- Oct 24, 2010
- 94,426
- 33,490
hes DPOY tho bruh!!!
2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by big j 33,
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No one's said he's DPOY though. Almost every single person has said he's taken steps back defensively this year.
Rest might be too late for Pacers.
Rest might be too late for Pacers.
A week after getting embarrassed by the San Antonio Spurs, the Indiana Pacers came to the realization that they have to pace themselves.
Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
On Wednesday, Indiana coach Frank Vogel raised eyebrows around the NBA when he announced he would rest all five of his starters against the Milwaukee Bucks. This, after he benched his Defensive Player of the Year candidate Roy Hibbert, who is one of the largest human beings in American sport, in the second half of Sunday's blowout because he "looked worn down."
The Pacers are taking a breather for the first time this season. The Spurs have been doing this for years. The Pacers wouldn't be the first team to piggyback the Spurs. Gregg Popovich rests his stars in the regular season because it's the smart thing to do, even if it's not the most macho thing to do. (If you haven't noticed, the Miami Heat have told Dwyane Wade to sit 27 games this season -- and counting).
We're learning that rest is an essential ingredient to long-term success, as we've learned through injury technology like Catapult Sports. This line of thinking is taking hold in the NBA.
The Pacers are resting up. But is it too late?
The damage might be already done.
Weary warriors
There's a reason the Pacers' starting five has looked weary. Before Wednesday's night off, Paul George, David West and Hibbert hadn't missed a game all season. None. George Hill sat out all of five games and Lance Stephenson missed just two. The team's starting lineup had played a whopping total of 71 games together this season, more than any other starting unit in the league.
Meanwhile, the Spurs have used 26 different starting lineups and their longest-tenured starting five has played just 27 games. And they're winning more than anybody.
All in all, Indiana's starting five has played an enormous amount of minutes in its championship quest. Two years ago, our own Henry Abbott dug into whether playing heavy minutes has ever worked for an individual in a title chase and what he found was fascinating. Of the nearly 100 players who eclipsed the 3,000-minute mark in the regular season since 2004, none had ever won a championship while doing that. And that was just the beginning. (Read more here.)
"Heavy five" lineups
But what about lineups? Is there a similar trend for teams whose best five guys log a ton of minutes?
Normally, we'd interpret heavy minutes as a good thing, right? A high number of minutes for a five-man crew means that they're healthy and they can develop finely tuned chemistry that comes only with lots of shared experiences.
But I wanted to test it. So I looked at the top five players in minutes played for every team in the StatsCube database, which goes back to the 1996-97 season. We'll call these quintets the team's "heavy five." The Pacers' "heavy five" has played a sum of 12,606 minutes. Where does that rank in the league? Third most. Only the Portland Trail Blazers (13,341 minutes) and the Detroit Pistons (12,678 minutes) have a quintet that has logged more. (Notice, by the way, that all three of these teams have fallen off since the All-Star break).
So this raises a question: Has a team that ranked top three in "heavy five" minutes ever won a title?
Not since 1997. Each of the past 17 champs didn't get there by riding their "heavy five" like the Pacers.
Some Pacers-like teams have come close, but they haven't won it all. For example, the 2012 Oklahoma City Thunder's "heavy five" played more minutes than any other team, but they flamed out in five games against the Heat. The 2004-05 Pistons ranked second in "heavy five" minutes and fell to the Spurs in the championship, as well. The 2009-10 and 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers squads ranked fifth in "heavy five" minutes, but those squads weren't quite up to the Pacers' levels.
Minutes played by "heavy-fives"
Team Minutes
Portland 13,341
Detroit 12,678
Indiana 12,606
Washington 12,471
Dallas 12,016
On the surface, there doesn't seem to be much virtue in riding your best quintet to the finish line. Of the past 17 champs, the average place in "heavy five" minutes is 13th or just about average. For the championship runners-up, the average rank is 14th. One might think that having your best players play a ton of minutes together would be a positive thing, but there's not much evidence to support that theory.
Conversely, the Spurs ranked 29th in "heavy five" minutes last season and they rank 28th this season, just ahead of the titans-of-turmoil Bucks and Lakers. In fact, the Pacers' "heavy five" have played 2,944 more minutes than the Spurs' "heavy five," which is the equivalent of an extra 12 full 48-minute games of mileage.
Fewest minutes by "heavy-fives"
Team Minutes
L.A. Lakers 9,554
Milwaukee 9,598
San Antonio 9,662
Boston 9,936
New Orleans 9,963
The burnout factor must be considered. It's true, playing your best guys a ton of minutes is just one variable in a whole bucket of factors that determine a champion. Only one champ among 30 teams is crowned every season, so the odds are slim no matter what the specs look like for a team. It also must be said that although the Pacers would love to a win a title, a trip to the Finals for them, like the 2012 Thunder crew, would probably be seen as a triumph, not a failure.
Of course, not every team can be the Spurs. Most coaches don't possess the job security that Popovich, he of four championship rings, enjoys on the sideline. And most teams don't feature the comforts of three Hall of Famers who have championship pedigrees. So resting guys, while nice in theory, might not be practical. Jobs and playoff seeds are on the line.
But even though the Pacers have young legs, they aren't immune to overuse. The Hibbert case is particularly interesting. After losing to the Heat, the 25-year-old Hibbert put on 15 pounds of muscle in the offseason, posted workout videos to social media and checked in at 290 pounds in training camp. Now, 79 games in, Hibbert is lumbering to the regular-season finish line. The paint maven has shot just 41.6 percent since the All-Star break.
Vogel would probably be wise to monitor the minutes the rest of the way. After riding their guys all season, the Pacers may have come around on the rest thing. But if recent history tells us anything, it's too late for their title hopes.
Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
On Wednesday, Indiana coach Frank Vogel raised eyebrows around the NBA when he announced he would rest all five of his starters against the Milwaukee Bucks. This, after he benched his Defensive Player of the Year candidate Roy Hibbert, who is one of the largest human beings in American sport, in the second half of Sunday's blowout because he "looked worn down."
The Pacers are taking a breather for the first time this season. The Spurs have been doing this for years. The Pacers wouldn't be the first team to piggyback the Spurs. Gregg Popovich rests his stars in the regular season because it's the smart thing to do, even if it's not the most macho thing to do. (If you haven't noticed, the Miami Heat have told Dwyane Wade to sit 27 games this season -- and counting).
We're learning that rest is an essential ingredient to long-term success, as we've learned through injury technology like Catapult Sports. This line of thinking is taking hold in the NBA.
The Pacers are resting up. But is it too late?
The damage might be already done.
Weary warriors
There's a reason the Pacers' starting five has looked weary. Before Wednesday's night off, Paul George, David West and Hibbert hadn't missed a game all season. None. George Hill sat out all of five games and Lance Stephenson missed just two. The team's starting lineup had played a whopping total of 71 games together this season, more than any other starting unit in the league.
Meanwhile, the Spurs have used 26 different starting lineups and their longest-tenured starting five has played just 27 games. And they're winning more than anybody.
All in all, Indiana's starting five has played an enormous amount of minutes in its championship quest. Two years ago, our own Henry Abbott dug into whether playing heavy minutes has ever worked for an individual in a title chase and what he found was fascinating. Of the nearly 100 players who eclipsed the 3,000-minute mark in the regular season since 2004, none had ever won a championship while doing that. And that was just the beginning. (Read more here.)
"Heavy five" lineups
But what about lineups? Is there a similar trend for teams whose best five guys log a ton of minutes?
Normally, we'd interpret heavy minutes as a good thing, right? A high number of minutes for a five-man crew means that they're healthy and they can develop finely tuned chemistry that comes only with lots of shared experiences.
But I wanted to test it. So I looked at the top five players in minutes played for every team in the StatsCube database, which goes back to the 1996-97 season. We'll call these quintets the team's "heavy five." The Pacers' "heavy five" has played a sum of 12,606 minutes. Where does that rank in the league? Third most. Only the Portland Trail Blazers (13,341 minutes) and the Detroit Pistons (12,678 minutes) have a quintet that has logged more. (Notice, by the way, that all three of these teams have fallen off since the All-Star break).
So this raises a question: Has a team that ranked top three in "heavy five" minutes ever won a title?
Not since 1997. Each of the past 17 champs didn't get there by riding their "heavy five" like the Pacers.
Some Pacers-like teams have come close, but they haven't won it all. For example, the 2012 Oklahoma City Thunder's "heavy five" played more minutes than any other team, but they flamed out in five games against the Heat. The 2004-05 Pistons ranked second in "heavy five" minutes and fell to the Spurs in the championship, as well. The 2009-10 and 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers squads ranked fifth in "heavy five" minutes, but those squads weren't quite up to the Pacers' levels.
Minutes played by "heavy-fives"
Team Minutes
Portland 13,341
Detroit 12,678
Indiana 12,606
Washington 12,471
Dallas 12,016
On the surface, there doesn't seem to be much virtue in riding your best quintet to the finish line. Of the past 17 champs, the average place in "heavy five" minutes is 13th or just about average. For the championship runners-up, the average rank is 14th. One might think that having your best players play a ton of minutes together would be a positive thing, but there's not much evidence to support that theory.
Conversely, the Spurs ranked 29th in "heavy five" minutes last season and they rank 28th this season, just ahead of the titans-of-turmoil Bucks and Lakers. In fact, the Pacers' "heavy five" have played 2,944 more minutes than the Spurs' "heavy five," which is the equivalent of an extra 12 full 48-minute games of mileage.
Fewest minutes by "heavy-fives"
Team Minutes
L.A. Lakers 9,554
Milwaukee 9,598
San Antonio 9,662
Boston 9,936
New Orleans 9,963
The burnout factor must be considered. It's true, playing your best guys a ton of minutes is just one variable in a whole bucket of factors that determine a champion. Only one champ among 30 teams is crowned every season, so the odds are slim no matter what the specs look like for a team. It also must be said that although the Pacers would love to a win a title, a trip to the Finals for them, like the 2012 Thunder crew, would probably be seen as a triumph, not a failure.
Of course, not every team can be the Spurs. Most coaches don't possess the job security that Popovich, he of four championship rings, enjoys on the sideline. And most teams don't feature the comforts of three Hall of Famers who have championship pedigrees. So resting guys, while nice in theory, might not be practical. Jobs and playoff seeds are on the line.
But even though the Pacers have young legs, they aren't immune to overuse. The Hibbert case is particularly interesting. After losing to the Heat, the 25-year-old Hibbert put on 15 pounds of muscle in the offseason, posted workout videos to social media and checked in at 290 pounds in training camp. Now, 79 games in, Hibbert is lumbering to the regular-season finish line. The paint maven has shot just 41.6 percent since the All-Star break.
Vogel would probably be wise to monitor the minutes the rest of the way. After riding their guys all season, the Pacers may have come around on the rest thing. But if recent history tells us anything, it's too late for their title hopes.
Last edited:
- Feb 6, 2011
- 40,141
- 11,080
no
- Jul 29, 2005
- 37,831
- 15,643
I just looked at that Blake gif, it was a travel. 3 steps after the initial bounce. But historically superstars travel and refs don't call it. Patrick Ewing was a classic case of this.
- Oct 24, 2010
- 94,426
- 33,490
- Feb 6, 2011
- 40,141
- 11,080
unless they changed the D to duche
- Jan 20, 2002
- 54,307
- 31,865
lebron out there working his butt off every night while wade just chilling and waiting for the playoffs 
of course, his defense is gonna be down this yurr.
of course, his defense is gonna be down this yurr.
- Apr 14, 2006
- 5,704
- 2,698
Julius F. Wrek
- Oct 10, 2013
- 43,425
- 42,998
lebron out there working his butt off every night while wade just chilling and waiting for the playoffs
Lebron needs more help?
do work son
Banned
- May 22, 2010
- 17,118
- 5,186
really hoping dallas stays in 7th and phoenix clinches 8
do work son
Banned
- May 22, 2010
- 17,118
- 5,186
lebron out there working his butt off every night while wade just chilling and waiting for the playoffs
Lebron needs more help?
i wouldn't say more help, although they've needed a slid big man for like 3 years now. he just needs consistent help.
antidope
Supporter
- Jan 2, 2012
- 63,526
- 68,117
Stacked Roster
Weak Conference
Weak Conference
imsneakerpimp
Banned
- Mar 22, 2014
- 947
- 185
Yea Phoenix playoff hopes are quite possibly dead. Sorry new fans of Phoenix, but you can cheer again around October at the VERY BEGINNING of the season
Redraft 2007: Kevin Durant No. 1.
The NBA draft is two rounds. Two.
2007 NBA Draft Order
1. Portland Trail Blazers
2. Seattle SuperSonics
3. Atlanta Hawks
4. Memphis Grizzlies
5. Boston Celtics (traded to Seattle)
6. Milwaukee Bucks
7. Minnesota Timberwolves
8. Charlotte Bobcats (traded to GS)
9. Chicago Bulls (from New York)
10. Sacramento Kings
11. Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana)
12. Philadelphia 76ers
13. New Orleans Hornets
14. Los Angeles Clippers
That's because there are just so few spots "open" for teams each offseason, thanks to typical 13-man early-season rosters that are mostly filled with players from the previous season.
Consequently, each rookie class has about 50 or so players who spend at least some time in an NBA jersey that season, and that number dwindles each year until eventually, after just a few seasons, only about 15 guys from the class have made any real impact. A few are All-Stars or are close to it, a few are starters, and the rest are reserves who are solid rotation guys.
The class of 2007 is chock full of impact players, obviously, but just seven years after those young men were drafted, a full third of the 30 first-round picks are not in the NBA anymore. In leagues like the NFL and MLB, so many players get drafted each year that it is easy to come up with 30-40 names of players who were deserving of being first-round picks when looking backward. In the NBA, the magic number is 15.
Based on what we know now and what the teams looked like then, here is how the lottery picks (top 14) should have or even could have gone down:
1. Portland Trail Blazers | Actual pick: Greg Oden
Amin Elhassan's pick: Kevin Durant | David Thorpe's pick: Durant
Elhassan: No need to waste too many words explaining this one. I'd be shocked if Coach has a different opinion.
Thorpe: I remember getting beat up in the media for merely suggesting to Chad Ford and in my chats that Durant deserves consideration to be the top overall pick. Fun times.
2. Seattle SuperSonics (now OKC Thunder) | Actual pick: Kevin Durant
Thorpe's pick: Joakim Noah | Elhassan's pick: Marc Gasol
Thorpe: I like Noah over Gasol in a coin flip. Top two passers at center in the game. Elite defenders. Trusted leaders. Noah is just a little more spirited, and it rubs off on his teammates.
Elhassan: Same coin flip for me, but landed on "heads" for Gasol. I agree with your assessment, but I think Gasol has got the edge on Noah as far as an individual offensive talent and focal point of a team offense.
3. Atlanta Hawks | Actual pick: Al Horford
Elhassan's pick: Noah | Thorpe's pick: Al Horford
Elhassan: But to be certain, Noah is really, really good as well! One of the best defensive anchors in the game, an offensive skill set that is finally being exploited and a true leader, through and through.
Thorpe: I know our 2, 3 and 4 picks are the same guys and we can't go wrong anywhere. I think Horford is the most underrated player in this class. He brings defense, leadership, basketball IQ and a midrange game. He's a Hall of Fame talent stuck in a lost franchise and he has made the most of it.
4. Memphis Grizzlies | Actual pick: Mike Conley
Elhassan's pick: Horford | Thorpe: Gasol
Elhassan: Agreed on Horford. Whenever the debate for "best power forward in the game" comes up, I'm always amused at how his name is omitted from the conversation. Nice inside-outside game, excellent rebounder, high-level defender and all the intangibles.
Thorpe: As I said earlier, Horford, Noah and Gasol can all be interchanged, so you can't go wrong with any of them in any order from 2-3-4.
5. Boston Celtics | Actual pick: Jeff Green
Elhassan's pick: Mike Conley | Thorpe's pick: Conley
Elhassan: I think we are lockstep on this one. Continuing the theme of highly underrated players, Conley has been the forgotten name when discussing this Golden Generation of Point Guards. Floor general, distributor with excellent vision and enough craft to make up for his size disadvantage.
Thorpe: Conley to Boston is a perfect fit of form and function. First-class individual, defense-first mentality, all cloaked in a super quick and skilled body that is about "we," not "me." He and Rajon Rondo would have formed the best first- and second-string PG tandem in modern league history.
6. Milwaukee Bucks | Actual pick: Yi Jianlian
Thorpe's pick: Carl Landry | Elhassan's pick: Tiago Splitter
Thorpe: Here's where things go screwy ... for you. I chose an incredibly tough-minded guy who for a time has been the league's best fourth-quarter scorer. You preferred a guy who is a good defensive player, but was never a sure thing to even come over here to play. Explain yourself, sir!
Elhassan: Splitter's buyout was hefty but not enormous, but more important: He had a strong desire to come over to the NBA, which reminds me of another former Tau Ceramica player with a high buyout who has had a pretty good NBA career: Goran Dragic. I love Splitter's defensive IQ and touch around the basket, while I feel as though undersized scoring 4s such as Landry are a much more easily replaceable commodity.
7. Minnesota Timberwolves | Actual pick: Corey Brewer
Elhassan's pick: Arron Afflalo | Thorpe's pick: Afflalo
Elhassan: This is a "hindsight is 20-20" pick for me, and might still be a reach. Afflalo's niche is as a high-level defender who can provide scoring punch. He strays when he tries to live a Kobe Bryant fantasy offensively, as his defense struggles. Would he have embraced being who he should be on a Minnesota team trending downward?
Thorpe: I'm with you on the Afflalo call. Shooters who will defend are always valuable, as he has proved a number of times in his career. The mess in Minny certainly would have derailed him to some degree; hard for anyone but the elite of the elite to stand out there during those dark years.
8. Charlotte Bobcats | Actual pick: Brandan Wright
Thorpe's pick: Corey Brewer | Elhassan's pick: Thaddeus Young
Thorpe: In the age of zone defenses, finding super fast, tall and long wings who can score in transition is a must. Brewer played that role perfectly, once he went to teams that ran. Even now, he leads the NBA in transition buckets. Charlotte played at a decent pace and he would have helped their middling defense.
Elhassan: I loved Brewer coming out of Florida, but I can't help but think a man of his talents would have been wasted in Charlotte much the same way he was early in Minnesota. My pick was Thad Young, whose scoring prowess and versatility would have found a way to the floor more quickly for the Bobcats.
9. Chicago Bulls | Actual pick: Joakim Noah
Elhassan's pick: Jeff Green | Thorpe's pick: Green
Elhassan: Coming out of the structure of Georgetown's Princeton offense, Green would have been a nice fit in Chicago as a versatile forward who could back up Luol Deng or play alongside him. Great size-to-skill ratio, he could put the ball on the floor and make plays, and an underrated passer from the high post.
Thorpe: Green is a great fit for those Bulls, who could have played either Deng or Green some as a stretch forward to add some versatility. I don't think he would have excelled there unless he stayed long enough for Tom Thibodeaux to arrive. If that had happened, Green would be closer to his full potential.
10. Sacramento Kings | Actual pick: Spencer Hawes
Thorpe's pick: Splitter | Elhassan's pick: Spencer Hawes
Thorpe: I'm not convinced that the old management team in Sacramento would have passed on a shooter-to-be like Hawes over Splitter, but they clearly should have if given the chance. They had some good to great offensive players but no one to protect the rim (and no coaching or culture who cared much about that). Splitter may have never come for that reason, but he could have been a game-changer there.
Elhassan: You're absolutely right, they would have never valued Splitter's strengths to overlook his "weaknesses" away from the basket. Then again in 2007, to paraphrase the great Michael Ray Richardson, the Kings be sinkin'. Hawes' ability at 7-foot-1 to space the floor, pass from both high and low blocks and underrated defensive rebounding make him valuable as a stretch big.
11. Atlanta Hawks | Actual pick: Acie Law
Elhassan's pick: Marco Belinelli | Thorpe's pick: Young
Elhassan: Time for some international flair! The past two seasons, Belinelli has finally been able to realize his potential as an elite shooter who can moonlight in a combo role, while still functioning within a team defensive scheme. Would the 2007 Hawks see him for his strengths? This is the same team that couldn't wait to dump Boris Diaw.
Thorpe: I love the thought of another athletic guy on that Hawks team. Atlanta may have given Boston their toughest battle because they just overwhelmed them (almost) with speed and athleticism. They did need a shooter to develop like Belinelli, but I don't love the fit. He may have drowned like Acie Law did.
12. Philadelphia 76ers | Actual pick: Thaddeus Young
Thorpe's pick: Brandan Wright | Elhassan's pick: Rudy Fernandez
Thorpe: Obviously I'm much higher on Wright than you are, because you'd rather have a soft shooter than a super-skilled athlete such as Wright play for Philly. Wright was wasted for years in Golden State; if he had been developed from the get-go, who knows how good he could have been. We see him now as one of the most productive and efficient players in the game as a role player.
Elhassan: I just can't believe the first name you drop after calling my guy "soft" is Brandan Wright! Athlete? Yes. Skilled? Ehh ... I'll tell you who is skilled: Rudy Fernandez! This guy is a no-brainer NBA talent as an athletic combo guard. He's a better all-round talent than Belinelli, but also way more mercurial a personality and inconsistent a shooter.
13. New Orleans Hornets | Actual pick: Julian Wright
Elhassan's pick: Josh McRoberts | Thorpe's pick: Wilson Chandler
Elhassan: Speaking of skilled athletes, how about Josh McRoberts! Like Wright, it took him a long time to find his niche in the NBA, and he's finally put together his incredible skill set into something productive, as the perfect counter to a post presence.
Thorpe: I love that McRoberts beat the odds and became such a productive player. But Chandler is the superior talent and really is a no-brainer of a pick. He showed what a huge factor he can be for a 57-win team last season in Denver. In the right system, he'd be better on defense than almost anyone in the class.
14. Los Angeles Clippers | Actual pick: Al Thornton
Thorpe's pick: Aaron Brooks | Elhassan's pick: Greg Oden
Thorpe: This guy is a pain to watch oftentimes, but mostly if you are rooting for the other team. In L.A., he would have been Jamal Crawford long before Crawford arrived. He'd have been the next Bobby Jackson, that super-energized bench scorer who is impossible to guard with just one man.
Elhassan: I can attest he's a pain when he's on your team as well, as I had the pleasure of watching him suit up for the Suns in 2010-11 after he came over in a ridiculously one-sided trade for Dragic. I can't believe at 14 you won't roll the dice on Oden! Maybe the Clippers aren't the best landing spot (and maybe I'm just spoiled from being around the best training staff in the NBA), but I'd take the chance that different support staff and expectations would yield a different outcome.
2007 NBA Draft Order
1. Portland Trail Blazers
2. Seattle SuperSonics
3. Atlanta Hawks
4. Memphis Grizzlies
5. Boston Celtics (traded to Seattle)
6. Milwaukee Bucks
7. Minnesota Timberwolves
8. Charlotte Bobcats (traded to GS)
9. Chicago Bulls (from New York)
10. Sacramento Kings
11. Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana)
12. Philadelphia 76ers
13. New Orleans Hornets
14. Los Angeles Clippers
That's because there are just so few spots "open" for teams each offseason, thanks to typical 13-man early-season rosters that are mostly filled with players from the previous season.
Consequently, each rookie class has about 50 or so players who spend at least some time in an NBA jersey that season, and that number dwindles each year until eventually, after just a few seasons, only about 15 guys from the class have made any real impact. A few are All-Stars or are close to it, a few are starters, and the rest are reserves who are solid rotation guys.
The class of 2007 is chock full of impact players, obviously, but just seven years after those young men were drafted, a full third of the 30 first-round picks are not in the NBA anymore. In leagues like the NFL and MLB, so many players get drafted each year that it is easy to come up with 30-40 names of players who were deserving of being first-round picks when looking backward. In the NBA, the magic number is 15.
Based on what we know now and what the teams looked like then, here is how the lottery picks (top 14) should have or even could have gone down:
1. Portland Trail Blazers | Actual pick: Greg Oden
Amin Elhassan's pick: Kevin Durant | David Thorpe's pick: Durant
Elhassan: No need to waste too many words explaining this one. I'd be shocked if Coach has a different opinion.
Thorpe: I remember getting beat up in the media for merely suggesting to Chad Ford and in my chats that Durant deserves consideration to be the top overall pick. Fun times.
2. Seattle SuperSonics (now OKC Thunder) | Actual pick: Kevin Durant
Thorpe's pick: Joakim Noah | Elhassan's pick: Marc Gasol
Thorpe: I like Noah over Gasol in a coin flip. Top two passers at center in the game. Elite defenders. Trusted leaders. Noah is just a little more spirited, and it rubs off on his teammates.
Elhassan: Same coin flip for me, but landed on "heads" for Gasol. I agree with your assessment, but I think Gasol has got the edge on Noah as far as an individual offensive talent and focal point of a team offense.
3. Atlanta Hawks | Actual pick: Al Horford
Elhassan's pick: Noah | Thorpe's pick: Al Horford
Elhassan: But to be certain, Noah is really, really good as well! One of the best defensive anchors in the game, an offensive skill set that is finally being exploited and a true leader, through and through.
Thorpe: I know our 2, 3 and 4 picks are the same guys and we can't go wrong anywhere. I think Horford is the most underrated player in this class. He brings defense, leadership, basketball IQ and a midrange game. He's a Hall of Fame talent stuck in a lost franchise and he has made the most of it.
4. Memphis Grizzlies | Actual pick: Mike Conley
Elhassan's pick: Horford | Thorpe: Gasol
Elhassan: Agreed on Horford. Whenever the debate for "best power forward in the game" comes up, I'm always amused at how his name is omitted from the conversation. Nice inside-outside game, excellent rebounder, high-level defender and all the intangibles.
Thorpe: As I said earlier, Horford, Noah and Gasol can all be interchanged, so you can't go wrong with any of them in any order from 2-3-4.
5. Boston Celtics | Actual pick: Jeff Green
Elhassan's pick: Mike Conley | Thorpe's pick: Conley
Elhassan: I think we are lockstep on this one. Continuing the theme of highly underrated players, Conley has been the forgotten name when discussing this Golden Generation of Point Guards. Floor general, distributor with excellent vision and enough craft to make up for his size disadvantage.
Thorpe: Conley to Boston is a perfect fit of form and function. First-class individual, defense-first mentality, all cloaked in a super quick and skilled body that is about "we," not "me." He and Rajon Rondo would have formed the best first- and second-string PG tandem in modern league history.
6. Milwaukee Bucks | Actual pick: Yi Jianlian
Thorpe's pick: Carl Landry | Elhassan's pick: Tiago Splitter
Thorpe: Here's where things go screwy ... for you. I chose an incredibly tough-minded guy who for a time has been the league's best fourth-quarter scorer. You preferred a guy who is a good defensive player, but was never a sure thing to even come over here to play. Explain yourself, sir!
Elhassan: Splitter's buyout was hefty but not enormous, but more important: He had a strong desire to come over to the NBA, which reminds me of another former Tau Ceramica player with a high buyout who has had a pretty good NBA career: Goran Dragic. I love Splitter's defensive IQ and touch around the basket, while I feel as though undersized scoring 4s such as Landry are a much more easily replaceable commodity.
7. Minnesota Timberwolves | Actual pick: Corey Brewer
Elhassan's pick: Arron Afflalo | Thorpe's pick: Afflalo
Elhassan: This is a "hindsight is 20-20" pick for me, and might still be a reach. Afflalo's niche is as a high-level defender who can provide scoring punch. He strays when he tries to live a Kobe Bryant fantasy offensively, as his defense struggles. Would he have embraced being who he should be on a Minnesota team trending downward?
Thorpe: I'm with you on the Afflalo call. Shooters who will defend are always valuable, as he has proved a number of times in his career. The mess in Minny certainly would have derailed him to some degree; hard for anyone but the elite of the elite to stand out there during those dark years.
8. Charlotte Bobcats | Actual pick: Brandan Wright
Thorpe's pick: Corey Brewer | Elhassan's pick: Thaddeus Young
Thorpe: In the age of zone defenses, finding super fast, tall and long wings who can score in transition is a must. Brewer played that role perfectly, once he went to teams that ran. Even now, he leads the NBA in transition buckets. Charlotte played at a decent pace and he would have helped their middling defense.
Elhassan: I loved Brewer coming out of Florida, but I can't help but think a man of his talents would have been wasted in Charlotte much the same way he was early in Minnesota. My pick was Thad Young, whose scoring prowess and versatility would have found a way to the floor more quickly for the Bobcats.
9. Chicago Bulls | Actual pick: Joakim Noah
Elhassan's pick: Jeff Green | Thorpe's pick: Green
Elhassan: Coming out of the structure of Georgetown's Princeton offense, Green would have been a nice fit in Chicago as a versatile forward who could back up Luol Deng or play alongside him. Great size-to-skill ratio, he could put the ball on the floor and make plays, and an underrated passer from the high post.
Thorpe: Green is a great fit for those Bulls, who could have played either Deng or Green some as a stretch forward to add some versatility. I don't think he would have excelled there unless he stayed long enough for Tom Thibodeaux to arrive. If that had happened, Green would be closer to his full potential.
10. Sacramento Kings | Actual pick: Spencer Hawes
Thorpe's pick: Splitter | Elhassan's pick: Spencer Hawes
Thorpe: I'm not convinced that the old management team in Sacramento would have passed on a shooter-to-be like Hawes over Splitter, but they clearly should have if given the chance. They had some good to great offensive players but no one to protect the rim (and no coaching or culture who cared much about that). Splitter may have never come for that reason, but he could have been a game-changer there.
Elhassan: You're absolutely right, they would have never valued Splitter's strengths to overlook his "weaknesses" away from the basket. Then again in 2007, to paraphrase the great Michael Ray Richardson, the Kings be sinkin'. Hawes' ability at 7-foot-1 to space the floor, pass from both high and low blocks and underrated defensive rebounding make him valuable as a stretch big.
11. Atlanta Hawks | Actual pick: Acie Law
Elhassan's pick: Marco Belinelli | Thorpe's pick: Young
Elhassan: Time for some international flair! The past two seasons, Belinelli has finally been able to realize his potential as an elite shooter who can moonlight in a combo role, while still functioning within a team defensive scheme. Would the 2007 Hawks see him for his strengths? This is the same team that couldn't wait to dump Boris Diaw.
Thorpe: I love the thought of another athletic guy on that Hawks team. Atlanta may have given Boston their toughest battle because they just overwhelmed them (almost) with speed and athleticism. They did need a shooter to develop like Belinelli, but I don't love the fit. He may have drowned like Acie Law did.
12. Philadelphia 76ers | Actual pick: Thaddeus Young
Thorpe's pick: Brandan Wright | Elhassan's pick: Rudy Fernandez
Thorpe: Obviously I'm much higher on Wright than you are, because you'd rather have a soft shooter than a super-skilled athlete such as Wright play for Philly. Wright was wasted for years in Golden State; if he had been developed from the get-go, who knows how good he could have been. We see him now as one of the most productive and efficient players in the game as a role player.
Elhassan: I just can't believe the first name you drop after calling my guy "soft" is Brandan Wright! Athlete? Yes. Skilled? Ehh ... I'll tell you who is skilled: Rudy Fernandez! This guy is a no-brainer NBA talent as an athletic combo guard. He's a better all-round talent than Belinelli, but also way more mercurial a personality and inconsistent a shooter.
13. New Orleans Hornets | Actual pick: Julian Wright
Elhassan's pick: Josh McRoberts | Thorpe's pick: Wilson Chandler
Elhassan: Speaking of skilled athletes, how about Josh McRoberts! Like Wright, it took him a long time to find his niche in the NBA, and he's finally put together his incredible skill set into something productive, as the perfect counter to a post presence.
Thorpe: I love that McRoberts beat the odds and became such a productive player. But Chandler is the superior talent and really is a no-brainer of a pick. He showed what a huge factor he can be for a 57-win team last season in Denver. In the right system, he'd be better on defense than almost anyone in the class.
14. Los Angeles Clippers | Actual pick: Al Thornton
Thorpe's pick: Aaron Brooks | Elhassan's pick: Greg Oden
Thorpe: This guy is a pain to watch oftentimes, but mostly if you are rooting for the other team. In L.A., he would have been Jamal Crawford long before Crawford arrived. He'd have been the next Bobby Jackson, that super-energized bench scorer who is impossible to guard with just one man.
Elhassan: I can attest he's a pain when he's on your team as well, as I had the pleasure of watching him suit up for the Suns in 2010-11 after he came over in a ridiculously one-sided trade for Dragic. I can't believe at 14 you won't roll the dice on Oden! Maybe the Clippers aren't the best landing spot (and maybe I'm just spoiled from being around the best training staff in the NBA), but I'd take the chance that different support staff and expectations would yield a different outcome.
- Mar 3, 2006
- 24,717
- 436
Every game is huge for those 7-9 teams. Though, if Mavs win tonight, I'm pretty comfortable with the thought we'll get one of the two last seeds.
If not, yikes.
If not, yikes.
- Jul 21, 2011
- 5,897
- 1,189
Why do people waste there time with this bs?
- Feb 6, 2011
- 40,141
- 11,080
especially that jeff green > Noah FOHWTBS
- Apr 14, 2006
- 5,704
- 2,698
antidope
Supporter
- Jan 2, 2012
- 63,526
- 68,117
It blows my mind that so many people are still disputing something that is clear as day in the rulebook.
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- Oct 8, 2005
- 13,424
- 4,833
hearing it from the league should not be an indicator of some sort imo. there have been worse calls/no calls towards the end of regulation than that play
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big j 33
Supporter
- May 31, 2006
- 36,046
- 16,807
Who is still talking about that?
Plumlee didn't foul him. Lebron should have finished the dunk, but it was a great defensive play. That's about it.
Plumlee didn't foul him. Lebron should have finished the dunk, but it was a great defensive play. That's about it.
- Nov 14, 2012
- 36,045
- 12,024
- Status
