Why is Detroit is in such a rough shape?

 Great thread so far, fellas. Most of you have covered the general gist of post-WWII Detroit's decline. From a macro-economic standpoint, the fall of Detroit is akin to that of the slave south: Just as the Old South's economy was often rooted in mono-crop exchange which left it exposed to ecological exhaustion of soil and a turbulent Atlantic economy, Detroit's dependence on the manufacturing sector left it vulnerable to shifts in global capitalism. Indeed, by the mid-20th century, the motor vehicle industry was by far the largest employer in Detroit, providing nearly 1/3 of all jobs in the city. But to focus solely on abstract market forces would deny the strategy of corporate leadership to extinguish labor radicalism. 

Deindustrialization has ravaged Detroit. Although automation played a role in closing and downsizing industrial plants, automation is not the mark of some inevitable technological process. It was undoubtedly encouraged among corporate leaders to weaken unions. GM, Ford, and Chrysler initially relocated their factories to suburban Detroit and then to small mid-west cities. It is not a coincidence that these companies moved to places that would later enact right-to-work laws, or legislation that prohibits unionization as a condition for employment. Arguments about corporate greed doesn't get us anywhere. After all, the nature of capitalism is the incessant search for cheap land and cheap labor. The key is to situate corporate decision making within a distinct historical context of labor militancy. 

A bunch of you have cited "unions" as the central reason for Detroit's "rough shape." You should be weary of indiscriminate union bashing, for you might find yourself in bed with modern conservatives who wish to roll back the positives to which Lfuqua referenced. There has been a 60+ year war on unions. Starting with the Taft Hartley Act of 1947, which in overturning the Wagner Act, prohibited Wildcat strikes, secondary boycotts, and opened the way to the proliferation of right-to-work legislation, which in states like Alabama, Indiana, and the like means the right to starve. Reagan won a major victory for corporate capitalism by firing the nearly 12,000 striking PATCO employees. And how can we forget about Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin's attempt to take away the right of public sector unions to collectively bargain? By painting a broad stroke implicating unions as the cause of Detroit's woes, you serve as the mouthpiece of the modern conservative project which would happily return to the days of laissez-faire liberalism.

The way I see it, unions can be criticized on the basis of their history of racism and the ascendancy of labor aristocrats. During the 1940s The UAW was pivotal in securing the right to collectively bargain, providing workers with well-deserved pay packages and benefits, and, thanks to seniority rules, ensured a relative degree of stability among unionized autoworkers. However, this positive could take on a racist character. First, hiring practices were highly decentralized and differed across the numerous auto plants throughout Detroit. In short, the ability of black Americans to gain employment depended on place. Secondly, because of the entrenched localism within the UAW organizational structure, local union leadership could ensure that for African Americans, seniority rules meant "last hired, and first fired." When unionization was linked to housing, within the UAW local 3 white rank-and-file members engaged in hate strikes against African American unionization and to guard against "Negro invasions." And then there's the labor "fat cats," as they are commonly referred. Although not tied to the auto sector, people like Jimmy Hoffa were corrupt, engaged in fraud, and relied on his gang of thugs to enforce his rule. George Meany of the AFL-CIO was brazenly homophobic and supported the Vietnam war. 

Obviously demographics and politics are important in explaining the state of Detroit. But it all starts with recognizing the principle rule of capitalism stated above and recognizing that the history of unions is a story of radicalism and racialism. Check out Thomas Sugrue's The Origins of the Urban Crisis not only for the definitive account of post-war Detroit but also for the story of the rust belt. 
 
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I forgot about ninjahoods original question.
The auto makers started to spread out across the country to keep transportation costs down and took the jobs with them
 
In my opinion, immigration reform would remedy alot of these problems as well...when NYC experienced white flight, da mass influx of dominicans. ricans, west indians

kept NYC populated and cultured when da preceeding demographic abandoned da city for da burbs...maybe its time for detroit to someone entice migrant workers to make a home

in that city.
 
 


as a NYer occupying a major city, things like this completely baffle me...you mean to tell me ya got multiple abandoned skyscrapers in Detroit just doing absolutely nothing?

can any NTers from da D or around da area just comment on da culture over there.....place looks like i am legend...makes da bronx in da 70s-80s look like wall street in comparison.
 
have to look at Unions too. Greed isn't one sided.

Unions are not nearly as powerful as what they were in the 60s.. And that trend started happening in the early to mid 1970s.

If you look at what unions benefit workers now as opposed to 40 years ago, you'd be shocked.

And a lot of the decay has happened after unions were dismantled..

As someone who has studied unions extensively... Unions are a very minimal blame for what happened in Detroit.. Anyone who suggest their contribution was even close to a major blame is working off generalized assumptions of political propaganda that started with Nixon and the "Silent Majority" and "Southern Strategy"



The answer of Detroit's economic woes is simple... Capitalism.
 
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 Great thread so far, fellas. Most of you have covered the general gist of post-WWII Detroit's decline. From a macro-economic standpoint, the fall of Detroit is akin to that of the slave south: Just as the Old South's economy was often rooted in mono-crop exchange which left it exposed to ecological exhaustion of soil and a turbulent Atlantic economy, Detroit's dependence on the manufacturing sector left it vulnerable to shifts in global capitalism. Indeed, by the mid-20th century, the motor vehicle industry was by far the largest employer in Detroit, providing nearly 1/3 of all jobs in the city. But to focus solely on abstract market forces would deny the strategy of corporate leadership to extinguish labor radicalism. 

Deindustrialization has ravaged Detroit. Although automation played a role in closing and downsizing industrial plants, automation is not the mark of some inevitable technological process. It was undoubtedly encouraged among corporate leaders to weaken unions. GM, Ford, and Chrysler initially relocated their factories to suburban Detroit and then to small mid-west cities. It is not a coincidence that these companies moved to places that would later enact right-to-work laws, or legislation that prohibits unionization as a condition for employment. Arguments about corporate greed doesn't get us anywhere. After all, the nature of capitalism is the incessant search for cheap land and cheap labor. The key is to situate corporate decision making within a distinct historical context of labor militancy. 

A bunch of you have cited "unions" as the central reason for Detroit's "rough shape." You should be weary of indiscriminate union bashing, for you might find yourself in bed with modern conservatives who wish to roll back the positives to which Lfuqua referenced. There has been a 60+ year war on unions. Starting with the Taft Hartley Act of 1947, which in overturning the Wagner Act, prohibited Wildcat strikes, secondary boycotts, and opened the way to the proliferation of right-to-work legislation, which in states like Alabama, Indiana, and the like means the right to starve. Reagan won a major victory for corporate capitalism by firing the nearly 12,000 striking PATCO employees. And how can we forget about Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin's attempt to take away the right of public sector unions to collectively bargain? By painting a broad stroke implicating unions as the cause of Detroit's woes, you serve as the mouthpiece of the modern conservative project which would happily return to the days of laissez-faire liberalism.

The way I see it, unions can be criticized on the basis of their history of racism and the ascendancy of labor aristocrats. During the 1940s The UAW was pivotal in securing the right to collectively bargain, providing workers with well-deserved pay packages and benefits, and, thanks to seniority rules, ensured a relative degree of stability among unionized autoworkers. However, this positive could take on a racist character. First, hiring practices were highly decentralized and differed across the numerous auto plants throughout Detroit. In short, the ability of black Americans to gain employment depended on place. Secondly, because of the entrenched localism within the UAW organizational structure, local union leadership could ensure that for African Americans, seniority rules meant "last hired, and first fired." When unionization was linked to housing, within the UAW local 3 white rank-and-file members engaged in hate strikes against African American unionization and to guard against "Negro invasions." And then there's the labor "fat cats," as they are commonly referred. Although not tied to the auto sector, people like Jimmy Hoffa were corrupt, engaged in fraud, and relied on his gang of thugs to enforce his rule. George Meany of the AFL-CIO was brazenly homophobic and supported the Vietnam war. 

Obviously demographics and politics are important in explaining the state of Detroit. But it all starts with recognizing the principle rule of capitalism stated above and recognizing that the history of unions is a story of radicalism and racialism. Check out Thomas Sugrue's The Origins of the Urban Crisis not only for the definitive account of post-war Detroit but also for the story of the rust belt. 

Read your entire post. Thank you! I actually learned something. :D
 
Detroit is basically as bad as it looks. I lived there for basically 2 springs and summers... and have visited in the winter.

It's pretty hard to capture the complete "abandoned-ness" of the whole city in a video... Detroit is a huge city geographically, so there is a lot to cover.

The videos that you do see (such as the first one above) really don't go into the actual neighborhood/residential blocks... those are really when you start to see how weird things are. I can honestly say that I have seen ONE actually decent area of houses (basically a stretch of a few blocks) in Detroit proper... Rosedale Park for those who are familiar with the city (west side Detroit). Of course, it is bordered by Brightmoor, which is probably one of the worst places in Detroit (whole residential blocks full of overgrowth, weeds, and trees... abandoned schools... basically zero businesses, even on the main "mile" streets... etc.). Of course, that goes for many parts of Detroit... but Brightmoor is pretty bad (talking to people, that's where a lot of the drugs go through out of the city and into the suburbs).

Tons of bad places... basically all of Highland Park... east side Detroit is kind of cool to see, since it had a lot of the nicer houses back in the day (key word: HAD... definitely has the best ruins now)... but again, there are only a handful of neighborhood blocks that I have seen that don't have abandoned spaces/homes/ruins (and even if you don't see any of those aforementioned things on a particular block, you will see some pretty grisly looking homes for sure... and all of the houses are basically all small/same size/look a like).

Again, the videos don't show the neighborhood areas very well... most of what I have seen focuses on the downtown area (and all of the big factories and buildings that are abandoned... those sure do make up a huge part, but you gotta' actually see the people living there and where they live to get the full picture in my opinion). Ironically (or perhaps not, since most videos I have seen focus there), downtown is actually the nicest place in Detroit... probably the only place you would feel at all safe to be in after dark.

My recommendation for everyone would be to take the Grand River bus (oh yeah, the buses are great... all of them are beat up in some way or another... and forget about actually being reliable, not that many of the people riding them are actually going anywhere)... start up around 7 Mile and go towards the city (the bus stops downtown at the transit center). You pretty much get to see the ruins of many of those small "hole in the wall" businesses, the junk/trash everywhere, parts of the residential streets, and very few people (at least not as many as you would expect near the downtown of a major US city; this trip is particularly eery to do during the winter with the gray skies and everything).

Long post, but again, Detroit really is as bad as it looks. It is quite the experience going there, and I do recommend it (it's just hard to really get to everything in a single trip because it's so big).
 
 Great thread so far, fellas. Most of you have covered the general gist of post-WWII Detroit's decline. From a macro-economic standpoint, the fall of Detroit is akin to that of the slave south: Just as the Old South's economy was often rooted in mono-crop exchange which left it exposed to ecological exhaustion of soil and a turbulent Atlantic economy, Detroit's dependence on the manufacturing sector left it vulnerable to shifts in global capitalism. Indeed, by the mid-20th century, the motor vehicle industry was by far the largest employer in Detroit, providing nearly 1/3 of all jobs in the city. But to focus solely on abstract market forces would deny the strategy of corporate leadership to extinguish labor radicalism. 

Deindustrialization has ravaged Detroit. Although automation played a role in closing and downsizing industrial plants, automation is not the mark of some inevitable technological process. It was undoubtedly encouraged among corporate leaders to weaken unions. GM, Ford, and Chrysler initially relocated their factories to suburban Detroit and then to small mid-west cities. It is not a coincidence that these companies moved to places that would later enact right-to-work laws, or legislation that prohibits unionization as a condition for employment. Arguments about corporate greed doesn't get us anywhere. After all, the nature of capitalism is the incessant search for cheap land and cheap labor. The key is to situate corporate decision making within a distinct historical context of labor militancy. 

A bunch of you have cited "unions" as the central reason for Detroit's "rough shape." You should be weary of indiscriminate union bashing, for you might find yourself in bed with modern conservatives who wish to roll back the positives to which Lfuqua referenced. There has been a 60+ year war on unions. Starting with the Taft Hartley Act of 1947, which in overturning the Wagner Act, prohibited Wildcat strikes, secondary boycotts, and opened the way to the proliferation of right-to-work legislation, which in states like Alabama, Indiana, and the like means the right to starve. Reagan won a major victory for corporate capitalism by firing the nearly 12,000 striking PATCO employees. And how can we forget about Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin's attempt to take away the right of public sector unions to collectively bargain? By painting a broad stroke implicating unions as the cause of Detroit's woes, you serve as the mouthpiece of the modern conservative project which would happily return to the days of laissez-faire liberalism.

The way I see it, unions can be criticized on the basis of their history of racism and the ascendancy of labor aristocrats. During the 1940s The UAW was pivotal in securing the right to collectively bargain, providing workers with well-deserved pay packages and benefits, and, thanks to seniority rules, ensured a relative degree of stability among unionized autoworkers. However, this positive could take on a racist character. First, hiring practices were highly decentralized and differed across the numerous auto plants throughout Detroit. In short, the ability of black Americans to gain employment depended on place. Secondly, because of the entrenched localism within the UAW organizational structure, local union leadership could ensure that for African Americans, seniority rules meant "last hired, and first fired." When unionization was linked to housing, within the UAW local 3 white rank-and-file members engaged in hate strikes against African American unionization and to guard against "Negro invasions." And then there's the labor "fat cats," as they are commonly referred. Although not tied to the auto sector, people like Jimmy Hoffa were corrupt, engaged in fraud, and relied on his gang of thugs to enforce his rule. George Meany of the AFL-CIO was brazenly homophobic and supported the Vietnam war. 

Obviously demographics and politics are important in explaining the state of Detroit. But it all starts with recognizing the principle rule of capitalism stated above and recognizing that the history of unions is a story of radicalism and racialism. Check out Thomas Sugrue's The Origins of the Urban Crisis not only for the definitive account of post-war Detroit but also for the story of the rust belt. 
Read your entire post. Thank you! I actually learned something.
happy.gif
fantastic post
 
This video was made in 2011 and now its a reality that Im living every day. You have no idea how it feels to have someone shred your fairly bargained contract, cut your wages, and benefits, and then on top of that, raise your healthcare costs when you're already grossly underpaid. (And no, for reasons im not gonna get into on NT, its not simple as leave and get another job)

If you do come to Detroit, visit Greenfield Village and take the Henry Ford factory tour. Its pretty cool to see the history of cars and how theyre made on the assembly line. You'll also get a brief history of unions and other things on your bus tour while on the way to the factory/movie theater. People were literally making pennies a day in conditions that weren't even comparable to factories in China today. I challenge anyone that says unions aren't necessary to do a little independent research.
 
From what I understand, the car manufactures left and took the jobs with them.

No jobs = poverty = crime.
Well Detroit once had almost 2 million people now it's just over 700k, property taxes for a small house in the hood are pretty much as high as a mini mansion in Birmingham (an extremely affluent suburb)


DETROIT is so poor because most of the people with money left a while ago, the fact that Oakland County, the county right next to Wayne County which is what Detroit belongs to, is one of the richest counties in the US kinda points to the fact that Detroit was pretty much vacated, not to mention Grosse Pointe Park/farms and St Claire Shores are neighboring cities and it's a night and day difference


That's how Detroit got to become bad, people not paying taxes, and crime makes it worse
 
so da cats wit money left detroit to da suburbs...hmmmmm...what made people leave? what it da tax rate? crime?...looks like it been going on since da 1950's from what ive

read so far...and i've gotten a grasp at why its horrible now, but what started da intital exodus?
 
Detroit > Chicago.
I'd take the raging poverty of Detroit over Chicago's sure chance of getting killed by some mindless zombie goon.
...

:rofl:

C'mon man, really? Educate yourself before you make comments like that.

Murders in Chicago in 2011: 433. Chicago's population: 2.7 million
Murders in Detroit in 2011: 346. Detroit's population: 713,000

At that rate, if Detroit had the same population as Chicago, there would be 1300+ murders.

The D is leaps and bounds worse than the Chi both in violence and poverty. Just because it isn't a focal point of the news doesn't mean people ain't getting popped on the regular.
 
detroit been bad. Rough national economy and no jobs. Not all of detroit is broke though.
 
so da cats wit money left detroit to da suburbs...hmmmmm...what made people leave? what it da tax rate? crime?...looks like it been going on since da 1950's from what ive

read so far...and i've gotten a grasp at why its horrible now, but what started da intital exodus?
You need to read more because your mostly wrong..
 
First off [COLOR=#red]ninjahood,[/COLOR] I want to commend you for even thinking about visiting another city within the US that isn't New York City. That's the kind of growth and maturity that I and others have been looking for from you, and that's the kind we would like to see from this point on out. You've been doing good these last few days, keep up the good work champ..
:lol:
 
so da cats wit money left detroit to da suburbs...hmmmmm...what made people leave? what it da tax rate? crime?...looks like it been going on since da 1950's from what ive

read so far...and i've gotten a grasp at why its horrible now, but what started da intital exodus?

White people left for the burbs in 50's, 60's. There was a huge black middle class in Detroit in the 60's - 70's because of the auto industry. Those factory workers used to get paid very well. You had dudes without a high school diploma, making 30k plus a year at the plant, which was a lot of money back then. Then of course you had the riots, which the city never recovered from. After that, the american auto industry declined, people lost their jobs, and the factories and plants moved. All of a sudden you had all these unemployed, uneducated people who all they know how to do is build cars, nothing else. Detroit is full of older homeless/poor dudes who can honestly tell you they were THAT n_ back in the day and not even from selling dope. Basically a number of people don't have any job skills and had to turn to crime to survive. That mentality translated down to the younger generation, combine that with the decline of the nation's economy and you have present day Detroit.

This is a very summarized version of things, but I dont feel like writing a novel.

As far as black people moving out the city, the ones that had the means to moved to the 'burbs starting in the late 80's early 90's. Especially considering the failing school system and the crime. In like the last 15 years the population has dropped by like 300,000. It used to be 1 mill+ back in the early 90's, now its barely over 700K.
 
Detroit is basically as bad as it looks. I lived there for basically 2 springs and summers... and have visited in the winter.

It's pretty hard to capture the complete "abandoned-ness" of the whole city in a video... Detroit is a huge city geographically, so there is a lot to cover.

The videos that you do see (such as the first one above) really don't go into the actual neighborhood/residential blocks... those are really when you start to see how weird things are. I can honestly say that I have seen ONE actually decent area of houses (basically a stretch of a few blocks) in Detroit proper... Rosedale Park for those who are familiar with the city (west side Detroit). Of course, it is bordered by Brightmoor, which is probably one of the worst places in Detroit (whole residential blocks full of overgrowth, weeds, and trees... abandoned schools... basically zero businesses, even on the main "mile" streets... etc.). Of course, that goes for many parts of Detroit... but Brightmoor is pretty bad (talking to people, that's where a lot of the drugs go through out of the city and into the suburbs).

Tons of bad places... basically all of Highland Park... east side Detroit is kind of cool to see, since it had a lot of the nicer houses back in the day (key word: HAD... definitely has the best ruins now)... but again, there are only a handful of neighborhood blocks that I have seen that don't have abandoned spaces/homes/ruins (and even if you don't see any of those aforementioned things on a particular block, you will see some pretty grisly looking homes for sure... and all of the houses are basically all small/same size/look a like).

Again, the videos don't show the neighborhood areas very well... most of what I have seen focuses on the downtown area (and all of the big factories and buildings that are abandoned... those sure do make up a huge part, but you gotta' actually see the people living there and where they live to get the full picture in my opinion). Ironically (or perhaps not, since most videos I have seen focus there), downtown is actually the nicest place in Detroit... probably the only place you would feel at all safe to be in after dark.

My recommendation for everyone would be to take the Grand River bus (oh yeah, the buses are great... all of them are beat up in some way or another... and forget about actually being reliable, not that many of the people riding them are actually going anywhere)... start up around 7 Mile and go towards the city (the bus stops downtown at the transit center). You pretty much get to see the ruins of many of those small "hole in the wall" businesses, the junk/trash everywhere, parts of the residential streets, and very few people (at least not as many as you would expect near the downtown of a major US city; this trip is particularly eery to do during the winter with the gray skies and everything).

Long post, but again, Detroit really is as bad as it looks. It is quite the experience going there, and I do recommend it (it's just hard to really get to everything in a single trip because it's so big).
Come on man, it's bad, but not nearly "as bad as it looks" whatever that means, whenever people visit they come here with prejudice and a negative one at that, but my mans, you rode the bus, were you stabbed/robbed/shot? because that's what almost everyone thinks will happen if they just visit (coming with their own transpo) so if you stayed here like you say, why not clear some stuff up and give the truth instead of trying to add to the negativity
 
[table][tr][th=""]City[/th][th=""]Crime Risk Index[/th][/tr][tr][td]1. St. Louis[/td][td]530[/td][/tr][tr][td]2. Atlanta[/td][td]484[/td][/tr][tr][td]3. Birmingham Alabama (tie)[/td][td]380[/td][/tr][tr][td]3. Orlando (tie)[/td][td]380[/td][/tr][tr][td]5. Detroit[/td][td]369[/td][/tr][tr][td]6. Memphis[/td][td]361[/td][/tr][tr][td]7. Miami[/td][td]346[/td][/tr][tr][td]8. Baltimore[/td][td]339[/td][/tr][tr][td]9. Kansas City, Missouri[/td][td]337[/td][/tr][tr][td]10. Minneapolis (tie)[/td][td]331[/td][/tr][tr][td]10. Cleveland (tie)[/td][td]331[/td][/tr][/table]
 
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