FREE Palestine! END the Occupation! STOP the Bombings! EDIT: BEGIN THE BOYCOTTS! PLEASE READ

[texas mayne]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

He didn't choose to put them in danger. If Israel did say that they were going to strike him, then his family chose to stay with him.

Also, just because they may have chosen to stay with him, does not justify their murder at the hands of Israel.

Its funny how people just choose to ignore facts and stay stuck inside their closed minded views.

Trill talk, if I KNOW you are about to do a drive by, the last location I'll be is home.

 

[callhimar]

They were going to be targeted either way, whether it be from missiles from a chopper or gunfire when the seemingly inevitable invasion of Gaza occurs.

I hope Israel doesn't send troops in. It will be horrific.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

[h1][/h1]

We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas [h2]Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled[/h2]
William Sieghart

Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye.

Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they "dangerous Hamas militant gunmen"? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a "militant training camp" but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there.

This distinction is crucial because while the horrific scenes in Gaza and Israel play themselves out on our television screens, a war of words is being fought that is clouding our understanding of the realities on the ground.

Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now.

The story begins nearly three years ago when Change and Reform - Hamas's political party - unexpectedly won the first free and fair elections in the Arab world, on a platform of ending endemic corruption and improving the almost non-existent public services in Gaza and the West Bank. Against a divided opposition this ostensibly religious party impressed the predominantly secular community to win with 42 per cent of the vote.

Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.

In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style. Hamas relies on secular voters too much to do that. People still listen to pop music, watch television and women still choose whether to wear the veil or not.

The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.

The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.

Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.

When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position. Two months ago the Israeli Defence Forces broke the ceasefire by entering Gaza and beginning the cycle of killing again. In the Palestinian narrative each round of rocket attacks is a response to Israeli attacks. In the Israeli narrative it is the other way round.

But what does it mean when Mr Barak talks of destroying Hamas? Does it mean killing the 42 per cent of Palestinians who voted for it? Does it mean reoccupying the Gaza strip that Israel withdrew from so painfully three years ago? Or does it mean permanently separating the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, politically and geographically? And for those whose mantra is Israeli security, what sort of threat do the three quarters of a million young people growing up in Gaza with an implacable hatred of those who starve and bomb them pose?

It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions. But the events of the past few days seem to have made this more unlikely than ever. That is the challenge for the new administration in Washington and for its European allies.

William Sieghart is chairman of Forward Thinking, an independent conflict resolution agency

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ecehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ecehttp://www.timesonline.co...butors/article5420584.ece
Great read.

 

[martdizzle23]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

[h1][/h1]

We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas [h2]Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled[/h2]
William Sieghart

Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye.

Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they "dangerous Hamas militant gunmen"? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a "militant training camp" but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there.

This distinction is crucial because while the horrific scenes in Gaza and Israel play themselves out on our television screens, a war of words is being fought that is clouding our understanding of the realities on the ground.

Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now.

The story begins nearly three years ago when Change and Reform - Hamas's political party - unexpectedly won the first free and fair elections in the Arab world, on a platform of ending endemic corruption and improving the almost non-existent public services in Gaza and the West Bank. Against a divided opposition this ostensibly religious party impressed the predominantly secular community to win with 42 per cent of the vote.

Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.

In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style. Hamas relies on secular voters too much to do that. People still listen to pop music, watch television and women still choose whether to wear the veil or not.

The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.

The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.

Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.

When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position. Two months ago the Israeli Defence Forces broke the ceasefire by entering Gaza and beginning the cycle of killing again. In the Palestinian narrative each round of rocket attacks is a response to Israeli attacks. In the Israeli narrative it is the other way round.

But what does it mean when Mr Barak talks of destroying Hamas? Does it mean killing the 42 per cent of Palestinians who voted for it? Does it mean reoccupying the Gaza strip that Israel withdrew from so painfully three years ago? Or does it mean permanently separating the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, politically and geographically? And for those whose mantra is Israeli security, what sort of threat do the three quarters of a million young people growing up in Gaza with an implacable hatred of those who starve and bomb them pose?

It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions. But the events of the past few days seem to have made this more unlikely than ever. That is the challenge for the new administration in Washington and for its European allies.

William Sieghart is chairman of Forward Thinking, an independent conflict resolution agency

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ecehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ecehttp://www.timesonline.co...butors/article5420584.ecehttp://www.timesonline.co...butors/article5420584.ece

Great read.


agreed

 

[drewackall2]

free palestine

 

[rash]

Originally Posted by SneakerHeathen

Originally Posted by The Harlem Shake

Originally Posted by whiterails

Nice bimmer

You're apparently an ignorant idiot. Prayers to all those lost.

Relax, all our prayers and protests wont make any difference. Nothing will ever change, accept it.

its sad to say that its true...

ze jews are just too powerful in this world. theres only about 7 or 8 million compared to nearly 1 billion muslims and yet they are still kickin butt. What canwe do...

 

[callhimar]

ze jews are just too powerful in this world. theres only about 7 or 8 million compared to nearly 1 billion muslims and yet they are still kickin butt. What can we do...
The one billion Muslims are also scattered across thirty plus countries.

It has little to do with religion, much to do with nationalism.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

I am glad you guys liked the article. I do not condone Hamas' use of violence, but they were created and became such a force as a reaction of Israelioccupation and ehtnic cleansing of Palestinians. This kind of war crime by Israel on the latest assault in Gaza will only strengthen them more.

I am going to a big protest here on Saturday. I will tell you how it goes.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by ReliantJ

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

ze jews are just too powerful in this world. theres only about 7 or 8 million compared to nearly 1 billion muslims and yet they are still kickin butt. What can we do...

The one billion Muslims are also scattered across thirty plus countries.

It has little to do with religion, much to do with nationalism.

I doubt Muslims in Indonesia are sending bombs to Palestine.


Thats what I meant. You can't compare the two off sheer numbers.

 

[paliplaya2010]

Originally Posted by paliplaya2010

lets use common sense guys. almost 400 dead in gaza, how many died in Israel? 3 maybe 4? lets look at the size of gaza and the size of israel and who backs each of them. Israel is fully backed by usa and gaza has who? Hamas? ill let yall make your own judgment on this one

this guy has a good point

 

[lemurkicks23]

Originally Posted by SneakerHeathen

I'm done....



The first statement I made in this thread was all I really needed to say, talking about this on Niketalk wont solve anything...


I've stated how I've felt about this conflict in numerous other threads, I'm wasting my time now...




Praise the X I, 'In š

 

[repinqueens]

It's funny that everyone chooses to ignore Britain's role and just paints america as the ones "at fault" for the middle east crisis....

 

[mo matik]

.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

[h1]Israel uses YouTube, Twitter to share its point of view

(CNN) -- Israel has taken its barrage of airstrikes in Gaza to the Web, creating a YouTube channel this week to post footage of its air force dropping bombs on Hamas targets.[/h1]

The Israel Defense Forces has posted 16 videos so far of its recent airstrikes in Gaza.

An initial message by the Israel Defense Forces posted on the channel, youtube.com/user/idfnadesk, said Israel wanted to use YouTube to "help us bring our message to the world" with "exclusive footage showing the IDF's operation success" in Gaza.

An IDF spokesman said YouTube was a way to get that message "to as many as we can," though he declined to comment further.

The YouTube channel is just one multimedia platform Israel is using to spread its message on the recent campaign in Gaza, which began Saturday.

The Israeli Consulate in New York also launched a Twitter feed Monday, which it has used to solicit questions from users for a virtual press conference.

The YouTube posts started Monday, with black-and-white aerial military video of Israeli aircraft striking "rockets in transit" and "terrorist smuggling tunnels." Another video in color showed what are identified as Israeli trucks transporting aid into Gaza.

The statement, still posted as of Tuesday night, said YouTube had taken down some of the IDF videos but, "due to blogger and viewer support, YouTube has returned some of the footage they removed."

The statement was removed sometime Wednesday, replaced with one that reads in part, "We thank you for visiting us and will continue to update this site with documentation of the IDF's humane action and operational success in operation 'Cast Lead.' "

By Wednesday afternoon, the channel had 5,600 subscribers and 16 videos posted. The most popular was a video titled "Israeli Air Force Strikes Hamas Government Complex," which shows a large compound with three structures methodically leveled in an air assault Tuesday. Another video shows a building identified as the office of Hamas leader Ismail Haniya in crosshairs before disappearing in a dark cloud of smoke.

According to its Web site, YouTube has a policy that prohibits "inappropriate content," including violent images. While YouTube wouldn't specifically address the IDF statement, a company official said the site relies on its subscribers to flag videos considered inappropriate.

"We review all flagged content quickly, and if we find that a video does violate the guidelines, we remove it, on average in under an hour," said Victoria Grand, YouTube's policy chief. "Occasionally, a video flagged by users is mistakenly taken down. When this is brought to our attention, we review the content and take appropriate action, which may include restoring videos that had been removed."

The New York Israeli Consulate's Twitter feed has picked up more than 2,600 followers since it launched Monday to share its point of view with a younger demographic, said David Saranga, consul for media and public affairs.

"We saw that there is a big debate, a very vivid debate about the situation in Gaza, and we wanted to bring our point of view, we wanted to share it with people on Twitter," Saranga said.

Using the abbreviated language of 140 characters, the feed takes in comments from users and answers their questions on a variety of issues, from the possibility of negotiations with Hamas -- "we R pro nego...we talk only w/ ppl who accept R rt 2 live" -- to how many rockets have hit Israel in the past six month -- "ovr 500," according to Saranga, who handles nearly all of the questions.

"We wanted to outreach to the young generation, who does not read the conventional media, but is still interested in events in the Middle East, so we thought this is a good way to be an official voice for the questions people are asking," he said.

Israeli airstrikes in the territory began Saturday, in what it calls an effort to halt the firing of rockets into southern Israel. More than 390 Palestinians have been killed, according to Palestinian medical sources, and 1,900 people have been wounded, including 400 women and children.

Israeli sources say four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire.

Haniya, whose office in Gaza was struck overnight, said Israel needed to "stop attacking and killing our children, women and men."

The Israeli military says it is targeting only Hamas militants, which it says are responsible for the barrage of rocket fire into southern Israel. Each side blames the other for violating an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, which formally expired December 19 but had been weakening for months.

Israel cannot depend on it's own supporters for representation?

And on top of all that, they are going to post videos of bombings killing people?

For once people are recognizing that the offensive is wrong, and are really investigating the conflict.

And because of that, Israel has to go on youtube and represent itself in the debate. Hilarious.

 

[devildog1776]

israel needs to be " wiped off the map"

 

[callhimar]

It's funny that everyone chooses to ignore Britain's role and just paints america as the ones "at fault" for the middle east crisis....
Its funny that you come in here just to make slick comments and blanket statements, and then when someone responds to one of them you justcompletely ignore what they've said. You clearly don't want to know any more than you already think you do.

 

[repinqueens]

It's funny that my "blanket statements" are correct

you wanna talk about ignoring comments when every single person on the palestinian side can't answer fade's question

what actual RIGHT do the palestinians have to the land.... as opposed to ottomans, Turks, or jews etc.


if a group of people were firing rockets into just about ANY European country, and that country went to war with those firing the rockets, they wouldn'thave to be politically correct about what they were doing and they wouldn't be criticized

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by repinqueens

It's funny that my "blanket statements" are correct

you wanna talk about ignoring comments when every single person on the palestinian side can't answer fade's question

what actual RIGHT do the palestinians have to the land.... as opposed to ottomans, Turks, or jews etc.


if a group of people were firing rockets into just about ANY European country, and that country went to war with those firing the rockets, they wouldn't have to be politically correct about what they were doing and they wouldn't be criticized

The Palestinians are the ones who have the right to the land because they've been living there until they were kicked out of their homes. The indigenousJews who always lived in Palestine in peace also have the right to the land, as do the Palestinian Christians. The zionists occupiers who came to the landearly in the 20th century and took it from others don't have the right to the land.

 

[brownsuga1]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.

I mean surely the thread starter wanted to spark a debate on the topic, but I doubt in any manner it was supposed to turn out like this.

Frankly it doesn't matter who you support at this point. Right and wrong does not matter anymore.

What matters is the death toll.

And I think we can all agree that it is an unfair battle.

I think we can contribute global terrorism at least partially to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

I think we can contribute the lack of education and development in that region to the conflict. Yes the same lack of education and development that fuels ignorance.

And I think you're stupid if you disagree.

You my friend, might have made the smartest comment in niketalk history.

To say what Israel has done is not wrong is completely ignorant of you to think/say. They have occupied a group of people who were there before them. And theU.S. giving them weapons...makes me sick. And the Palestinians killing innocent Israeli's is wrong too. They are ignorant for killing innocent people.

There are wrongs on both sides. Stop taking sides and realize we are all humans. Stop believing in all this religion crap and think for yourself. I believe inGod and faith but not religion. Look at what it has done to us. You really think God would want this? You really think God would want his teachings to tear usapart? IF thats the God you want to believe in then go right ahead. If what I'm saying makes me go to hell, then so be it.

I REFUSE to think of myself as superior to someone else because of my religion.

To all my Muslims and Jews out there, for once, dont make your opinion bias. Don't make this a Jew vs Muslim thing. We're all PEOPLE. i want my kids tosee others as people and not their religion. Hopefully, one day Palestine will exist. And hopefully Israel and Palestine can coexist together. Call me adreamer if you, but in times like these, maybe dreaming is the best option we have.

 

[ghostwriter]

You guys know that Arabs & Jews are first cousins. They are basically related, hence the resemblance. All this fear & hate mongoring is not helpful orconstructive to anyone.

We are all brothers & sisters and we should respect each other *wishful thinking*.

I personally don't think Arabs & Jews hate each other. It's just power hungry leaders who use religion as a wedge. Arabs & Jews had peacefullycoexisted in Palestine before WWII, until the British thought they had the right to change the world map.

 

[repinqueens]

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

You guys know that Arabs & Jews are first cousins. They are basically related, hence the resemblance. All this fear & hate mongoring is not helpful or constructive to anyone.

We are all brothers & sisters and we should respect each other *wishful thinking*.

I personally don't think Arabs & Jews hate each other. It's just power hungry leaders who use religion as a wedge. Arabs & Jews had peacefully coexisted in Palestine before WWII, until the British thought they had the right to change the world map.

basically...

it's not muslims vs. jews... I know jews that support israel that don't give a flying **** about religion. it's a saftey/occupation issue, not areligious issue. You don't see muslims and jews blowing eachother up in nyc u know???

 

[deepinthajeep]

Why the Hammas don't like the Jewish?

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

You guys know that Arabs & Jews are first cousins. They are basically related, hence the resemblance. All this fear & hate mongoring is not helpful or constructive to anyone.

We are all brothers & sisters and we should respect each other *wishful thinking*.

I personally don't think Arabs & Jews hate each other. It's just power hungry leaders who use religion as a wedge. Arabs & Jews had peacefully coexisted in Palestine before WWII, until the British thought they had the right to change the world map.

I don't mean to bring the Bible up or anything but I'm with you on this.

Isaac and Ishmael anyone?

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by repinqueens

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

You guys know that Arabs & Jews are first cousins. They are basically related, hence the resemblance. All this fear & hate mongoring is not helpful or constructive to anyone.

We are all brothers & sisters and we should respect each other *wishful thinking*.

I personally don't think Arabs & Jews hate each other. It's just power hungry leaders who use religion as a wedge. Arabs & Jews had peacefully coexisted in Palestine before WWII, until the British thought they had the right to change the world map.

basically...

it's not muslims vs. jews... I know jews that support israel that don't give a flying **** about religion. it's a saftey/occupation issue, not a religious issue. You don't see muslims and jews blowing eachother up in nyc u know???

The British promised the land to both parties, who then had to pretty much fight for it, which was unfair because there was a large population already livingthere, who could have made a home for themselves. This opportunity was crushed by the Zionist movement.

People need to realize that this has nothing to do with religion, at all. It has everything to do with the illegal occupation of land by the Israeli's.

It's funny that my "blanket statements" are correct

you wanna talk about ignoring comments when every single person on the palestinian side can't answer fade's question

what actual RIGHT do the palestinians have to the land.... as opposed to ottomans, Turks, or jews etc.


if a group of people were firing rockets into just about ANY European country, and that country went to war with those firing the rockets, they wouldn't have to be politically correct about what they were doing and they wouldn't be criticized

In your mind, of course everything you say is correct.

There have been about 6 responses to Fede's question, actually.

They have a right to a home, a right to have free elections, and a right to not be forced to live in a society that practices apartheid. So you're sayingthat Israel doesn't have to be politically correct when killing 430 people and injuring thousands.

Hamas isn't right, or handling the situation well by firing rockets constantly, and Israel is not either when the do things like this. Honestly, this isdoing more harm than good because now you have people who, just a few weeks ago, would have been completely against Hamas' actions and are now almostseeing it from their perspective. All it does is garner more and more support for Hamas by making them martyrs.

 

[paliplaya2010]

Originally Posted by repinqueens

It's funny that my "blanket statements" are correct

you wanna talk about ignoring comments when every single person on the palestinian side can't answer fade's question

what actual RIGHT do the palestinians have to the land.... as opposed to ottomans, Turks, or jews etc.


if a group of people were firing rockets into just about ANY European country, and that country went to war with those firing the rockets, they wouldn't have to be politically correct about what they were doing and they wouldn't be criticized

what RIGHT did native americans have to the usa? maybe the fact that they were there first and lived there for centuries. there you go fede'squestion is answered