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[CP1708]

Now Ska, shoots too much is NOT a skill set tho.

I'm talking about overall game, things he can and can't do on a court. Range, handles, footwork, speed, agility, IQ, all that.

Ball hogging don't count. Your number stay the same, or does it go up if you remove that negative?

Skill/ability only.

 

[CP1708]

Paul has been compared by a lot of peeps on NT, hence me bringing him up. Same as those other names too.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="Maximus Meridius"]Hol' up ska is saying Kobe wouldn't be who he is if he didn't work as hard. You can say that about any all-time great athlete. [/quote]No, I'm saying he wouldn't be where he is without the extremely good fortune he has had in terms of both coaching and teammates, both gifts that he had nothing to do with.

The hard work and dedication he deserves credit for; I've always said that. If he wasn't as hard working as he is, maybe he doesn't even make it past those 3 chips w/ Shaq; maybe the Lakers give up on him long before the Pau trade. Actually, if he's not as hard working as he is, maybe JWest isn't so attracted him in the very first place and doesn't try to pull him from the Hornets.

No, he deserves credit for his intensity, competitiveness, conditioning, all that.

 

[darthska]

Now Ska, shoots too much is NOT a skill set tho.

I'm talking about overall game, things he can and can't do on a court. Range, handles, footwork, speed, agility, IQ, all that.

Ball hogging don't count. Your number stay the same, or does it go up if you remove that negative?

Skill/ability only.

Does not compute. Ballhogging is absolutely part of 'basketball ability'. A guy out there breaking ankles like nobody's business, stripping rebounds out of opponent's hands, and chucking (literally) every single time he touches the rock is NOT as talented as another guy who breaks those same ankles and grabs those same boards but shoots maybe every 6th or 7th time he touches the ball. That second guy is more talented in basketball terms.

 

[CP1708]

, no ballhogging is not a skill. Flaw, yes, skill, no.

Kobe can dribble. Can Ron dribble? No, he can't. Kobe can shoot 100 times in a game. So could Ron, technically speaking if he wanted too and the coach was dead.

Get it? Ron COULD shoot all night, but he can NOT dribble, no matter how hard he tries. In fact, I would prefer he shoot 100 times over dribbling for 4 seconds.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

[quote name="Maximus Meridius"]Hol' up ska is saying Kobe wouldn't be who he is if he didn't work as hard. You can say that about any all-time great athlete.

No, I'm saying he wouldn't be where he is without the extremely good fortune he has had in terms of both coaching and teammates, both gifts that he had nothing to do with.

The hard work and dedication he deserves credit for; I've always said that. If he wasn't as hard working as he is, maybe he doesn't even make it past those 3 chips w/ Shaq; maybe the Lakers give up on him long before the Pau trade. Actually, if he's not as hard working as he is, maybe JWest isn't so attracted him in the very first place and doesn't try to pull him from the Hornets.

No, he deserves credit for his intensity, competitiveness, conditioning, all that.[/quote]

Of course he had nothing to do with it. Thats what great organizations are supposed to do though. Surround your best players with talent. I don't think people give Kobe credit for what the front office has done, at least I don't see it.

I like Paul Pierce a lot, always have but him and Kobe are on 2 different levels. People kill me with that "If Vince Carter, Pierce or TMac had Shaq....". You can go back and throw a bunch of "what if's" at anybody's career. Yeah he was fortunate. So was every athlete that has multiple rings.

 

[CP1708]

I have somethin for you, you will enjoy this. Follow me here

You brought up Pierce gettin his help, and winnin a title. Boom, he can do what Kobe does. May we look at that?

Paul, Ray, Rondo, KG. Pau and LO will play with KG, that's big man stuff.

Rondo, Allen, Paul? Need quick dudes to work on them. Kobe, Fish, Sasha, Ariza Walton, Vlad Rad. *tire screeches*

Ariza? He was dead that series, barely even touched the court. He was no good to us.

So, Kobe and Fish switched on and off Rondo and Allen, depending on pick and rolls and such, so for the majority of that series, who guarded Paul Pierce?

Luke Walton, and Vlad Rad.

Who got Finals MVP?

Oh.


Now, who might I ask, guarded Kobe in that series? Care to see the list?

James Posey, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Rondo, and Pierce.

Now, not for long stretches of course, but possessions here or there Pierce would get switched on Kobe, but for 48 minutes? Hell no, he would take time "guarding" Luke. Musta been nice huh?

Kobe spent time chasing Ray, or hounding Rondo, and sometimes banging with Paul when switched, but for the most part, when the Lakers had the ball, KOBE was the focus of their D. When the Celtics had the ball, the Lakers did NOT focus on Paul, they had other moves/plays to worry about. Ray screens, KG post ups, Rondo pick and rolls.


Now, 2010, Ron comes in. Ron, is not fast anymore, he can't chase Ray, and damn sure can't chase Rondo. Who can he guard? Paul. How did Paul do in that series? Was he even CLOSE to his 2008 self?


You see, Kobe has had (as you say) the platinum life. Shaq, and Pau. Tell me tho, what PERIMETER help has Kobe had? No handles Ariza? Ron? Sasha? Shannon Breezy? Who has LA had, in 17 Kobe years, that could create and do work like Kobe? The answer, Eddie Jones, for 2 years.

When Kobe plays the Spurs in the playoffs, Duncan can't guard him, he gotta get Shaq, or Pau. But Bruce Bowen, he can guard Kobe just fine, right? Anyone else for Bowen to worry about?
When LA face the Rockets. McGrady, Ron, AND Battier focus ALL SERIES LONG on Kobe. Sort of interesting, ain't it?

Has Kobe had someone to help take the defense off him?

Miami plays Boston all the time. Lebron guard Pierce all series, or he take time to guard Rondo as well? Why? Why don't Miami worry about Pierce torching them as much as working on Rondo, with their best defender?

If Miami played the Lakers in a series, in ANY year the last dozen. Wade, Allen, Shane, Bron. Would they not, in fact, take turns guarding/beating on Kobe ALL SERIES LONG, while being able to rest while the other guy guards him for a stretch? Would Kobe, have the luxury of another perimeter player helping him out, to pull the defense off of him?

You find that interesting, or think I am full of ****?

Oh and for the cheap seats, Mike? Had Scottie, on D, and on O. Who would Miami or Boston guard there? Could Mike take some time to chill here and there, and let another perimeter player do work?

See with bigs, it isn't always the same. You can dump it into them, sure, but the bigs defend bigs. That's not on Kobe, or his man defending him to worry about. On the perimter, he faces the #1 defender of EVERY team. Paul Pierce, does not. Not with Rondo or Allen on the team. Neat huh?


Kobe is 34, Pierce is 35. So last year, Pierce was 34. Was his season last year anything near Kobe's this year? How bout when PP was 33, and Kobe was 33, same production?

Could I not, in fact, make the argument that at 34, Kobe is extending his legacy as a player, while Pierce had tailed off pretty good? Still solid, sure. Has good games once, twice a week. But (so far) half a season at this same level, in fact, Kobe is BETTER this year, than several of his younger years.

And without Phil.

your thoughts?

 

[westcoastsfinest]

I have somethin for you, you will enjoy this. Follow me here

You brought up Pierce gettin his help, and winnin a title. Boom, he can do what Kobe does. May we look at that?

Paul, Ray, Rondo, KG. Pau and LO will play with KG, that's big man stuff.

Rondo, Allen, Paul? Need quick dudes to work on them. Kobe, Fish, Sasha, Ariza Walton, Vlad Rad. *tire screeches*

Ariza? He was dead that series, barely even touched the court. He was no good to us.

So, Kobe and Fish switched on and off Rondo and Allen, depending on pick and rolls and such, so for the majority of that series, who guarded Paul Pierce?

Luke Walton, and Vlad Rad.

Who got Finals MVP?

Oh.


Now, who might I ask, guarded Kobe in that series? Care to see the list?

James Posey, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Rondo, and Pierce.

Now, not for long stretches of course, but possessions here or there Pierce would get switched on Kobe, but for 48 minutes? Hell no, he would take time "guarding" Luke. Musta been nice huh?

Kobe spent time chasing Ray, or hounding Rondo, and sometimes banging with Paul when switched, but for the most part, when the Lakers had the ball, KOBE was the focus of their D. When the Celtics had the ball, the Lakers did NOT focus on Paul, they had other moves/plays to worry about. Ray screens, KG post ups, Rondo pick and rolls.


Now, 2010, Ron comes in. Ron, is not fast anymore, he can't chase Ray, and damn sure can't chase Rondo. Who can he guard? Paul. How did Paul do in that series? Was he even CLOSE to his 2008 self?


You see, Kobe has had (as you say) the platinum life. Shaq, and Pau. Tell me tho, what PERIMETER help has Kobe had? No handles Ariza? Ron? Sasha? Shannon Breezy? Who has LA had, in 17 Kobe years, that could create and do work like Kobe? The answer, Eddie Jones, for 2 years.

When Kobe plays the Spurs in the playoffs, Duncan can't guard him, he gotta get Shaq, or Pau. But Bruce Bowen, he can guard Kobe just fine, right? Anyone else for Bowen to worry about?
When LA face the Rockets. McGrady, Ron, AND Battier focus ALL SERIES LONG on Kobe. Sort of interesting, ain't it?

Has Kobe had someone to help take the defense off him?

Miami plays Boston all the time. Lebron guard Pierce all series, or he take time to guard Rondo as well? Why? Why don't Miami worry about Pierce torching them as much as working on Rondo, with their best defender?

If Miami played the Lakers in a series, in ANY year the last dozen. Wade, Allen, Shane, Bron. Would they not, in fact, take turns guarding/beating on Kobe ALL SERIES LONG, while being able to rest while the other guy guards him for a stretch? Would Kobe, have the luxury of another perimeter player helping him out, to pull the defense off of him?

You find that interesting, or think I am full of ****?

Oh and for the cheap seats, Mike? Had Scottie, on D, and on O. Who would Miami or Boston guard there? Could Mike take some time to chill here and there, and let another perimeter player do work?

See with bigs, it isn't always the same. You can dump it into them, sure, but the bigs defend bigs. That's not on Kobe, or his man defending him to worry about. On the perimter, he faces the #1 defender of EVERY team. Paul Pierce, does not. Not with Rondo or Allen on the team. Neat huh?


Kobe is 34, Pierce is 35. So last year, Pierce was 34. Was his season last year anything near Kobe's this year? How bout when PP was 33, and Kobe was 33, same production?

Could I not, in fact, make the argument that at 34, Kobe is extending his legacy as a player, while Pierce had tailed off pretty good? Still solid, sure. Has good games once, twice a week. But (so far) half a season at this same level, in fact, Kobe is BETTER this year, than several of his younger years.

And without Phil.

your thoughts?

 

[grandtheftbike]

whats going on in here?

 

[kalikid23]

whats going on in here?

Oh nothing....... Just a bunch of Jimmies being Rustled.

 

[CP1708]

Nothing rustled. Two guys talkin a subject from all angles without getting all emotional about things. Just sharing views and such, what message boards are all about.

 

[MambaMentality824]

That's what I'm talking about, man. This dude's career is the very definition of Silver PLATINUM Platter.

I mentioned Shaq and Pau and Bynum and Horry and Ariza... as if the wonderful talent of his teammates is all he has been gifted w/ this whole time. Dude played w/ THE GREATEST COACH EVER, and I completely left that out.

Pierce finally gets a couple high caliber teammates and a decent coach, and... ? Bam, 2 Finals, 1 ring.

How is this not clear as day to everyone? I don't understand. People want to build an argument that other talents along Kobe's level have had equally talented teammates and coaches... and it's simply not true. People want to build the argument that Kobe has had to suffer as much as his peers, and it's just... no, man.

I.

Clearly.

Don't understand.

The need for those arguments.

Right, so Kobe is the only all time great to benefit from great teammates. Magic Johnson didn't play with Worthy, Kareem, Cooper etc.? He wasn't coached by an all time great in Pat Riley? MJ didn't play alongside HOF teammates in Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman etc? He wasn't coached by Phil Jackson as well. LeBron, for all his greatness in Cleveland simply could not win a championship not matter how hard he tried. And Lebron is viewed as the ultimate team player (rightfully so). It wasn't until he bolted and decided to join with fellow superstars Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh was he able to win. The same can be said for Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Shaq etc. Bottom line is these players are only going to reach that elite level of team success if they are properly surrounded with the talent that is going to help them get it done. Yeah, Kobe has been extremely fortunate in his career, but when it comes down to it so has every other damn "all time great". You can't use that as a knock against Kobe if you aren't going to do it for everyone else. Fact of the matter is, those great teammates is what propels all these players I mentioned into the all time great category. Just because AI, Vince, Paul etc. weren't blessed with the same talent doesn't mean they would have been able accomplish the same exact feats Kobe did in his career, like you so often seem to imply. Hell, where is AI right now? T-Mac? What kind of player is Vince Carter at this point? Sure they might have won a few of those championships with Shaq earlier on (still debatable), but where would the Lakers be now if those dudes were on the team instead of Kobe? I feel like if Kobe was never able to win a championship after Shaq than many of these arguments would have great credibility. But he proved that a team can be built around him and his style of play and succeed. So yeah, those 00 to 03 teams may have had the same success with those other guys. But in 09-10 would the Lakers still be winning championships if we were built around AI or TMac? Not a chance in hell. That's all stuff you definitely have to take into account.

And also that was a great point by CP. Kobe has indeed had great big men his whole career but his fellow guard talent has been absolutely underwhelming up until this year. That definitely counts for something as he has been counted on to shoulder the load from the perimeter for over 17 years, very hard to do.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

CP made some GREAT points as far as Kobe on defense.

 

[CP1708]

CP always makes great points, let's just be honest with each other.

 

[Chester McFloppy]

CP always makes great points, let's just be honest with each other.

 

[kalikid23]

That's what I'm talking about, man. This dude's career is the very definition of Silver PLATINUM Platter.

I mentioned Shaq and Pau and Bynum and Horry and Ariza... as if the wonderful talent of his teammates is all he has been gifted w/ this whole time. Dude played w/ THE GREATEST COACH EVER, and I completely left that out.

Pierce finally gets a couple high caliber teammates and a decent coach, and... ? Bam, 2 Finals, 1 ring.

How is this not clear as day to everyone? I don't understand. People want to build an argument that other talents along Kobe's level have had equally talented teammates and coaches... and it's simply not true. People want to build the argument that Kobe has had to suffer as much as his peers, and it's just... no, man.

I.

Clearly.

Don't understand.

The need for those arguments.

Right, so Kobe is the only all time great to benefit from great teammates. Magic Johnson didn't play with Worthy, Kareem, Cooper etc.? He wasn't coached by an all time great in Pat Riley? MJ didn't play alongside HOF teammates in Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman etc? He wasn't coached by Phil Jackson as well. LeBron, for all his greatness in Cleveland simply could not win a championship not matter how hard he tried. And Lebron is viewed as the ultimate team player (rightfully so). It wasn't until he bolted and decided to join with fellow superstars Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh was he able to win. The same can be said for Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Shaq etc. Bottom line is these players are only going to reach that elite level of team success if they are properly surrounded with the talent that is going to help them get it done. Yeah, Kobe has been extremely fortunate in his career, but when it comes down to it so has every other damn "all time great". You can't use that as a knock against Kobe if you aren't going to do it for everyone else. Fact of the matter is, those great teammates is what propels all these players I mentioned into the all time great category. Just because AI, Vince, Paul etc. weren't blessed with the same talent doesn't mean they would have been able accomplish the same exact feats Kobe did in his career, like you so often seem to imply. Hell, where is AI right now? T-Mac? What kind of player is Vince Carter at this point? Sure they might have won a few of those championships with Shaq earlier on (still debatable), but where would the Lakers be now if those dudes were on the team instead of Kobe? That's all stuff you definitely have to take into account.

And also that was a great point by CP. Kobe has indeed had great big men his whole career but his fellow guard talent has been absolutely underwhelming up until this year. That definitely counts for something as he has been counted on to shoulder the load from the perimeter for over 17 years, very hard to do.

THIS/

This is what I been telling everyone who keeps bringing up the Kobe had Shaq and kobe had this and that argument...
There is a reason why everyone is trying to put together these "Super Teams"

 

[MambaMentality824]

Edit: Didn't mean to post again.

 

[trickster360cj]

So I see Pau is coming off the bench tonight. Do yall think this is permanent?

 

[westcoastsfinest]

So I see Pau is coming off the bench tonight. Do yall think this is permanent?

Yeah until he gets traded.

 

[kingjaffejo]

I really hope its a Alex Smith/Colin Kaepernick situation....where _'Antoni is stringing Pau along like the spot is still his when
everyone knows his spot is good as gone

 

[grandtheftbike]

CP always makes great points, let's just be honest with each other.

id like to see pp, tmac, vince, ai, etc make it to the playoffs with the 05-06 team :x

7th place but still

 

[noblekane]

getting pizza tonight to watch the team get smashed by the heat lol

lakers by 13 tonight

 

[MVP]

^Going to Duffy's tonight with a bunch of Heat fan co-workers tonight to watch, I'll be forever alone, don't let me down Lakers Luckily I have the next 2 days off to diffuse the ether if we get smacked.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Yeah until he gets traded.

unless he shows up as the "real" pau... not this soft, weak, only-shoot-threes type player

 

[essential1]

What kind of contract will Kobe have/ get from the Lakers when it's up?
Essential?

1 Year Max. With probably a player option for a second year.