Is it Time to Revisit What the MVP Actually Means?

[a55a5in11]

Ehh. Except for when rose won MVP there's not been many Mvps that you could argue against. But honestly I do think its a big deal this guy voted against bron just so he knew he wouldn't be unanimous

 

[knightngale]

You're really taking this Kobe downfall harder than I thought you would. Keep your chin up, right on Kobe's nutsack.

The hell do I care about Oscar Robertson when discussing MVP awards in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013. Oscar won 50 games ONCE in his career before he went onto being a 2nd option behind Kareem in MIL. And you know what? HE WON MVP THAT YEAR. Maybe if he won more games, he'd have more MVP's????

2009:
Best individual season based on evidence- check. Highest PER of his career and of any perimiter player since Jordan. Really, Any number or metric you want to find.
Best value based on evidence - Wade can have a case made here - not as high of on/off rating, but actually had a greater off court number but Miami was a far worse team and didn't have better indv numbers or record.
Best record: Check. Lakers right there, but Kobe didn't have as good of a season or as drastic on/off numbers with his team.

2010:
Best individual season based on evidence - check. Any metric or number you want to use. Highest PER etc etc.
Best value based on evidence - More drastic off court #'s than Kobe but not as Durant. Durant not a better season or record.
Best record - check

2012:
Best individual season based on evidence - check. Highest PER, most win shares. 27, 8 and 6.
Best value based on evidence - Better +/- numbers than Durant, but not as good as Paul. Still better season and record than Paul.
Best record - No, but not MVP candidates on Chicago or SA. OKC 1 win better, but trumps Durant in other 2 departments.

2013:
Best individual season - check. PER, win shares, FG%, whatever. Historic year.
Best value based on evidence - check. Better +/- #'s than Durant, Carmelo or Paul.
Best record - check


So, like I said I can make a case that out-favors any other candidate in these 4 years. Wins, individual numbers, 'value'. He comes out with 2/3 or 3/3 on his side each year.

If you don't think LeBron is deserving of each one - let me know which one(s) you think and who he robbed of it? If not, then I don't know what the hell your point is.

I'm on Kobe's nutsack yet you go and dig up a ton of Lebron stats to white knight him?

I mentioned Oscar because he was carrying a bunch of scrubs into the playoffs while posting better stats than your idol and he was not awarded for it. He won 50 games once cause he was playing with pure scrubs in a much competitive league.

Stats are not the only thing that factors in when it comes to MVP. Popularity is arguably more important. Stats are also misleading when comparing Lebron to Kobe.
Comparing a player who is obsessed with stats to a player that does not give a damn about his effiency

A player who used to tell his teammates to get out of the way in Cleveland so he could grab more boards. A player who still refuses to shoot at the end of quarters even though his stans swear that he has unlimited range.

Go watch those 2 head to head matchups in 2009 and Kobe drilling rainbow fadeaways in Lebron's face and beating the cavs. Did the stats help him then? At worst it is arguable who was the better player that year and at best you can say it was Kobe and not the choking version of Lebron. Comparing championship level kobe to choking era Lebron? I laugh at those stats.

 

[yeeupp]

Kobe should of won Nash second MVP Award.

 

[al3xis]

Kobe drilling rainbow fadeaways

You win.

Although, stats are the last thing I care about with LeBron, always have been. I have no bias to LeBron James other than strong belief he's one the handful of the best players ever. Stats come as a byproduct of what he does on the floor, and in the end are a form actual, visible evidence when subjective awards like MVP are handed out. I don't really care, but I know it factors in when MVP's are handed out along with team record and this 'value perception' some like to use. That's why I laid those years out as such, otherwise it's just an opinion on who the best player is and goes without saying, I'd say LeBron for a multitude of reasons, some reflected in a box score, but many of which are not.

If was a stats hound, wouldn't I be jumping ship from LeBron to Durant right now and his 36/11/9 stat lines? No. Why not? Cause the guy doesn't communicate on defense, gets lost in transition, doesn't work over screens and gets caught ball watching. If I was a stats hound, I'd think Dwight Howard was actually good. I don't. If you want to talk about more than 'rainbow fadeways' I'm all for it, if not, this isn't going anywhere. You have your thoughts, I have mine.

 

[knightngale]

You win.

Although, stats are the last thing I care about with LeBron, always have been. I have no bias to LeBron James other than strong belief he's one the handful of the best players ever. Stats come as a byproduct of what he does on the floor, and in the end are a form actual, visible evidence when subjective awards like MVP are handed out. I don't really care, but I know it factors in when MVP's are handed out along with team record and this 'value perception' some like to use. That's why I laid those years out as such, otherwise it's just an opinion on who the best player is and goes without saying, I'd say LeBron for a multitude of reasons, some reflected in a box score, but many of which are not.

If was a stats hound, wouldn't I be jumping ship from LeBron to Durant right now and his 36/11/9 stat lines? No. Why not? Cause the guy doesn't communicate on defense, gets lost in transition, doesn't work over screens and gets caught ball watching. If I was a stats hound, I'd think Dwight Howard was actually good. I don't. If you want to talk about more than 'rainbow fadeways' I'm all for it, if not, this isn't going anywhere. You have your thoughts, I have mine.

Lebron is better than Durant. On offense and defense. Lebron is the best player in the league and he deserved the MVP this year. That is not what I am arguing about.
My main point is that the MVP award is a joke due to the changing criteria and inconsistency over the years. I've used Kobe, Oscar, and Shaq as examples because they are all time greats that have 1 MVP and could have one more if the criteria was used in their favor during a certain year. Also that when Lebron arguably deserves an MVP he gets it more so than other greats of the past. It is unfortunate that your favorite player is a prime example that the MVP award voting is not objective in the first place. Which is why I find it ridiculous how some people are calling out that Boston reporter and that he is wrong.

 

[onetrust]

Lebron is better than Durant. On offense and defense. Lebron is the best player in the league and he deserved the MVP this year. That is not what I am arguing about.
My main point is that the MVP award is a joke due to the changing criteria and inconsistency over the years. I've used Kobe, Oscar, and Shaq as examples because they are all time greats that have 1 MVP and could have one more if the criteria was used in their favor during a certain year. Also that when Lebron arguably deserves an MVP he gets it more so than other greats of the past. It is unfortunate that your favorite player is a prime example that the MVP award voting is not objective in the first place. Which is why I find it ridiculous how some people are calling out that Boston reporter and that he is wrong.

So all that gibberish you just wrote translates to you being being salty your idol only has one. I'm very curious to know who you think should've won besides bron in those other years

 

[al3xis]

You'd get no argument from me that Shaq is back-owed 1 or two, as is Kobe in 2006.

Oscar, he played in an era dominated by Wilt and Russell. Unlike then, I just see no other candidate that jumped out in the 4 years LeBron won. Voting has reflected that, none of the 4 years were close. Wilt didn't even win the MVP the year he averaged 50 and 26 because of Russell.

Which is why I find it ridiculous how some people are calling out that Boston reporter and that he is wrong.

It's nothing but a footnote in history so it's not important enough to get upset about - but the logic behind it is. The only thing that supports his argument is a hypothetical. Nothing factual.

 

[mister friendly]

I think Lebron is a great player but stats blur peoples vision of him.

The thing I hate he's super conscious of his shooting percentage and he'll shy away from those big shots that you'd expect from a MVP caliber player

I really think alot people like him because he's a fantasy monster because when I watch games I don't watch and think damn "he's better than superstars like KD, Kobe, Rose, Dirk, Melo and Chris Paul.

If a guy has 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, I except more than one championship. Alhough he'll probably get his 2 rings this year.

He's just had a history of shrinking too much in big moments during his past MVP seasons. Although he's seemed to get over that this season Game 1 vs the Bulls withstanding

 

[tricky nicky]

I'm on Kobe's nutsack

Basically.

 

[knightngale]

So all that gibberish you just wrote translates to you being being salty your idol only has one. I'm very curious to know who you think should've won besides bron in those other years

not really

2009 and 2010 could have gone either way depending on what definition of MVP you use
which is the whole point of the argument
which you seem to not understand

the only year his mvp was stolen was 2006

 

[mister friendly]

So all that gibberish you just wrote translates to you being being salty your idol only has one. I'm very curious to know who you think should've won besides bron in those other years

not really

2009 and 2010 could have gone either way depending on what definition of MVP you use
which is the whole point of the argument
which you seem to not understand

the only year his mvp was stolen was 2006

2009 yes but 2010 no.

Kobe basically didn't get the benefit of the doubt in 2009 because of the Finals loss in 2008. The media was ready for new blood. They were ready to crown Lebron

 

[clyde the glide]

kobe shouldnt have any mvps if u really wanna go there.   when a player tops his mvp season of the previous year and your the 7 seed its kinda in the bag at that point.  i'd love to see a list of mvps from teams with lower seeds

 

[dathbgboy]

As long as the media and the fans have a say so, the MVP will always go to the most popular person. Regardless of stats, impact on the game, etc., the most popular player will always win it. Look at the Slam Dunk contest Blake Griffin won, we all know he didn't deserve it but the fans voted for the most popular dunker in the event.

Should Lebron have won MVP this year, quite so, should it have been unanimous or even close to it? no. That's pretty much saying that he is the all around best and no other player even comes close to bein good which is nonsense.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

If we were really going by this most VALUABLE to their team logic, then Michael Jordan would only have one MVP. And that one would've been the one he won in the 80s, before he ever won a ring.. Maybe the 90-91 one would've been justified as well. But that's it.

The voters are always customizing the criteria for who their MVP is season by season. Sometimes it's the guy who made the difference on a team that wasn't good the previous year. Sometimes they use the "take this guy off the team and they win 10 games in total" argument. But the bottom line is that if you're good enough and have a historically great season, all these other definitions for what the MVP is are pushed aside. No matter what team you play for and what teammates you have.

Also, if you don't think that LeBron James is all that VALUABLE to the Heat, then I would just like to hear you comment on the fact that he led the Heat in points AND rebounds AND assists per game by significant margins. I could use a laugh. Like the dude who mentioned that Chris Bosh doesn't grab rebounds on purpose and all he does is box out for LeBron to grab rebounds.

 

[knightngale]

If we were really going by this most VALUABLE to their team logic, then Michael Jordan would only have one MVP. And that one would've been the one he won in the 80s, before he ever won a ring.. Maybe the 90-91 one would've been justified as well. But that's it.

The voters are always customizing the criteria for who their MVP is season by season. Sometimes it's the guy who made the difference on a team that wasn't good the previous year. Sometimes they use the "take this guy off the team and they win 10 games in total" argument. But the bottom line is that if you're good enough and have a historically great season, all these other definitions for what the MVP is are pushed aside. No matter what team you play for and what teammates you have.

Also, if you don't think that LeBron James is all that VALUABLE to the Heat, then I would just like to hear you comment on the fact that he led the Heat in points AND rebounds AND assists per game by significant margins. I could use a laugh. Like the dude who mentioned that Chris Bosh doesn't grab rebounds on purpose and all he does is box out for LeBron to grab rebounds.

So Jordan was only valuable to his team 2 times? That some good analysis right there. Not surprising coming from an MVP level lebron fan.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

So Jordan was only valuable to his team 2 times? That some good analysis right there. Not surprising coming from an MVP level lebron fan.

Can you at least read what I wrote? Where the hell have I said that he wasn't valuable? Not surprising that a LeBron hater simply ignores the information that is right there in front of him and chooses to see what he wants to see.

Jordan sure as hell wasn't AS valuable to the Bulls as Hakeem was for the Rockets, Barkley for the Sixers, Robinson for the Spurs and some other variations if we were going by the "take him off the team" logic. The Bulls still had Pippen and Horace Grant. In fact, we have concrete proof in the form of the 1993-94 season when Jordan retired that the Bulls were still a great team without him when they won just two less games than the previous year with Jordan. But for example, when the Spurs lost David Robinson in the 1996-97 season their record went way south compared to the previous season.

 

[mister friendly]

So Jordan was only valuable to his team 2 times? That some good analysis right there. Not surprising coming from an MVP level lebron fan.

Can you at least read what I wrote? Where the hell have I said that he wasn't valuable? Not surprising that a LeBron hater simply ignores the information that is right there in front of him and chooses to see what he wants to see.

Jordan sure as hell wasn't AS valuable to the Bulls as Hakeem was for the Rockets, Barkley for the Sixers, Robinson for the Spurs and some other variations if we were going by the "take him off the team" logic. The Bulls still had Pippen and Horace Grant. In fact, we have concrete proof in the form of the 1993-94 season when Jordan retired that the Bulls were still a great team without him when they won just two less games than the previous year with Jordan. But for example, when the Spurs lost David Robinson in the 1996-97 season their record went way south compared to the previous season.

To pair this your previous point about how valuable Lebron is. I think if r you replace Lebron with just an average forward starter type of player, the Heat are still a 2 seed to 4 seed in the East. That roster has talent.

 

[mister friendly]

Also you forgot during the Spurs horrible 1997 season. Sean Elliott missed most of the season too. Elliott was All Star the previous season.

The Rockets were 15-10 in their only real stretch without Hakeem

The Sixers were never really good during Barkley's prime years there. Only 1 50 win season. So him not playing during matter because he never close to Jordan's level

Also with the 1994 Bulls you failed to mention they added Toni Kukoc and that they upgraded their rotation with guys like Kerr, Longley and Wellington.

It wasnt like it was the same 1993 team minus Jordan

 

[xtapolapacetl]

To pair this your previous point about how valuable Lebron is. I think if r you replace Lebron with just an average forward starter type of player, the Heat are still a 2 seed to 4 seed in the East. That roster has talent.

Ironic, because that's exactly what the Bulls were in 93-94 when Jordan retired. Yet nobody is questioning Jordan's MVPs.

Do you think that Clyde Drexler should've been MVP over Jordan in the 91-92 season?

Sean Elliott played half of that season. The Spurs' record in those games was still terrible.

Also with the 1997 Spurs you failed to mention that they added Dominique Wilkins who put up 18 and 6, which is a little more than rookie Toni Kukoc put up. All hail the true 1995-96 MVP, David Robinson.

I heard plenty about how much "talent" LeBron had around him back when he played with the Cavs and then those BUMS go on to set the NBA record with 26 losses in a row the first season after he leaves. Go on, list all the other "differences" between those Cavs other than LeBron. Don't forget Mike Brown, which for some reason is mysteriously left out recently.

 

[mister friendly]

To pair this your previous point about how valuable Lebron is. I think if r you replace Lebron with just an average forward starter type of player, the Heat are still a 2 seed to 4 seed in the East. That roster has talent.

Ironic, because that's exactly what the Bulls were in 93-94 when Jordan retired. Yet nobody is questioning Jordan's MVPs.

Do you think that Clyde Drexler should've been MVP over Jordan in the 91-92 season?

Sean Elliott played half of that season. The Spurs' record in those games was still terrible.

Also with the 1997 Spurs you failed to mention that they added Dominique Wilkins who put up 18 and 6, which is a little more than rookie Toni Kukoc put up. All hail the true 1995-96 MVP, David Robinson.

I heard plenty about how much "talent" LeBron had around him back when he played with the Cavs and then those BUMS go on to set the NBA record with 26 losses in a row the first season after he leaves. Go on, list all the other "differences" between those Cavs other than LeBron. Don't forget Mike Brown, which for some reason is mysteriously left out recently.

Oh yeah I forgot the 37 year old bargain bin free agent signing of Wilkins who started 26 games. Come on man ..he was done at that point.

You know Kukoc was a better player as rookie than 1997 Wilkins was. The only reason why Kukoc averages aren't better that year is because the Bulls were set at the starting forwards spots with Pippen and Grant and he didn't get a bunch of minutes. If you give Kukoc the same minutes and the same amount of shots as 1997 Wilkins was getting, Kukoc is a more productive player.

Who did Phil draw the game winning play for? Toni Kukoc.

If he wasn't that good. Phil definitely aint going to him as first option in the playoffs vs the Knicks

And the differences between those teams were key parts of the rotation were gone like Shaq, Big Z and Delonte, not to mention Jamison and Varajelo missed significant time too that season, so it made it hard for them to establish a rhythm.

People can hate on Mike Brown but he's a good coach, The Lakers posted the 6th best record in the NBA, his only full season as their coach.

If Gilbert keeps Brown as the head coach and Lebron is honest to the Cavaliers about his intentions. The Cavaliers couldve picked up a decent replacement in the beginning of free agency and tried to piece the remaining roster and it could have been a 35 to 40 win team.

Lebron was valuable to those Cavs teams,You cant act like he was just one piece. They built their whole roster around him. A bunch of those guys wouldn't have been on the Cavs roster if they didn't complement Lebrons skills.

The Bulls built around Jordan but they also had a system that everybody had to fit into including Jordan. Which makes it easier for a team to transition without a player with a decent replacement available.

 

[mister friendly]

Anyways I dont think anybody is saying Lebron shouldnt have won the MVP this year.

But I think its ridiculous that some Lebron fans are upset because Lebron didn't win the award unanimously. Like theres never been any other players that had great seasons and not win the award unanimously?

 

[gllahone84]

Some great points being made in here. 

 

[jthagreat]

To pair this your previous point about how valuable Lebron is. I think if r you replace Lebron with just an average forward starter type of player, the Heat are still a 2 seed to 4 seed in the East. That roster has talent.

Ironic, because that's exactly what the Bulls were in 93-94 when Jordan retired. Yet nobody is questioning Jordan's MVPs.

Do you think that Clyde Drexler should've been MVP over Jordan in the 91-92 season?

Sean Elliott played half of that season. The Spurs' record in those games was still terrible.

Also with the 1997 Spurs you failed to mention that they added Dominique Wilkins who put up 18 and 6, which is a little more than rookie Toni Kukoc put up. All hail the true 1995-96 MVP, David Robinson.

I heard plenty about how much "talent" LeBron had around him back when he played with the Cavs and then those BUMS go on to set the NBA record with 26 losses in a row the first season after he leaves. Go on, list all the other "differences" between those Cavs other than LeBron. Don't forget Mike Brown, which for some reason is mysteriously left out recently.

Valid points my dude...and i dont like bron at all anymore

 

[rell826]

There have been plenty of robberies throughout the course of the MVP award's history. The only people that should be fuming about those are the players themselves.

The MVP hasn't meant Most Valuable Player to me in some time. Its a Player of the Year award and should be renamed that. Hell, when Alex Rodriguez wins MVP and his team isn't even in the Playoffs, how valuable are you? The team stunk with you putting up gaudy numbers.
 

 

[knightngale]

Ironic, because that's exactly what the Bulls were in 93-94 when Jordan retired. Yet nobody is questioning Jordan's MVPs.

Do you think that Clyde Drexler should've been MVP over Jordan in the 91-92 season?

Sean Elliott played half of that season. The Spurs' record in those games was still terrible.

Also with the 1997 Spurs you failed to mention that they added Dominique Wilkins who put up 18 and 6, which is a little more than rookie Toni Kukoc put up. All hail the true 1995-96 MVP, David Robinson.

I heard plenty about how much "talent" LeBron had around him back when he played with the Cavs and then those BUMS go on to set the NBA record with 26 losses in a row the first season after he leaves. Go on, list all the other "differences" between those Cavs other than LeBron. Don't forget Mike Brown, which for some reason is mysteriously left out recently.

Delonte West, Ilgauskas who went after Lebron to Miami, Shaq.

Jamison missed 26 games
Baron Davis only played 15 games
Mo Williams only played 36 games
Gibson missed 15 games
Varejao only played 31 games
Parker missed 10 games

They only had 4 players that played over 70 games and two of them were scrubs. Even the scrubs missed a lot of games that year. That team was either legitimately riddled with injuries or were in full tank mode. Dudes were not even trying to get a good record.

So yeah Lebron leaving WAS THE ONLY FACTOR that led to their poor record right?

Did you really mention Horace Grant as proof that MJ was not that valuable to his team?

The misinformation lebron stans are the worst.