Grey market discussion thread (Let's keep the discussion mature) Rules on pg 1 please read before yo

[deezrsackolishus]

See he said u can tell with grey market 88s.

So u can tell on 88 so pretty much all threes

U can tell all xi by their mushe up 23 and cotton tab

Im sure theres something for every pair man

 

[Bert.]

how can you tell on the 88's? some come with the real insole BTW

 

[ninjahood]

Illegitimate is not a synonym of fake. An illegal source does not make a product counterfeit.

Bingo.

 

[joeyd12]

how can you tell on the 88's? some come with the real insole BTW

The elephant print is more yellowish grey and the black print is thicker and darker. The holes in the tongue are less defined. The white laces and sock liner are super white and the tumble leather looks more yellow and they clash more. You can clearly see numerous paint flaws on the outsole. And the insole font and centering is off.

Here is a video of the super high quality replica:
If you look at the same page, you can see other videos of high quality fakes like the bred 4 and concord. I posted this video pages ago, I think it was overlooked.

 

[jays4day23]

Being it as though, there is TONS of SPECULATION in this thread. Let's just put it this way...If GREY MARKET shoes are indeed made in the same factory by the same workers and uses the same materials as authorized pairs that go in retailers like Footlocker, Champs, etc they are NOT FAKE.

People need to learn to know the difference between the word FAKE & UNAUTHORIZED.

fake
/fāk/
Noun
A thing that is not genuine; a forgery or sham.

&

unauthorized root word below...

au·thor·ized
[aw-thuh-rahyzd] Show IPA
adjective
1.
given or endowed with authority: an authorized agent.
2.
duly sanctioned.

Many of you will in the early pages of the thread were going back and forth about the patent leather cut on the Jordan 11s saying one is too high. The original 1995 Jordan 11 patent leather was cut extremely high compared to how it is cut today, referring to the Bred 11s 2013 and we have seen variations of height on future years and who to say one of the workers made a slight mistake and cut the patent leather higher than normal. If we so glue marks and some heat bubbles, and a whole hosts of "imperfections" so people point on their release date Jordan's whose to say a higher than normal patent leather cut happened to be deemed as acceptable and shipped to retailers. The whole entire Space Jam icy blue Vs Clear bottom 2009 debate is flawed again too because if the entire shoe is made with the same materials by the same workers you can NOT call the shoes fake. To me some of the members of Niketalk in general and lots of the sneaker community want to have a feeling of eliteness so to say when it comes to their shoes or collections as opposed to the newer generation or replica crowd. They don't want to feel in anyway slighted so anything that goes away from the norm they immediately call out FAKE. I have been playing devil's advocate this entire time however my issue is that being it as WE DO NOT KNOW for CERTAIN if they are made with the same materials although from the pictures it appears they are we can not also call them authentic because we do not know. "Ghost shoes" like put in the article Ninjahood posted is a good term for the shoes. But I will say this I happened to try out Taobao before all the people really got hip to it and I decided to get a pair of Jordan 11s just to see the quality and to make my determination on it's authenticity. I got the Concord 11s and at first glance everything seemed legit. The patent leather for the most part seemed good and carbon fiber appear genuine. On the other hand I noticed certain things immediately that had me very skeptical on it's genuineness. The shoes had a really factory paint smell, the carbon fiber had quite a bit of excess glue on it and the box appeared smaller from normal not to mention the inserts had 10.5-11 when the shoe was a 13. I wanted to take it a step further and I decided to compare the Concords with my Jordan 11 Cool Grey 2010 I purchased from Finishline and noticed some MAJOR differences. The box was way bigger could that have been a change from the 2011 Concord possibly? The insert had the correct size labeling on it but to take it to the next level I weighed each shoe and the Cool Grey was significantly heavier *** well as the inserts. I know Jordan Brand is cutting back on quality but 100+ grams from what I can remember from the difference of the FL Cool Grey as opposed to the Taobao Concord? For that reason is why I do not really trust early release shoes although I must say those Space Jams do look better than the 09. The overall mold is better and as the appearance of the 2000 retro. Me personally while I pride myself in only buying authentic shoes if the Grey Market shoes were way cheaper I wouldn't mind getting them however considering the prices are retail and sometimes higher than retail just the thought of me not being able to be sure they are authentic is the reason while I'd just buy them from a retail authorized store. Excuse the essay. LOL Oh yeah, lastly some of y'all really need to stop worrying about what someone has on their feet. Yes, I'm the person to laugh inside when I see somebody wearing fakes but to really be eyeing to see if the next man Space Jams are icy blue or if the patent leather is cut just right is sad and pathetic like it really is not that serious. Once you know your pair is authentic keep it moving.

 

[alp]

this grey market fiasco is why i tend to avoid resellers unless i have no other choice(ex. shoe that came out 4+ years ago). No reason to buy a taobao pair of jordans instead of getting the sneakers u want out of footlocker(or any other legitimate shop). With the amount of GR's that jordan produces it should be a piece of cake copping them, I mean the bred xi's restocked so much practically anyone could have copped multiples had they put in a little work.

Another issue is a good # of celebs have a few of these taobaos and front like nike sends them their kicks early. This gives people the desire to buy their kicks from these websites and thus spreads around the taobao.

 

[bigmike24000]

At the end of the day we know a "grey market" exists for anything that is mass produced that is popular.  China as a country has gotten a lot of heat from the US and other nations because of its unfair trade practices and counterfeit production, its currency manipulation, etc.  I am sure it has come up in this thread that there are entire cities in china that are funded from producing counterfeit products or in other words BOOTLEGGING... to sell to who...you guessed it Americans and other countries as well.  As the shoe culture has sky rocketed, China as a country is trying to benefit from it, not just a couple of individuals.  Sad thing is Customs have the rights to inspect everything we import, so clearly there is a problem there... it should be clear if any shoes that are imported that aren't going to their US destinations for US quality inspections should automatically be flagged and traced back to their origins.  Even fake paperwork trails lead to somewhere and someone and if that person is not employer or in contract with nike all product coming from that person should be destroyed.

A comparison I like to use with shoes is with artwork.  Many artist have originals that they produce and allow to be mass produced on a limited scale.  Because the art industry has the same problem, if the artist is or was famous you will find numerous people trying to reproduce their work and sell it only to benefit off of the labor of the artist.  Each jordan produced is a work of art, even designed by an architect.  Nike at it's sole discretion chooses who they give the rights and blueprints to to mass produce this art and the art is limited to so many pairs, thus the factory or factories they contract to produce these pairs are the only factories that legally, politically etc have the right to reproduce them.  Anyone who does so not under this umbrella is producing something THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHTS TO, meaning it can never be authentic no matter what materials are used or how close the product is to the original that are authorized to be produced.  Because the US government can only reach so far nothing can be done to solve this problem it will always be there.

So now you have 500,000 approved works of art to be distributed.... and a counterfeit industry that can produce an infinite number of this art at its discretion because the lack of Chinese laws etc.  In the end buy from authorized retailers, and people you know.  Use ebay and Clist with caution because that DB 4 or ray allen 13 thats 500.00 or that space jam or concord or cool grey xi for 260 aren't deals, but huge paydays for the counterfeit markets and their selling channels. Last do your homework read the reviews watch the videos there are too many tools at your fingertips to help you know the real and the fake. Last People will be people as someone said.... but supporting the grey markey you are no different than the broke ******* walking the streets with the newest fake gucci or LV or Chanel under her arm.  If u can't afford the original you don't need it, there is no fake it till you make it... because truth is people who fake it so long began to believe whats fake to be real.... so they never make it.

-MB

 

[Methodical Management]

An illegal source does not make a product counterfeit.

Except, perhaps, in a court of law. 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a former US mint employee used their access to steal or illegally gain access to printing plates, inks, and everything needed to print "unauthorized" currency that is otherwise indistinguishable from legal tender.  Tell me:  what crime would they be charged with?  What would the unauthorized bills be called?  "Grey market money?"  "Early release currency?"  Come on.

The euphemisms are silly and detract from the inherently criminal and illegitimate nature of the product.  

If you want to use an actual industry term, you'd refer to it as "third shift" counterfeiting.   It's nothing new, and it's hardly exclusive to sneakers.

http://www.rebucklaw.co.uk/tag/third-shift/

Fake computing products are often produced in the same factories that make the real deal. Corrupt managers will run the equipment in an unofficial “third shift,” typically with substandard components that are nearly indistinguishable from the real ones.

It's kind of sad, really, that this is what some of you are HOPING to be the origin of these products, so you can try and call them "authentic" (despite never knowing their true origins.)  

I certainly get that many consider this phenomenon to be a "just desert" for a company that, like Apple, has a very storied history of questionable labor practices.  Of course, there's a perfectly legal way to express a discontent for Nike's practices:  stop buying their products.  Buying illegal variants of Nike products isn't a protest; it's just weak-willed.  It shows that you're every bit as prone to Nike's marketing efforts as anyone else, but your form of "rebellion" is to violate the law and, ironically, support low-wage labor that may very well take place under WORSE conditions than the legitimate products.  

Then you have the "variant" buyer who's only looking to stunt, and doesn't care if the product is made ethically or legally so long as it's able to fool and impress passersby.  Anyone in this category is working harder to fool themselves than anyone else.  The same people who used to laugh at the kids who called their spongebob dub zeros "exclusives" rather than fakes are now coming up with all sorts of cute little nicknames and excuses to justify their purchase of illegal merchandise.  

The kids who fronted with those tacky plastic Jordan XI knock offs just wanted to have something for cheap that was difficult and expensive to obtain legitimately.  They wanted to own a product that was sold out, like the South Beach LeBron.  They wanted to buy something today that hasn't been made in 3-4 years.  They saw something they wanted, but they either couldn't afford it or couldn't find it - so they took a shortcut.  And you laughed at them for it.... until you started doing it yourself.  

So you try your very best not to use the dreaded "c" word, because counterfeits are crossing the line... counterfeits are the things you mocked and ridiculed, the things the noobies and budget ballers wear.  No, your "early" pairs are special.  They're not fake.  They're "real."  They're "just as good."  The difference is "imaginary," legal, not practical.  There's no functional difference.  Hell, you could probably return them to Nike and even they might not be able to tell.  

It's a nice little fairy tale, but that's all it is: a possible origin story you tell yourself to feel better about buying illegal replicas.  The fact that people are fighting so hard against the word "counterfeit" betrays just how desperate they are to legitimize something that is inherently illegitimate.  Imagine that you paid $1,000 for an authentic "defining moments package" only to find out that you'd received "grey market" replicas.  Wouldn't you feel ripped off?  You'd paid for authentic originals.  Suddenly, those "grey market" pairs start to feel a little less than authentic, don't they?

All this fuss to avoid calling something illegal "counterfeit," and to call something illegitimate "authentic."  It's silly.

Your BEST case scenario is that the items are merely considered a "trademark infringement," but the truth of the matter is that you DON'T know whether they're actually made in a "Nike" factory or not or even if they're using 100% identical materials/components.  You don't know that they haven't cut ANY corners.  You certainly don't know that they've passed through the same QA process as legitimate pairs.

Indeed, the only thing you DO know is that they're illegal.

And that's "good enough?"  

I'm glad I got out of "collecting", because if this is where it's headed, it's becoming sadder and more desperate by the day.   You don't NEED to have every single pair of shoes.  You certainly don't NEED to lower yourself to supporting crime just to dupe strangers into thinking that you've got 100% authentic bits of plastic, string, and rubber.  

We created NikeTalk for people who shared common interests.  We created it for people who, like us, loved sports and athletics, who wanted to walk like Run DMC, run like Bo Jackson, and fly like Air Jordan.  We didn't create it for people with a shared interest in supporting crime.

If, based on what you've seen, you'd like to try to make the argument that these "third shift" products difficult to differentiate or perhaps even functionally equivalent to authentic sneakers, fine - but to say they're "just as good" in general terms is a value judgment and comes across as promotion.   For a topic of this nature to be acceptable on NikeTalk, it must exist for educational reasons only, to help consumers AVOID these products and be aware of issue or, perhaps, to discuss the complexities of outsourcing and artificial scarcity.  

Anyone justifying the purchase or use of these illegal replicas is violating NikeTalk rules.   We HAVE to take this seriously, just like we have to take media piracy seriously.

If you want to quibble, split hairs, nitpick for countless wasted hours, so be it - but do so within the aforementioned boundaries.  We're trying to run a respectable community here.  

Justifying the purchase of these illegal products can NOT be tolerated. 

 

[hdz -]

Great post.

 

[squatchnt]

I find it strange that people really don't consider, regardless of quality and personal feelings, an unauthorized product counterfeit. Especially people who are passionate about this hobby. I think the discussion is good and comparisons should occur for the benefit of those who don't want to unknowingly purchase unauthorized shoes.

 

[2potroast3]

I have been seeing Ppl with FSR of royal 1s on Instagram, idk if they have any differences in the materials, shape or quality but from pics they look dead on

 

[bigmike24000]

I checked that site but seems they don't sell grey markets but those cheap $50 replicas


You sure they weren't just cheap replicas? I've seen those, materials aren't even close to the same. But these grey markets, I want to see if everything holds up to store bought pairs. From pics, they look spot on compared to those $50 replicas. I don't mind shelling out retail for experimental research.
LMAO honestly I could care less about that. Im not opening up a store here. its my money. If they want to get me for a pair of sneakers, so be it. Like they haven't had their share of illegal practices? They're not saints. Nike/JB get off on us consumers all the time so I don't have a problem getting one pair, the "other way"

I like to smoke illegal weed too from time to time. I should probably stop before I end up with Life.
Lol calm down a bit. Overreaction much? I'm not trying to flip these or fool anybody, just want to compare for myself between grey markets and store bought.

No bro these were true grey market pairs not the cheap replicas.  And yes they were so close having 2 pair of store bought Concords I was fooled by how good they were, even paid the guy, until I brought them home to compare them.  They were real close, and sure they could pass for real on foot.  Also paid dude 270.... he refunded it but still knowing what i know they could never be on my feet.  Even if your looking for some pairs to beat or hoop in, I don't know how well they would hold up and who wants to spend 250+ on a good replica...might as well add the extra 100 and buy the real thing.  Also I understand your frustration with Nike/JB and true its your money, but i'm sure you know most of these guys aren't interested in selling you "one" pair.  After you pay overseas shipping and customs an 85-100 dollar replica can easily become double that.

Also smoking weed is legal in SOME states, and in essence no comparison.  What u do in the privacy of your crib or back yard is your business.

There is a deep dark world tied to counterfeiting, and being a husband and a father I personally could never spend one penny of my hard earned money to support it in any way.  In essence what you do with your money is your business even if its for experimental purposes, but asking someone here on NT to pm you this info is where the line is drawn, as the MODs have clearly stated NT doesn't support these pairs in anyway.

 

[ninjahood]

You wanna avoid grey markets? Dont buy jordans

Online anymore its over for that then. Like i told

Meth, ethics wise of course they're illegal but these

Grey markets are made exactly da same way from

Their retail counterparts, all da rules u ever thought

U knew about kicks, throw em out da window.

If u want good news da people peddling these are

Now raising da prices high from a wholesale price

From da lil bit of homework ive been on all this so

So that should start stemmin da flow of these...da

Bad news? Mom & pop stores are internet savy

These days so these grey market are currently

ALREADY on these streets...how u think i seen

Mostly all of what we been talkin bout? Yea....its

Definitely a new nornal out here these days.

 

[jyung101]

Where's you're proof?? Time and time again you blab. They are fake as is not same factory. Prove it bro or move on. You can't haven't and will not.

 

[bigmike24000]

You wanna avoid grey markets? Dont buy jordans

Online anymore

its over for that then. Like i told

Meth, ethics wise of course they're illegal but these

Grey markets are made exactly da same way from

Their retail counterparts, all da rules u ever thought

U knew about kicks, throw em out da window.

If u want good news da people peddling these are

Now raising da prices high from a wholesale price

From da lil bit of homework ive been on all this so

So that should start stemmin da flow of these...da

Bad news? Mom & pop stores are internet savy

These days so these grey market are currently

ALREADY on these streets...how u think i seen

Mostly all of what we been talkin bout? Yea....its

Definitely a new nornal out here these days.

I agree 100%.  Have you seen the video that was posted that outlined entire cities in china dedicated to Bootlegging SHOES only??? It even went further to say a lot of mom and pops who either lost nike accounts or cant get them secretly make contracts with these guys, bypassing the nike wholesale buying rules getting straight access to the top selling product.  In the end online used to be a place to find your gems, now it is flooded with the authentic and grey...and u can't even trust mom and pops because the $$$ has got them.... its real out there....

 

[infamouskickz]

Have yet to see a grey market pair of Jams. Interested to see how they look in person. But overall, I like the icey blue sole over the clear tbh

 

[ninjahood]

Have yet to see a grey market pair of Jams. Interested to see how they look in person. But overall, I like the icey blue sole over the clear tbh

If you're in NYC, go to that spot in harlem across da

Street from da Apollo, they got da space jams wit

Da icy soles among all da latest grey market

offerings, if i didnt know about whats going on (and

Trust 99.999999% of da public is CLUELESS on this)

I even tried explaining this to one of my pals..you

What they said? "Who cares, its da same ******g

****, as long as they not those bootlegs"

And thats da response you're gonna get explaining

What grey market Jordans are to folks.

Like i said before, if u got ethical concerns? Stop

Buying jordans online from anybody.. Da game over

For that, sorry folks. If u dont care about da origin

Of your authentic jordans then continue on with

Your life (da irony is whateva your stance is they're

Both coming from poorly paid 3rd world folks

In emerging folks but thats for another thread) and

Enjoy your sneakers.

 

[alp]

If you're in NYC, go to that spot in harlem across da

Street from da Apollo, they got da space jams wit

Da icy soles among all da latest grey market

offerings, if i didnt know about whats going on (and

Trust 99.999999% of da public is CLUELESS on this)

I even tried explaining this to one of my pals..you

What they said? "Who cares, its da same ******g

****, as long as they not those bootlegs"

And thats da response you're gonna get explaining

What grey market Jordans are to folks.

Like i said before, if u got ethical concerns? Stop

Buying jordans online from anybody.. Da game over

For that, sorry folks. If u dont care about da origin

Of your authentic jordans then continue on with

Your life (da irony is whateva your stance is they're

Both coming from poorly paid 3rd world folks

In emerging folks but thats for another thread) and

Enjoy your sneakers.

thse jokers charge higher than FCNY for their ****. you'd think they'd at least charge more reasonable prices if they are really grey markets smh. I remember some dude and his boy wre buying kicks from there and the guy who worked there didnt even want to budge $10.

 

[jacksodk]

Where's you're proof?? Time and time again you blab. They are fake as is not same factory. Prove it bro or move on. You can't haven't and will not.

By no means am I associated with ninja, but as a past marketing business owner who had contracts with several big name companies like Disney, Samsonite, etc., what Ninja speaks of is true. What proof do you need? It's called do some serious research if you don't believe him. At the end of the day it is about morals and ethics. Either you can get them from the factory to the store, or you get them the factory backdoor, front door or whatever door for much cheaper. If you really want proof, look up an episode on ESPN (I think it was outside the lines) a few months ago that was talking about the issues with counterfeits. The story line was about nike football jerseys and adidas basketball jerseys I believe. NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. It even had the same licensing stickers, sewn names, materials etc. And no, we're not talking about the cheap knock offs. These were the real deal just not "authorized" because these companies didn't have their hands on them. Instead the factories must have cut deals with others to try to ship them off and sneak them in other countries. The organizations did not even admit that these items were fake. They just kept saying "not authorized." Read in between the lines. There are sites that sell the real authentics shoes, jerseys, etc. for cheap from overseas. Many keep closing the site and popping up under new names to avoid the law. Why.....because they are REAL! Notice they don't try to shutdown the spongebob Jordan sites or the orange 7's sites.

 

[greatestgoliath]

Except, perhaps, in a court of law. 




Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a former US mint employee used their access to steal or illegally gain access to printing plates, inks, and everything needed to 
print "unauthorized" currency that is otherwise indistinguishable from legal tender.  Tell me:  what crime would they be charged with?  What would the unauthorized bills be called?  "Grey market money?"  "Early release currency?"  Come on.



The euphemisms are silly and detract from the inherently criminal and illegitimate nature of the product.  


If you want to use an actual industry term, you'd refer to it as "third shift" counterfeiting.   It's nothing new, and it's hardly exclusive to sneakers.


http://www.rebucklaw.co.uk/tag/third-shift/

It's kind of sad, really, that this is what some of you are HOPING to be the origin of these products, so you can try and call them "authentic" (despite never knowing their true origins.)  


I certainly get that many consider this phenomenon to be a "just desert" for a company that, like Apple, has a very storied history of questionable labor practices.  Of course, there's a perfectly legal way to express a discontent for Nike's practices:  stop buying their products.  Buying illegal variants of Nike products isn't a protest; it's just weak-willed.  It shows that you're every bit as prone to Nike's marketing efforts as anyone else, but your form of "rebellion" is to violate the law and, ironically, support low-wage labor that may very well take place under WORSE conditions than the legitimate products.  


Then you have the "variant" buyer who's only looking to stunt, and doesn't care if the product is made ethically or legally so long as it's able to fool and impress passersby.  Anyone in this category is working harder to fool themselves than anyone else.  The same people who used to laugh at the kids who called their spongebob dub zeros "exclusives" rather than fakes are now coming up with all sorts of cute little nicknames and excuses to justify their purchase of illegal merchandise.  

The kids who fronted with those tacky plastic Jordan XI knock offs just wanted to have something for cheap that was difficult and expensive to obtain legitimately.  They wanted to own a product that was sold out, like the South Beach LeBron.  They wanted to buy something today that hasn't been made in 3-4 years.  They saw something they wanted, but they either couldn't afford it or couldn't find it - so they took a shortcut.  And you laughed at them for it.... until you started doing it yourself.  

So you try your very best not to use the dreaded "c" word, because counterfeits are crossing the line... counterfeits are the things you mocked and ridiculed, the things the noobies and budget ballers wear.  No, your "early" pairs are special.  They're not fake.  They're "real."  They're "just as good."  The difference is "imaginary," legal, not practical.  There's no functional difference.  Hell, you could probably return them to Nike and even they might not be able to tell.  

It's a nice little fairy tale, but that's all it is: a possible origin story you tell yourself to feel better about buying illegal replicas.  The fact that people are fighting so hard against the word "counterfeit" betrays just how desperate they are to legitimize something that is inherently illegitimate.  
Imagine that you paid $1,000 for an authentic "defining moments package" only to find out that you'd received "grey market" replicas.  Wouldn't you feel ripped off?  You'd paid for authentic originals.  Suddenly, those "grey market" pairs start to feel a little less than authentic, don't they?



All this fuss to avoid calling something illegal "counterfeit," and to call something illegitimate "authentic."  It's silly.


Your BEST case scenario is that the items are merely considered a "trademark infringement," but the truth of the matter is that you DON'T know whether they're actually made in a "Nike" factory or not or even if they're using 100% identical materials/components.  You don't know that they haven't cut ANY corners.  You certainly don't know that they've passed through the same QA process as legitimate pairs.

Indeed, the only thing you DO know is that they're illegal.

And that's "good enough?"  

I'm glad I got out of "collecting", because if this is where it's headed, it's becoming sadder and more desperate by the day.   You don't NEED to have every single pair of shoes.  You certainly don't NEED to lower yourself to supporting crime just to dupe strangers into thinking that you've got 100% authentic bits of plastic, string, and rubber.  

We created NikeTalk for people who shared common interests.  We created it for people who, like us, loved sports and athletics, who wanted to walk like Run DMC, run like Bo Jackson, and fly like Air Jordan.  We didn't create it for people with a shared interest in supporting crime.




If, based on what you've seen, you'd like to try to make the argument that these "third shift" products difficult to differentiate or perhaps even functionally equivalent to authentic sneakers, fine - but to say they're "just as good" in general terms is a value judgment and comes across as promotion.   For a topic of this nature to be acceptable on NikeTalk, it must exist for educational reasons only, to help consumers AVOID these products and be aware of issue or, perhaps, to discuss the complexities of outsourcing and artificial scarcity.  

Anyone justifying the purchase or use of these illegal replicas is violating NikeTalk rules.  We HAVE to take this seriously, just like we have to take media piracy seriously.

If you want to quibble, split hairs, nitpick for countless wasted hours, so be it - but do so within the aforementioned boundaries.  We're trying to run a respectable community here.  

Justifying the purchase of these illegal products can NOT be tolerated. 

View media item 428932

 

[jacksodk]

View media item 428932

Lol......but seriously. From the quote that you quoted.in am not justifying, just putting some light on the subject.

 

[ninjahood]

Where's you're proof?? Time and time again you blab. They are fake as is not same factory. Prove it bro or move on. You can't haven't and will not.

By no means am I associated with ninja, but as a past marketing business owner who had contracts with several big name companies like Disney, Samsonite, etc., what Ninja speaks of is true. What proof do you need? It's called do some serious research if you don't believe him. At the end of the day it is about morals and ethics. Either you can get them from the factory to the store, or you get them the factory backdoor, front door or whatever door for much cheaper. If you really want proof, look up an episode on ESPN (I think it was outside the lines) a few months ago that was talking about the issues with counterfeits. The story line was about nike football jerseys and adidas basketball jerseys I believe. NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. It even had the same licensing stickers, sewn names, materials etc. And no, we're not talking about the cheap knock offs. These were the real deal just not "authorized" because these companies didn't have their hands on them. Instead the factories must have cut deals with others to try to ship them off and sneak them in other countries. The organizations did not even admit that these items were fake. They just kept saying "not authorized." Read in between the lines. There are sites that sell the real authentics shoes, jerseys, etc. for cheap from overseas. Many keep closing the site and popping up under new names to avoid the law. Why.....because they are REAL! Notice they don't try to shutdown the spongebob Jordan sites or the orange 7's sites.

exactly.

 

[jyung101]

exactly.

Your paragraph still doesn't prove what he's saying.....hersay. I just guess were all supposed to believe ninja. Just because he says so. We know its possible!!!!!!!! What we don't know is if those fake replicas he keeps posting are it. He doesn't know. Neither do you so before you go posting news stories make sure you can certify what he saying. He
Can't certify and neither can you. We don't believe you period. Why on earth would they be so dramatically different if they were made by the same place. Why??

 

[eltouha]

Except, perhaps, in a court of law. 




Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a former US mint employee used their access to steal or illegally gain access to printing plates, inks, and everything needed to 
print "unauthorized" currency that is otherwise indistinguishable from legal tender.  Tell me:  what crime would they be charged with?  What would the unauthorized bills be called?  "Grey market money?"  "Early release currency?"  Come on.



The euphemisms are silly and detract from the inherently criminal and illegitimate nature of the product.  


If you want to use an actual industry term, you'd refer to it as "third shift" counterfeiting.   It's nothing new, and it's hardly exclusive to sneakers.


http://www.rebucklaw.co.uk/tag/third-shift/

It's kind of sad, really, that this is what some of you are HOPING to be the origin of these products, so you can try and call them "authentic" (despite never knowing their true origins.)  


I certainly get that many consider this phenomenon to be a "just desert" for a company that, like Apple, has a very storied history of questionable labor practices.  Of course, there's a perfectly legal way to express a discontent for Nike's practices:  stop buying their products.  Buying illegal variants of Nike products isn't a protest; it's just weak-willed.  It shows that you're every bit as prone to Nike's marketing efforts as anyone else, but your form of "rebellion" is to violate the law and, ironically, support low-wage labor that may very well take place under WORSE conditions than the legitimate products.  


Then you have the "variant" buyer who's only looking to stunt, and doesn't care if the product is made ethically or legally so long as it's able to fool and impress passersby.  Anyone in this category is working harder to fool themselves than anyone else.  The same people who used to laugh at the kids who called their spongebob dub zeros "exclusives" rather than fakes are now coming up with all sorts of cute little nicknames and excuses to justify their purchase of illegal merchandise.  

The kids who fronted with those tacky plastic Jordan XI knock offs just wanted to have something for cheap that was difficult and expensive to obtain legitimately.  They wanted to own a product that was sold out, like the South Beach LeBron.  They wanted to buy something today that hasn't been made in 3-4 years.  They saw something they wanted, but they either couldn't afford it or couldn't find it - so they took a shortcut.  And you laughed at them for it.... until you started doing it yourself.  

So you try your very best not to use the dreaded "c" word, because counterfeits are crossing the line... counterfeits are the things you mocked and ridiculed, the things the noobies and budget ballers wear.  No, your "early" pairs are special.  They're not fake.  They're "real."  They're "just as good."  The difference is "imaginary," legal, not practical.  There's no functional difference.  Hell, you could probably return them to Nike and even they might not be able to tell.  

It's a nice little fairy tale, but that's all it is: a possible origin story you tell yourself to feel better about buying illegal replicas.  The fact that people are fighting so hard against the word "counterfeit" betrays just how desperate they are to legitimize something that is inherently illegitimate.  
Imagine that you paid $1,000 for an authentic "defining moments package" only to find out that you'd received "grey market" replicas.  Wouldn't you feel ripped off?  You'd paid for authentic originals.  Suddenly, those "grey market" pairs start to feel a little less than authentic, don't they?



All this fuss to avoid calling something illegal "counterfeit," and to call something illegitimate "authentic."  It's silly.


Your BEST case scenario is that the items are merely considered a "trademark infringement," but the truth of the matter is that you DON'T know whether they're actually made in a "Nike" factory or not or even if they're using 100% identical materials/components.  You don't know that they haven't cut ANY corners.  You certainly don't know that they've passed through the same QA process as legitimate pairs.

Indeed, the only thing you DO know is that they're illegal.

And that's "good enough?"  

I'm glad I got out of "collecting", because if this is where it's headed, it's becoming sadder and more desperate by the day.   You don't NEED to have every single pair of shoes.  You certainly don't NEED to lower yourself to supporting crime just to dupe strangers into thinking that you've got 100% authentic bits of plastic, string, and rubber.  

We created NikeTalk for people who shared common interests.  We created it for people who, like us, loved sports and athletics, who wanted to walk like Run DMC, run like Bo Jackson, and fly like Air Jordan.  We didn't create it for people with a shared interest in supporting crime.




If, based on what you've seen, you'd like to try to make the argument that these "third shift" products difficult to differentiate or perhaps even functionally equivalent to authentic sneakers, fine - but to say they're "just as good" in general terms is a value judgment and comes across as promotion.   For a topic of this nature to be acceptable on NikeTalk, it must exist for educational reasons only, to help consumers AVOID these products and be aware of issue or, perhaps, to discuss the complexities of outsourcing and artificial scarcity.  

Anyone justifying the purchase or use of these illegal replicas is violating NikeTalk rules.  We HAVE to take this seriously, just like we have to take media piracy seriously.

If you want to quibble, split hairs, nitpick for countless wasted hours, so be it - but do so within the aforementioned boundaries.  We're trying to run a respectable community here.  

Justifying the purchase of these illegal products can NOT be tolerated. 

Firstly, I respect NT's position in terms of the law. I'd never want to cause any issues for this wonderful site, so i'm not really pushing this issue very hard. Most of my posts in this thread have been conciliatory in approach. If i cross any lines, just PM me, i'll happily edit and step back.

a couple notes.

-i don't think your money analogy works. taking the equipment/specs to produce product elsewhere is what produces the poor quality fakes we've all known about for years. we come to the conclusion that the products in question are unauthorized pairs from the same factories on the balance of probability. independent producers tend not to use material like carbon fibre, zoom and high quality leather.

-i don't mock or criticise kids who rock fakes. if that's what they can afford, and it makes them feel good, who am i to judge? also for the nth time i don't buy early release shoes. i have only one pair of "unauthorised" shoes, and that was only because the ray xiii's were impossible for me to get here outside of america (and they by chance were available during a trip to china). regardless of "limitedness", shoes are only worth so much. i do not "collect" anything, and buy shoes only to wear. no one i knows cares about shoes. sneaker culture here is tiny, so no one really cares. i don't pay over retail for ANY shoes.

and lastly, i staunchly oppose anyone flaunting questionably sourced products as anything other than what they are. and since unscrupulous people do this, i have no problem with trying to identify differences to aid buyers, as hard as this is. the word "fake" merely rubs the wrong way here in my opinion.

 

[ninjahood]

exactly.

Your paragraph still doesn't prove what he's saying.....hersay. I just guess were all supposed to believe ninja. Just because he says so. We know its possible!!!!!!!! What we don't know is if those fake replicas he keeps posting are it. He doesn't know. Neither do you so before you go posting news stories make sure you can certify what he saying. He
Can't certify and neither can you. We don't believe you period. Why on earth would they be so dramatically different if they were made by the same place. Why??

stay stuck in your fantasy land then duke,

U gonna just learn da hard way.