, that poll would get real ugly I bet. 

  

 

[JD617]

Grant Hill: Michael Jordan
Come on, Grant. Use that Duke education.

 

[atlballa15]

Originally Posted by Dade B0Y

Post game, better footwork, mid range game blah blah blah. Does Kobe have these advantages over Lebron? Certainly.

But so does Brandon Roy. And he is not in the same stratosphere as Lebon.

Buckets are Buckets.

Lebron James is avg 30/8/7 on 50% shooting. Along with 8 dimes and 7 boards. That's while shooting an avg FIVE threes a game, might I add. That is ASTOUNDING efficiency.  And he has has lead these past two Cavaliers teams, to now two consecutive 66 win pace seasons.

And let's be serious here, Kobe Bryant in place of Lebron on these past two Cavalies teams, would not be nearly as good.  While Lebron on the Lakers current cast, would yield the same results.

The Cavs are a 25, 30 wins (TOPS) win team without Lebron James. And would not be CLOSE to being as good with any other star player you can name to to sub in his place.
 
38 year old Shaq, newly acquired 34 year old Antawn Jamsion, and Mo Williams have been Lebron's most legitmaite teammates in his career thus far. Certainly nothing to write home about.

And I don't even mess with Lebron like that, I'm a Miami Heat/D.Wade homer. But, for anyone to deny that Lebron is the best player in the league today, I just don't what you're watching.

Word. In my opinion, the Kobe-Lebron argument is nonsense; Lebron is far and away the most dominant player in this game, and everyone knows it. The argument that Kobe has superior skills and scoring ability is severely flawed for two reasons: 1) Lebron simply does not need footwork or a jumpshot to be effective, not at this point in his career. Why flummox your defender with beautiful footwork and hit a fade-away in his face when you can simply blow by him or overpower him? Kobe is commended time and time again for connecting on amazing shots in the face of suffocating defense, yet as beautiful as such plays are, when compared to Lebron, they only evince Kobe's inferiority as an athlete. Lebron does not need to make those type of shots to be a prolific scorer; he is a train, with the athletic ability to get wherever he wants on the floor. 2) Lebron's ability as a playmaker is vastly underestimated and under-appreciated. From the start of his career, Lebron has possessed an uncanny ability to make his teammates better. At 6'9'' he can see the whole court, and unlike Kobe - who seems to have periods where he "locks-in" to scoring mode - Lebron is always looking to dish and create plays for his teammates. This is largely the reason that Lebron's Cav's are on an equal plane with Kobe's Lakeshow with a far less talented supporting cast.

 

[nycknicks105]

It's so funny how Melo get's overlooked.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by atlballa15

Originally Posted by Dade B0Y

Post game, better footwork, mid range game blah blah blah. Does Kobe have these advantages over Lebron? Certainly.

But so does Brandon Roy. And he is not in the same stratosphere as Lebon.

Buckets are Buckets.

Lebron James is avg 30/8/7 on 50% shooting. Along with 8 dimes and 7 boards. That's while shooting an avg FIVE threes a game, might I add. That is ASTOUNDING efficiency.  And he has has lead these past two Cavaliers teams, to now two consecutive 66 win pace seasons.

And let's be serious here, Kobe Bryant in place of Lebron on these past two Cavalies teams, would not be nearly as good.  While Lebron on the Lakers current cast, would yield the same results.

The Cavs are a 25, 30 wins (TOPS) win team without Lebron James. And would not be CLOSE to being as good with any other star player you can name to to sub in his place.
 
38 year old Shaq, newly acquired 34 year old Antawn Jamsion, and Mo Williams have been Lebron's most legitmaite teammates in his career thus far. Certainly nothing to write home about.

And I don't even mess with Lebron like that, I'm a Miami Heat/D.Wade homer. But, for anyone to deny that Lebron is the best player in the league today, I just don't what you're watching.

Word. In my opinion, the Kobe-Lebron argument is nonsense; Lebron is far and away the most dominant player in this game, and everyone knows it. The argument that Kobe has superior skills and scoring ability is severely flawed for two reasons: 1) Lebron simply does not need footwork or a jumpshot to be effective, not at this point in his career. Why flummox your defender with beautiful footwork and hit a fade-away in his face when you can simply blow by him or overpower him? Kobe is commended time and time again for connecting on amazing shots in the face of suffocating defense, yet as beautiful as such plays are, when compared to Lebron, they only evince Kobe's inferiority as an athlete. Lebron does not need to make those type of shots to be a prolific scorer; he is a train, with the athletic ability to get wherever he wants on the floor. 2) Lebron's ability as a playmaker is vastly underestimated and under-appreciated. From the start of his career, Lebron has possessed an uncanny ability to make his teammates better. At 6'9'' he can see the whole court, and unlike Kobe - who seems to have periods where he "locks-in" to scoring mode - Lebron is always looking to dish and create plays for his teammates. This is largely the reason that Lebron's Cav's are on an equal plane with Kobe's Lakeshow with a far less talented supporting cast.

Very very good point.  I agree that Kobe takes some of the most difficult shots for no damn reason.  Simply rise up and shoot, quit puttin contortions and extras on it. 

I am thinkin of the shot he missed in Orlando as an example.  He could have risen straight up for the 3 to win, but instead went in closer to take a falling away twisting 2 just to tie. 

And he does this alot.  A big flaw of his imo. 
  

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

Everything always revolves around Kobe. Whether good or bad, it's not MJ who gets the comparisons drawn to him anymore, it's Kobe.

lol @ Durant being 2nd best because he can score. When the Lakers were 7th seed and Kobe was dominating every team in the league, nobody cared and ruled him out of MVP discussion even though he had guys like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, guys who never amounted to anything.

Now, apparently it's ok and those rules don't apply to Kevin Durant. Everyones always out to screw Kobe one way or another.

We remember all the talk about Lebron last season, than the Lakers won, and suddenly ESPN was saying Kobe was the best again...They let Kobe be for about 3 months than it was back on the Lebron bandwagon.

That's how it is. No matter what Kobe does to shut up critics, they let him be for a little bit then go back to their usuals.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

I have said everything a person can say as to why Kobe is the best and all the people for Lebron and just reverting back to stats and can't provide anything else but that. So if you keep saying Lebron is the best then at least give some evidence as to why you think that and stop saying the stats. There is more to being the best than stats ask Wilt about that.

Alright. You first mentioned that Kobe possessed better skills mentally and physically to be the best player. Quite a subjective opinion imo. How exactly are you backing up that statement without using stats? Stats like how many game winners Kobe has made and how many points he scores in the 4th when it matters. Or how he has shown how strong he is by playing hurt the past couple of seasons. Have to use stats to quantify how many games he has played hurt right? I agree that Kobe might be mentally stronger than LeBron, but LeBron is no longer the same player that was looking to pass in the clutch anymore too. And LeBron is for sure on Kobe's level and probably higher physically.

You even mentioned that Kobe didn't get the best player tag when he was leading the league in stats. Just what year are you talking about that he was leading the league in stats? Being a T-Mac fan, you know I can easily state the countless times that T-Mac's stats have been better than Kobe's in the early 00's. Then we have to insert LeBron in the convo in the mid 00's. Are you referring to the 05-06 season when Kobe was getting 35 points a game, but LeBron was getting 31 himself with better overall stats besides FT%?

You then mentioned how rings were really important. Technically, another stat we have to count, but I thought like most people have tried to say, we are talking about the best player in the NBA right now, not career-wise. You brought up that interview which was funny, but it's also funny that LeBron doesn't care about being the best player, but he wants that ring. So is having a ring actually a causation for being the best player? Or is it a correlation? I'm sure there are a lot of Malone fans out there that will agree that not having a ring doesn't mean you can't be the best individually. Basketball is a team sport that requires everyone to contribute to win a ring. Kobe might be the main reason, but he certainly wasn't the only reason. So the ring argument right there isn't that strong when we consider that Kobe is playing on a team and not by himself in trying to be the best player in the game.

Carrying his team is also something you mentioned. Not much to say as both players have had to carried their teams at one or more points in their career. I guess that was more for the Durant argument from you.

Sidebar, I'm no expert of the NBA during Wilt's time, so I can't say anything about that. 

If I must respond to this line of reasoning ok...



Mental skills are not gaged by statistics as far as basketball is concerned, a player doesn't have 35 points, 3 steals, 2 assists, and 10 mental errors. You can tell if someone is mentally tougher than an opponent. It's the eyeball test, the will, drive, determination to be the best, to win, TO BE CHAMPION! I know you being a Kings fan don't really know what that's all about, but I can tell you from personal experience, it's great try it sometime

Physical skill doesn't always translate to stats. If you have player A who is right handed and cannot dribble left and player B who is right handed but can go left, right, over, under, sideways, backwards, do flips while shooting, yet player A scores more does that mean he possesses more physical skill? No, it means he scores more. So if player B can beat you all these different ways and is effective at all of them but player A is effective only at one or two things who would you say has more physical skill? notice no stats were used in getting to the answer.




Malone was the worst argument you could have used, he had a team FULL of players that could have won but what happened? They lost every time, to whom? The Bulls (Jordan). Had Malone won those rings against the Bulls we would be talking about him being the best PF to play the game, at least he would be in many more discussions than he is. Instead who is it that we talk about? Duncan, why is that? We value the end result. We don't care that you racked up so many points and got to the Finals so many times, we care if you WON. Not saying that stats don't matter entirely but if I had to chose between Duncan and Malone i would say Duncan, sorry Karl.




Again I will say people are arguing name not the accomplishments. So many people don't like Kobe, some on this message board admit it but still can admit he's the best. Others can't see past the fact they hate Kobe, Lebron is so likable he takes fake photos before games and smiles all the time and is so flashy and everything we like to see aesthetically, but what's that??? He doesn't have what??? A ring, no way!!! Really??? No ring??? Well uhhhhh let's just uhhh say well, he sure can score a bunch of points oh and he also boards well and can pass the ball too. Boy he must be the best right??? 




NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!




but he makes a great hamburger and I like his shoes, and I just like him, seems like a cool person. He definitely has the best personality though right???




NOPE!!!!! Sorry Derek Fisher is better there too 

 j/k.

1. Mental skills: decided by eyeball test you say. Subjective then. Only way to not make it objective, quantify it. Examples are as I stated before with the number of gaming wining shots and clutch points scored in the 4th quarter. To say Kobe has tried harder than LeBron to be the best is an opinion and laughable. I don't watch basketball and say to myself, yeah that Kobe has more drive and determination to be the best than LeBron for sure because he won a championship. This is a debate about being the best player right now as a basketball player, not the best career. Even I would have to admit that MJ on the Wizards wasn't the best player anymore even if he had 6 rings.

2. Physical skills: examples of player a vs player b. Subjective again. I am not going to sit here and say LeBron can do anything that Kobe can with the ball, but it is the a fact that Kobe can't do some of the things LeBron does because of his pure strength.

3. The Malone example was not an indirect statement suggesting he is the best PF of all time. I am no Malone fan, but I was stating that his fans would probably have thought he was the best in the game the years he won the MVP awards. Even when he had no ring.

4. Accomplishments in the past does not = best player right now. Sure, you can use that as part of your argument, but to put so much weight on who is the best right now by using accomplishments from the past is pretty weak. I already admitted that MJ on the Wizards was no longer the best in the game even with his 6 rings and countless MVPs.

End of the day, your arguments for Kobe are very subjective and you put too much weight on winning rings.  

Sidebar, someone else mentioned a young MJ in the late 80's with his best seasons and not winning a single ring, but arguably being the best player in the game. I guess LeBron is at that stage of his career.