why is it such a sin to say anyone will be better than Michael Jordan?

[Clyde Frog]

Oh, certainly. Without a doubt. Though I will say that LeBron's physical attributes in comparison to Jordan shouldn't really hold weight in any comparison. LeBron isn't really that much talented in comparison imho.

I do disagree here though. The reason I think Lebron is the most talented player we've ever seen is because of his physical attributes. It's what puts him on another level than everyone else. Having the skill to play Point Gaurd with the size to hold down someone on the block and the athleticsm to do everything inbetween. Athleticsm unmatched by anyone else innthe NBA. It's something Jordan simply couldn't do. It's not even something he can practice. He couldn't practice being taller, faster, and jump higher than Lebron.

Perfect example was in last nights all-star game in the final minutes where it started to get intense. I can't remember who was on Blake Griffin at the time but I remember seeing Lebron hold Kobe, than yelled at whoever was on Blake Griffin to switch because they were undersized and then Lebron locked down Blake Griffin.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Lebron is not better than Jordan and he is in his prime. Lebron is 28. This is how old Kobe was in 2006-2007. Kobe's athleticism started regressing after that season.

It is safe to say that Lebron will not get much better than he is right now. He is at his peak and it is not good enough to best MJ's peak.

When you consider that Wade is also regressing and Lebron's role player are old as hell, it is also unlikely that he will match MJ in terms of rings.

Lebron has improved every year for the past 3 years. You have no idea whether or not he won't get much better than that in fact, all signs point to him getting better than that.

He's only 28 and is on top of the NBA. His team is on top of the NBA. Who knows how many rings they'll reel off. When Michael won his first ring around the same age Lebron did, no one in their right mind thought he was going to win 6. Especially considering that for much of his time prior to that first ring, Jordan was considered a guy who could fill it up and fail or fall short come playoff time. As far as Championships and team success goes, who knows where the Heat will end up.

But from my perspective, team success is only a factor, not the factor in determining who's a better player. Too many factors that play a part in team success to value that as the ultimate factor. It can be argued that Lebron is becoming (if not has already become) a better playmaker, more efficient scorer, and versatile defender who's playing against players who are far more talented than the players Jordan played with and against.

Can people stop using this "same age" stuff? Lebron is 10 years in the L. By Jordan's 10th season, he was the GOAT..

The most anyone can do right now is argue for Lebron being more talented than Jordan in certain aspects. But in terms of overall dominance as a player, Jordan wins going away. We've seen 10 seasons from Lebron at this point. Based on how those 10 seasons have gone, many people will say we've seen enough to know that Lebron and Jordan are on different trajectories.

G T F O H

It is distinctly possible Lebron goes on a 5 championship in 7 year run including this year.

If he does that while maintaining his current level of play its he's in the running to be the best of all time.

You dudes saying its not possible at all are ******ed.

 

[dt43]

Lebron is not better than Jordan and he is in his prime. Lebron is 28. This is how old Kobe was in 2006-2007. Kobe's athleticism started regressing after that season.

It is safe to say that Lebron will not get much better than he is right now. He is at his peak and it is not good enough to best MJ's peak.

When you consider that Wade is also regressing and Lebron's role player are old as hell, it is also unlikely that he will match MJ in terms of rings.

Lebron has improved every year for the past 3 years. You have no idea whether or not he won't get much better than that in fact, all signs point to him getting better than that.

He's only 28 and is on top of the NBA. His team is on top of the NBA. Who knows how many rings they'll reel off. When Michael won his first ring around the same age Lebron did, no one in their right mind thought he was going to win 6. Especially considering that for much of his time prior to that first ring, Jordan was considered a guy who could fill it up and fail or fall short come playoff time. As far as Championships and team success goes, who knows where the Heat will end up.

But from my perspective, team success is only a factor, not the factor in determining who's a better player. Too many factors that play a part in team success to value that as the ultimate factor. It can be argued that Lebron is becoming (if not has already become) a better playmaker, more efficient scorer, and versatile defender who's playing against players who are far more talented than the players Jordan played with and against.

Can people stop using this "same age" stuff? Lebron is 10 years in the L. By Jordan's 10th season, he was the GOAT..

The most anyone can do right now is argue for Lebron being more talented than Jordan in certain aspects. But in terms of overall dominance as a player, Jordan wins going away. We've seen 10 seasons from Lebron at this point. Based on how those 10 seasons have gone, many people will say we've seen enough to know that Lebron and Jordan are on different trajectories.

G T F O H

It is distinctly possible Lebron goes on a 5 championship in 7 year run including this year.

If he does that while maintaining his current level of play its he's in the running to be the best of all time.

You dudes saying its not possible at all are ******ed.

I'm not saying it's not possible. All I'm saying is that there's no reason to even discuss it right now. You can try but you won't have a leg to stand on.

5 championships in 7 years? Okay... let him do that then we'll talk.

 

[Clyde Frog]

I agree, that's where I get thrown off with this discussion. I think Lebron is more talented than Jordan in terms of basketball skills.

Woah slow up. SLOW UP!

Are you serious?

Ya. It's not like I'm saying he's wayy better. There's simply certain things Lebron can do that Jordan wasnt capable of where as there's nothing Jordan could do that Lebron couldn't. Unless you wanna say Jordan was better at making Free Throws that's about it.

 

[shoeking2101]

Can people stop using this "same age" stuff? Lebron is 10 years in the L. By Jordan's 10th season, he was the GOAT..

The most anyone can do right now is argue for Lebron being more talented than Jordan in certain aspects. But in terms of overall dominance as a player, Jordan wins going away. We've seen 10 seasons from Lebron at this point. Based on how those 10 seasons have gone, many people will say we've seen enough to know that Lebron and Jordan are on different trajectories.

See, this is what I mean. Lebron is in his 10th season right now, his trajectory doesn't project GOAT?

If he continues doing what he's doing in his 10th season, he doesn't end up GOAT?

So Lebron isn't dominating the NBA in a similar way that Jordan was doing in his 10th season? Lebron James has been the best player in the league for the past 5 years, and has been undisputed for the past 3 to 4. The same could have been said about Jordan in his 10th season. I know where your head is at if you think Jordan was the undisputed greatest of all time in his 10th season.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Lebron is not better than Jordan and he is in his prime. Lebron is 28. This is how old Kobe was in 2006-2007. Kobe's athleticism started regressing after that season.

It is safe to say that Lebron will not get much better than he is right now. He is at his peak and it is not good enough to best MJ's peak.

When you consider that Wade is also regressing and Lebron's role player are old as hell, it is also unlikely that he will match MJ in terms of rings.

Lebron has improved every year for the past 3 years. You have no idea whether or not he won't get much better than that in fact, all signs point to him getting better than that.

He's only 28 and is on top of the NBA. His team is on top of the NBA. Who knows how many rings they'll reel off. When Michael won his first ring around the same age Lebron did, no one in their right mind thought he was going to win 6. Especially considering that for much of his time prior to that first ring, Jordan was considered a guy who could fill it up and fail or fall short come playoff time. As far as Championships and team success goes, who knows where the Heat will end up.

But from my perspective, team success is only a factor, not the factor in determining who's a better player. Too many factors that play a part in team success to value that as the ultimate factor. It can be argued that Lebron is becoming (if not has already become) a better playmaker, more efficient scorer, and versatile defender who's playing against players who are far more talented than the players Jordan played with and against.

Can people stop using this "same age" stuff? Lebron is 10 years in the L. By Jordan's 10th season, he was the GOAT..

The most anyone can do right now is argue for Lebron being more talented than Jordan in certain aspects. But in terms of overall dominance as a player, Jordan wins going away. We've seen 10 seasons from Lebron at this point. Based on how those 10 seasons have gone, many people will say we've seen enough to know that Lebron and Jordan are on different trajectories.

G T F O H

It is distinctly possible Lebron goes on a 5 championship in 7 year run including this year.

If he does that while maintaining his current level of play its he's in the running to be the best of all time.

You dudes saying its not possible at all are ******ed.

I'm not saying it's not possible. All I'm saying is that there's no reason to even discuss it right now. You can try but you won't have a leg to stand on.

5 championships in 7 years? Okay... let him do that then we'll talk.

I'm not trying to discuss it because I don't think its going to happen but Lebron is only 28 playing the best ball of his career and you are talking out of your ***.

Dude is the best player in the NBA right now and its not close.

Different trajectories

 

[darthska]

You dudes saying it has already happened aren't ******ed at all. Matter of fact, I wish we were closer friends. I need like $4k, and I know you'd loan it to me if I told you it's possible I get this $350k job in a couple months.

I mean, it's like it has already happened.

 

[carltonjunior]

I do disagree here though. The reason I think Lebron is the most talented player we've ever seen is because of his physical attributes. It's what puts him on another level than everyone else. Having the skill to play Point Gaurd with the size to hold down someone on the block and the athleticsm to do everything inbetween. Athleticsm unmatched by anyone else innthe NBA. It's something Jordan simply couldn't do. It's not even something he can practice. He couldn't practice being taller, faster, and jump higher than Lebron.

Perfect example was in last nights all-star game in the final minutes where it started to get intense. I can't remember who was on Blake Griffin at the time but I remember seeing Lebron hold Kobe, than yelled at whoever was on Blake Griffin to switch because they were undersized and then Lebron locked down Blake Griffin.

However the size difference is heavily, HEAVILY outweighed by Michael's absolute dominant offensive game and flawless perimeter defense (The most fundamentally sound perimeter player to play the game.). LeBron's low post defense and rebounding is unproven and often overrated. I'm not taking away from his ability to play point while still playing the 4, but he's a liability in the low post, he often gets manhandled when trying to get in position for a rebound and often gets bailed out down low. LeBron's physique I will say does make it easier for him in transition and in the open floor where guys often don't even try to contest, but he isn't much faster and in his prime MJ might have just as much hops, I mean he literally dunked on Mutombo and Pat head on! The physical difference doesn't outweigh the difference in skill.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

You dudes saying it has already happened aren't ******ed at all. Matter of fact, I wish we were closer friends. I need like $4k, and I know you'd loan it to me if I told you it's possible I get this $350k job in a couple months.

I mean, it's like it has already happened.

Huh?

 

[shoeking2101]

See, this is what I mean. Lebron is in his 10th season right now, his trajectory doesn't project GOAT?

If he continues doing what he's doing in his 10th season, he doesn't end up GOAT?

So Lebron isn't dominating the NBA in a similar way that Jordan was doing in his 10th season? Lebron James has been the best player in the league for the past 5 years, and has been undisputed for the past 3 to 4. The same could have been said about Jordan in his 10th season. I know where your head is at if you think Jordan was the undisputed greatest of all time in his 10th season.

And it's completely fair to say that Lebron is a more talented basketball player than Jordan. Jordan's footwork was supreme, but beyond that it's really bleak.

 

[carltonjunior]

Ya. It's not like I'm saying he's wayy better. There's simply certain things Lebron can do that Jordan wasnt capable of where as there's nothing Jordan could do that Lebron couldn't. Unless you wanna say Jordan was better at making Free Throws that's about it.

Better jumper at every spot on the floor, top 2 one-on-one player in the history of the game, lockdown defender (much better perimeter defender LeBron to this point but LeBron can fix that if he ever played the 3 again.), better touch at the rim, better offensive post game (LeBron has a good post game though.). The only thing LeBron has on MJ is 2 inches and some muscle. I will say that LeBron is capable of more, yes, but in terms of as you say "basketball skill" he doesn't stand a CHANCE in comparison.

 

[Clyde Frog]

However the size difference is heavily, HEAVILY outweighed by Michael's absolute dominant offensive game and flawless perimeter defense (The most fundamentally sound perimeter player to play the game.). LeBron's low post defense and rebounding is unproven and often overrated. I'm not taking away from his ability to play point while still playing the 4, but he's a liability in the low post, he often gets manhandled when trying to get in position for a rebound and often gets bailed out down low. LeBron's physique I will say does make it easier for him in transition and in the open floor where guys often don't even try to contest, but he isn't much faster and in his prime MJ might have just as much hops, I mean he literally dunked on Mutombo and Pat head on! The physical difference doesn't outweigh the difference in skill.

Lebron doesn't get man handled going for rebounds. Michales absolute dominance on offense, yes he was. But at the same time look at wht Lebron is doing right now.

The thing is though, your using arguments against Lebron that dont even apply to Jordan. Jordan was never required to D up a power forward so you can't bash his low post defense or his ability to position for a rebound. If we're going to compare their talent we have to use the same standards. We can't make them different because Lebron is capable of playing every position and Jordan can't. Whether or not Lebrons post game could be improved the fact that he is capable of being down there should be to his advantage in this argument.

Better jumper at every spot on the floor, top 2 one-on-one player in the history of the game, lockdown defender (much better perimeter defender LeBron to this point but LeBron can fix that if he ever played the 3 again.), better touch at the rim, better offensive post game (LeBron has a good post game though.). The only thing LeBron has on MJ is 2 inches and some muscle. I will say that LeBron is capable of more, yes, but in terms of as you say "basketball skill" he doesn't stand a CHANCE in comparison.

Better jumper probably, but what does it matter if Lebron is putting up 30+ while shooting 60%? Lebron hasn't been missing from anywhere on the floor this year. Defense is a tricky one. Again perhaps Jordan can lock down his opposing 2 Gaurd better. But Lebron shut down Rose for an entire series and can hold down a big which Jordan wasnt capable of. So who was really better.

Better touch at the rim? C'mon bruh...

I gotta go to bed though I can only do this argument for so long and I don't know why I entered to begin with lol. Good argument though. Hostility shouldn't be a requirement in these arguments.

 

[dt43]

Can people stop using this "same age" stuff? Lebron is 10 years in the L. By Jordan's 10th season, he was the GOAT..

The most anyone can do right now is argue for Lebron being more talented than Jordan in certain aspects. But in terms of overall dominance as a player, Jordan wins going away. We've seen 10 seasons from Lebron at this point. Based on how those 10 seasons have gone, many people will say we've seen enough to know that Lebron and Jordan are on different trajectories.

See, this is what I mean. Lebron is in his 10th season right now, his trajectory doesn't project GOAT?

If he continues doing what he's doing in his 10th season, he doesn't end up GOAT?

So Lebron isn't dominating the NBA in a similar way that Jordan was doing in his 10th season? Lebron James has been the best player in the league for the past 5 years, and has been undisputed for the past 3 to 4. The same could have been said about Jordan in his 10th season. I know where your head is at if you think Jordan was the undisputed greatest of all time in his 10th season.

Considering that his best season still does not compare to several of Jordan's best seasons, no. He will need to take it to another level.

Jordan's 9th season was when he wrapped up the first three peat. He wasn't considered the GOAT by then? Come on man, you're better than that.. just go on youtube right now and watch some old broadcasts from the early 90s. You'll hear him casually referred to as the greatest ever on multiple occasions by Magic Johnson, Bob Costas, etc.

I'm not trying to discuss it because I don't think its going to happen but Lebron is only 28 playing the best ball of his career and you are talking out of your ***.

Dude is the best player in the NBA right now and its not close.

Different trajectories

Okay, so you admit that there are currently no grounds for this discussion then. Lebron is obviously going to end up as an all-time great, but people always want to jump the gun. Jordan is who he is for a reason.

 

[mister friendly]

See, this is what I mean. Lebron is in his 10th season right now, his trajectory doesn't project GOAT?

If he continues doing what he's doing in his 10th season, he doesn't end up GOAT?

So Lebron isn't dominating the NBA in a similar way that Jordan was doing in his 10th season? Lebron James has been the best player in the league for the past 5 years, and has been undisputed for the past 3 to 4. The same could have been said about Jordan in his 10th season. I know where your head is at if you think Jordan was the undisputed greatest of all time in his 10th season.

No hes not on that trajectory yet

Do you realize hes only currently only 1/6 of the way now? and hes lost 2 Finals already

And Lebron hasn't been the undisputed best player for that long.... He really only took over that distinct in like the 11-12 season. We cant forget how small he came up in 09-10 and 10-11. We were still having Kobe vs Lebron debates halfway thru the 10-11 season.

His championship runs and in turn his greatness trajectory are really dependant on how long Wade can be dominant too....and really how much longer with that be? Maybe 2 years considering that Wades game is still mainly based off driving past people.

Do you really think the Heat are gonna win the NBA Finals for like 6 straight seasons?

Is Lebron gonna get 3 more MVP awards?

I don't yall realize how great Jordans pure Basketball legacy is

 

[dt43]

^Thank you.

Not gonna lie, I wrote you off as a wack poster due to the uggs you stay posting in the girl appreciation threads.. but I was wrong

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I thought about it a little bit.

In the 2011 Finals Jason Terry called out Lebron, He basically said he couldn't guard him for a full 7 game series.

Jason Terry.

Jason Terry then proceeded to outplay Lebron for the remainder of the series to win a championship.

Jason Eugene Terry.

Yeah brah the Greatest of All Time ain't letting a dude like Jason Terry or even Shawn Marion talk **** and out play him with a ring on the line.

Its possible Lebron wins 5 outta 7 titles but its also possible I'll hit the lottery tomorrow.

I will say this though, bringing up Lebron losing in 2007 is a bad thing is stupid to me. It was only his greatness that got that team there in the first place.

 

[durantula]

I thought about it a little bit.

In the 2011 Finals Jason Terry called out Lebron, He basically said he couldn't guard him for a full 7 game series.

Jason Terry.

Jason Terry then proceeded to outplay Lebron for the remainder of the series to win a championship.

Jason Eugene Terry.

Yeah brah the Greatest of All Time ain't letting a dude like Jason Terry or even Shawn Marion talk **** and out play him with a ring on the line.

Its possible Lebron wins 5 outta 7 titles but its also possible I'll hit the lottery tomorrow.

I will say this though, bringing up Lebron losing in 2007 is a bad thing is stupid to me. It was only his greatness that got that team there in the first place.

Im dying at the jason eugene terry part

But ya the first series was just unfair, Pop being one of the greatest coaches of all time with a squad, Lebron stood no chance. Nor does he to be the greatest of all time while already being 1-3 with a choke performance like no other.

 

[duba169]

Nobody says he choked against the spurs. Not cracking 25 points can be a criticism, but not losing the games

His failure against the mavs was epic and historical. They were talking so much **** to him and backing it up. He straight up disappeared on a super team. At that point many people said that's it as far as greatest everrrrrr

MJ might lose but he never did anything like that.

 

[al3xis]

If winning multiple titles is the end-all-be-all how in the world can a thread go 11 pages and Phil Jackson's name not get brought up once? I know it's the elephant in the room for Jordan and Kobe fans, so it amuses me.

 

[solarius49]

If winning multiple titles is the end-all-be-all how in the world can a thread go 11 pages and Phil Jackson's name not get brought up once? I know it's the elephant in the room for Jordan and Kobe fans, so it amuses me.

because we are debating the worth of individuals, not only team success. Phil Jackson helped make those teams successful (albeit they already had DOMINANT players before he got there). But Phil Jackson (nor Spolestra) make either of their respective players great individually. MJ was dominating before Phil ever got there, the team was able to put together title runs with him


also, if we were talking about taking the Raptors from irrelevance to title contenders thats one thing, but we're talking about 2 teams with top players in NBA History (Shaq, Kobe/MJ, Scottie)

 

[clyde the glide]

what has phil done without mj and kobe

 

[al3xis]

People agree in say winning multiple championships define your career - going with the simple 'math rule'. That you NEED 6 to sit next to Jordan - that 6 for 6 was/is/will be the ultimate that can't be touched. If Wade, Pippen and everyone else factor in - Phil Jackson's dominance as a coach sure should. But it gets glossed over because it does nothing to help strengthen the other side of the argument.

what has phil done without mj and kobe

October 1993, NY Times: "Coach Riley ought to have himself a good laugh watching his favorite spitting-contest partner, Coach Phil Jackson, attempt to squeeze 45 victories out of the Chicago Bulls."

Instead he led them to 55 wins and took the NBA favorites in 1994 to 7 games, an inkling that the guy was amazing.

Phil won 5 without Jordan. Won 6 without Kobe. Kobe never made the Finals without Phil. Jordan never made the Finals without Phil. This is not opinion, it's fact.


*Jordan is and will almost certainly retain GOAT status. LeBron also has a decent amount of work to do to catch Kobe. LeBron's also now working with a very bright young coach who has learned from his mistakes and grown with LeBron and not continued, as he admitted, 'put him in a box' . This just irks me as much as people thinking the game of yesteryear was so physical that today's guys couldn't survive. Not that anyone would ever mention that flagrant foul rules were altered and enforced greater starting in the 1990-1991. Seems like someone himself may have benefited from a little softening up. But don't let that distort the folk tales.

Better jumper at every spot on the floor

Every spot? Not really, LeBron's a better 3pt shooter. It might end up not being close. And another did-you-know: 2 of Jordan's 3 best 3pt shooting seasons came with the shortened 3pt line of 22 feet during the 1995-1997 experiment to increase scoring. Another subject that would get swept under the rug if given the opportunity.

Considering LeBron's a better mid-range shooter the past 4 seasons than: Durant, Kobe, Melo, Pierce, Harden, Gay, Johnson, Granger and any other SG/SF peer - I wish Jordan's mid range #'s could have been tracked to see how close it actually is. Jordan was better, no doubt - but maybe not as drastic as believed.

 

[clyde the glide]

R u suggesting that lebron would have 3-5 rings atleast If he had Phil as his coach for just as long as Kobe and mike did?

 

[ricky409]

You dudes saying it has already happened aren't ******ed at all. Matter of fact, I wish we were closer friends. I need like $4k, and I know you'd loan it to me if I told you it's possible I get this $350k job in a couple months.

I mean, it's like it has already happened.

if you got a few interviews lined up, and your qualified enough to get the job, then that sounds like a nice bet.

Bron has the skill and numbers to be the best... what's wrong with making the bet?

 

[ricky409]

I really can't believe some of the arguments people reach for...

Negative points against bron b/c he took Larry Hughes to the finals against one of the all time greatestcoaches and GREATEST PF of all time...

And because he isn't the top post defender ... even though he'll clamp damb near any perimeter player... a la d rose...

People brush over the fact that NOBODY ON EARTH was stopping Dirk nowitzki last finals... NOBODY ...

I hate how good the mavs play just gets swept under the rug in the series. Go back and watch...

What current NBA player would have stopped Dirk that playoff run??