Where's the Human Rights outrage against the blatant racism in France?

[djprestige21]

France gives less grounds for debate around social issues such as these. Little can be said to battle these decisions.



Fortunately for America we have heavy grounds to dispute and learn to accept other's customs through something called the first amendment. From that it is a social norm to constantly debate issues such as these within America. Other nations with different societies and cultural values, not so much.

 

[djprestige21]

France gives less grounds for debate around social issues such as these. Little can be said to battle these decisions.



Fortunately for America we have heavy grounds to dispute and learn to accept other's customs through something called the first amendment. From that it is a social norm to constantly debate issues such as these within America. Other nations with different societies and cultural values, not so much.

 

[king sole]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

For the people saying they should just leave...where should they go? What about those who were born in France and have no other ties to their ancestral homelands? Is it really that easy to pick up and leave? Job? Citizenship? Language?

"Image of their country"? A lot of these people are French...and France is a democracy...and democracy is a standard of government that's ground up. Which means ideally, French culture should be a reflection of its citizens...yet some of you don't realize it.

First of all, I think it is wrong for you to call people's responses ignorant. You shouldn't judge, valid points are being made on both sides, at least I think so. It's a discussion and I respect your points. Here is what I am purporting: If a person feels that strong about their belief and convictions than they should and can move. You are right, sir. It is not easy to move. Of course it is easier said than done. However, if one's faith is THAT important that they feel a country is hindering their practice of it, why stay there?  
Just because a country is democratic does not mean it cannot pass a law that they feel is needed. The law was not passed by a despot or tyrant sir. It was voted on and only one person opposed it. There is more at stake than people's feeling. The Patriot Act was a terrible thing but it made sense to America's government at the time. So, a country's system of government does not automatically mean that they should be malleable to every citizen's need. 

By the way (not directed at you sir) it's easy to adopt the human rights/ discrimination angle and more challenging to argue the contrary. Most people feel this is wrong and I don't necessarily disagree. But, France is not entirely wrong either. Notice, I am not criticizing anyone's faith nor are my views prejudiced. Just trying to take the emotion out of it to show that the Islamic women ARE being discriminated BUT they are in France, even if they were born there. Again, they are not banning the religion BUT ONE ASPECT that interferes with their culture. They feel (not me) that a niqab is antithetical to their beliefs. That is not the ONLY reason why. There are security issues, being able to identify people and so on. It is far too complicated of a world to label such a law a violation of human rights, as stated in the title and claimed in some responses. In general, people are far too sensitive and think with their hearts over their brains.

The article being banned is in itself disputed in Islam: "The argument whether niqab is fard or not has been going on amongst scholars for centuries. Nobody can claim to have a definitive answer to this question." 

 

[king sole]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

For the people saying they should just leave...where should they go? What about those who were born in France and have no other ties to their ancestral homelands? Is it really that easy to pick up and leave? Job? Citizenship? Language?

"Image of their country"? A lot of these people are French...and France is a democracy...and democracy is a standard of government that's ground up. Which means ideally, French culture should be a reflection of its citizens...yet some of you don't realize it.

First of all, I think it is wrong for you to call people's responses ignorant. You shouldn't judge, valid points are being made on both sides, at least I think so. It's a discussion and I respect your points. Here is what I am purporting: If a person feels that strong about their belief and convictions than they should and can move. You are right, sir. It is not easy to move. Of course it is easier said than done. However, if one's faith is THAT important that they feel a country is hindering their practice of it, why stay there?  
Just because a country is democratic does not mean it cannot pass a law that they feel is needed. The law was not passed by a despot or tyrant sir. It was voted on and only one person opposed it. There is more at stake than people's feeling. The Patriot Act was a terrible thing but it made sense to America's government at the time. So, a country's system of government does not automatically mean that they should be malleable to every citizen's need. 

By the way (not directed at you sir) it's easy to adopt the human rights/ discrimination angle and more challenging to argue the contrary. Most people feel this is wrong and I don't necessarily disagree. But, France is not entirely wrong either. Notice, I am not criticizing anyone's faith nor are my views prejudiced. Just trying to take the emotion out of it to show that the Islamic women ARE being discriminated BUT they are in France, even if they were born there. Again, they are not banning the religion BUT ONE ASPECT that interferes with their culture. They feel (not me) that a niqab is antithetical to their beliefs. That is not the ONLY reason why. There are security issues, being able to identify people and so on. It is far too complicated of a world to label such a law a violation of human rights, as stated in the title and claimed in some responses. In general, people are far too sensitive and think with their hearts over their brains.

The article being banned is in itself disputed in Islam: "The argument whether niqab is fard or not has been going on amongst scholars for centuries. Nobody can claim to have a definitive answer to this question." 

 

[ittakesalittlebitmore]

*France is its own country - it doesnt apologise for making a reasoned decision, it has a right to make its own laws.
*The burqa is not compulsory under Islam, its a convention that some women choose or are chosen by others to wear.
*It is only the burqa that is being banned because it obscures the face, you can still wear a headscarf and other forms.
*Not being visible can pose a security, identification risk to the authorities and is disharmonious to intergration.
*Outward religious symbols are discouraged and/or banned in France include Christian crosses etc.
*The motto of France is Liberty, equality, fraternity . The aim of the law is to promote this by remaining a secular state by removing the millstone of religion that divides people. Let get to the point...community cannot happen if there are things that so obviously divide us such as not being able to commmunicate or see people in your own neighbourhood.
*Islamic countries have rules that apply to non-Muslims as to how they conduct themselves and what they wear (this is their right). This isnt protested half as much as the French law.
*Countries with large Islamic populations such as Egypt, Turkey and Syria have banned the burqa but are not called out because the simple fact is that they're arent white Europeans and it isnt as good a news story.



All these factors together comprise the reasoning behind the French law and if you really understood it you'd realise that is is NOT RACIST.

 

[ittakesalittlebitmore]

*France is its own country - it doesnt apologise for making a reasoned decision, it has a right to make its own laws.
*The burqa is not compulsory under Islam, its a convention that some women choose or are chosen by others to wear.
*It is only the burqa that is being banned because it obscures the face, you can still wear a headscarf and other forms.
*Not being visible can pose a security, identification risk to the authorities and is disharmonious to intergration.
*Outward religious symbols are discouraged and/or banned in France include Christian crosses etc.
*The motto of France is Liberty, equality, fraternity . The aim of the law is to promote this by remaining a secular state by removing the millstone of religion that divides people. Let get to the point...community cannot happen if there are things that so obviously divide us such as not being able to commmunicate or see people in your own neighbourhood.
*Islamic countries have rules that apply to non-Muslims as to how they conduct themselves and what they wear (this is their right). This isnt protested half as much as the French law.
*Countries with large Islamic populations such as Egypt, Turkey and Syria have banned the burqa but are not called out because the simple fact is that they're arent white Europeans and it isnt as good a news story.



All these factors together comprise the reasoning behind the French law and if you really understood it you'd realise that is is NOT RACIST.

 

[bruce negro]

It may not be racist, but I believe it is wrong. The hijab definitely plays a role in Islamic faith. I think in such well-developed religions such as Islam, these kinds of things should be respected. I believe other people would be outraged if rosaries were outlawed in our country or something along those lines

 

[bruce negro]

It may not be racist, but I believe it is wrong. The hijab definitely plays a role in Islamic faith. I think in such well-developed religions such as Islam, these kinds of things should be respected. I believe other people would be outraged if rosaries were outlawed in our country or something along those lines

 

[forgot about jae]

People talk about respecting France's existing laws and culture, when in fact this is France's REACTION to a group of people they don't wanna see eye to eye with.  

 

[forgot about jae]

People talk about respecting France's existing laws and culture, when in fact this is France's REACTION to a group of people they don't wanna see eye to eye with.  

 

[ohdannyboy]

Originally Posted by GetThisMoney

Originally Posted by King Sole

Westerners in the middle east HAVE to follow certain rules: no alcohol, certain websites are banned, women MUST be covered... So why is it that it is not acceptable if the West wants to do the same. If one has a problem and is THAT attached to their faith, they should %!+% and go back.
I am so tired of people complaining about Rules/Laws. If one feels it is discriminating, then leave. A western nation like France is well within their right to put forth a law they feel will protect the image of their country.

I am an immigrant if it matters.

Exactly i feel no remorse. I dont care about islamic customs, hence why I dont live over there.

I'm right with you. Westerners are catering to muslim needs a little too much.

 

[ohdannyboy]

Originally Posted by GetThisMoney

Originally Posted by King Sole

Westerners in the middle east HAVE to follow certain rules: no alcohol, certain websites are banned, women MUST be covered... So why is it that it is not acceptable if the West wants to do the same. If one has a problem and is THAT attached to their faith, they should %!+% and go back.
I am so tired of people complaining about Rules/Laws. If one feels it is discriminating, then leave. A western nation like France is well within their right to put forth a law they feel will protect the image of their country.

I am an immigrant if it matters.

Exactly i feel no remorse. I dont care about islamic customs, hence why I dont live over there.

I'm right with you. Westerners are catering to muslim needs a little too much.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by GetThisMoney

Originally Posted by King Sole

Westerners in the middle east HAVE to follow certain rules: no alcohol, certain websites are banned, women MUST be covered... So why is it that it is not acceptable if the West wants to do the same. If one has a problem and is THAT attached to their faith, they should %!+% and go back.
I am so tired of people complaining about Rules/Laws. If one feels it is discriminating, then leave. A western nation like France is well within their right to put forth a law they feel will protect the image of their country.

I am an immigrant if it matters.

Exactly i feel no remorse. I dont care about islamic customs, hence why I dont live over there.

I'm right with you. Westerners are catering to muslim needs a little too much.

I agree.  We should ban all religious symbols in public.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by GetThisMoney

Originally Posted by King Sole

Westerners in the middle east HAVE to follow certain rules: no alcohol, certain websites are banned, women MUST be covered... So why is it that it is not acceptable if the West wants to do the same. If one has a problem and is THAT attached to their faith, they should %!+% and go back.
I am so tired of people complaining about Rules/Laws. If one feels it is discriminating, then leave. A western nation like France is well within their right to put forth a law they feel will protect the image of their country.

I am an immigrant if it matters.

Exactly i feel no remorse. I dont care about islamic customs, hence why I dont live over there.

I'm right with you. Westerners are catering to muslim needs a little too much.

I agree.  We should ban all religious symbols in public.

 

[rashi]

Not racist? Are some of ya'll ******ed? You think if Muslims were predominantly White this would be an issue?


Are White Orthodox Jewish women BANNED in France from wearing SHEITELS (wigs and head covers) which they are forced to wear? NO.



The ignorance would be comical if it wasn't so serious.

 

[rashi]

Not racist? Are some of ya'll ******ed? You think if Muslims were predominantly White this would be an issue?


Are White Orthodox Jewish women BANNED in France from wearing SHEITELS (wigs and head covers) which they are forced to wear? NO.



The ignorance would be comical if it wasn't so serious.

 

[thegoldenchild]

i dont think it is all racism, because if christians would wear the Sheitels like that, they'd get the same treatment. besides they know the french government doesnt approve of it, almost all european countries dont, because it scares people. they dont know what or who is underneath all of it. and as far as i know, they are not forced to wear a sheitel nor a burka. i have plenty of friends whose mother or sister do not wear them, and they are strict muslims.

let's say 20 years ago, no one saw them wear that out in public, and now all of a sudden they feel the need to? thats fine, but also understand that muslims are not in a country where that culture is widely known, so once they are in a different country, they have to adjust to the rules and regulations of that country.

 

[thegoldenchild]

i dont think it is all racism, because if christians would wear the Sheitels like that, they'd get the same treatment. besides they know the french government doesnt approve of it, almost all european countries dont, because it scares people. they dont know what or who is underneath all of it. and as far as i know, they are not forced to wear a sheitel nor a burka. i have plenty of friends whose mother or sister do not wear them, and they are strict muslims.

let's say 20 years ago, no one saw them wear that out in public, and now all of a sudden they feel the need to? thats fine, but also understand that muslims are not in a country where that culture is widely known, so once they are in a different country, they have to adjust to the rules and regulations of that country.

 

[king sole]

Originally Posted by rashi

Not racist? Are some of ya'll ******ed? You think if Muslims were predominantly White this would be an issue?
Are White Orthodox Jewish women BANNED in France from wearing SHEITELS (wigs and head covers) which they are forced to wear? NO.
The ignorance would be comical if it wasn't so serious.

Sir, why the name calling? It's unnecessary. If you read the laws of France they apply to all religions. French people of Caucasian descent are also not allowed to display their religious paraphernalia in public. Also, you are assuming that there are no white Muslims. If a White Muslim women wears a niqab, the law also applies to her. It is really not a racial issue. 
Also, the law DOES not prohibit covering your body. It opposes covering your face. Orthodox Jewish women, as you pointed out, wear wigs and head covers, NOT FACE COVERS. France is a secular country, that is a part of the country's tradition and they are doing what THEY feel is correct to preserve that tradition. Although the law targets a specific group, according to them it is correct.  

I mean this in jest, but if my wife were a ninja, this law would apply to her because she is covering her face. The following people would also be "targets of the law": Scorpion, 

Sub-zero, Kitana, Milana, Spider man, Batman, and so on. 

Seriously though, the law does target and perhaps is discriminatory but it is not a "human rights" issue. France is a sovereign nation and has the right to enact a specific law that they feel protects their interest. I DO NOT MEAN THIS SPECIFICALLY TO A SINGLE GROUP, but many minority groups are extremely sensitive. And do not think logically. Religion, culture, customs are emotional issues to them and they fight for them with great fervor. 

Lastly, there isn't going to be a gestapo coming into a person's home and arresting them because of their religion. In a privacy of one's home a person can and should do whatever they wish. However, schools, streets etc... are public places and things become more complicated. All I am saying is, without calling you names or saying your argument is invalid, that France is not wrong and this anti-French sentiments among certain people is an emotional response and not logical. I felt the same way as you did until I made myself familiar with the issue and read and I do not mean wikipedia.   
 

 

[king sole]

Originally Posted by rashi

Not racist? Are some of ya'll ******ed? You think if Muslims were predominantly White this would be an issue?
Are White Orthodox Jewish women BANNED in France from wearing SHEITELS (wigs and head covers) which they are forced to wear? NO.
The ignorance would be comical if it wasn't so serious.

Sir, why the name calling? It's unnecessary. If you read the laws of France they apply to all religions. French people of Caucasian descent are also not allowed to display their religious paraphernalia in public. Also, you are assuming that there are no white Muslims. If a White Muslim women wears a niqab, the law also applies to her. It is really not a racial issue. 
Also, the law DOES not prohibit covering your body. It opposes covering your face. Orthodox Jewish women, as you pointed out, wear wigs and head covers, NOT FACE COVERS. France is a secular country, that is a part of the country's tradition and they are doing what THEY feel is correct to preserve that tradition. Although the law targets a specific group, according to them it is correct.  

I mean this in jest, but if my wife were a ninja, this law would apply to her because she is covering her face. The following people would also be "targets of the law": Scorpion, 

Sub-zero, Kitana, Milana, Spider man, Batman, and so on. 

Seriously though, the law does target and perhaps is discriminatory but it is not a "human rights" issue. France is a sovereign nation and has the right to enact a specific law that they feel protects their interest. I DO NOT MEAN THIS SPECIFICALLY TO A SINGLE GROUP, but many minority groups are extremely sensitive. And do not think logically. Religion, culture, customs are emotional issues to them and they fight for them with great fervor. 

Lastly, there isn't going to be a gestapo coming into a person's home and arresting them because of their religion. In a privacy of one's home a person can and should do whatever they wish. However, schools, streets etc... are public places and things become more complicated. All I am saying is, without calling you names or saying your argument is invalid, that France is not wrong and this anti-French sentiments among certain people is an emotional response and not logical. I felt the same way as you did until I made myself familiar with the issue and read and I do not mean wikipedia.   
 

 

[lilpro4u]

So even IF that country restricts them from being an individual? The fear of Euro societies is nuthin other than islamaphobia. 

 

[lilpro4u]

So even IF that country restricts them from being an individual? The fear of Euro societies is nuthin other than islamaphobia. 

 

[jordanhendrix]

and bottom line that aint freedom, regardless of who it targets. Not cool. Maybe racist maybe not, doesnt matter. Whats next to be outlawed?

 

[jordanhendrix]

and bottom line that aint freedom, regardless of who it targets. Not cool. Maybe racist maybe not, doesnt matter. Whats next to be outlawed?

 

[thegoldenchild]

Originally Posted by jordanhendrix

and bottom line that aint freedom, regardless of who it targets. Not cool. Maybe racist maybe not, doesnt matter. Whats next to be outlawed?

  

perhaps, but you should also realize, in that country they do not have the same culture so being in that country you should adjust yourself to their standards, or go somewhere else. if they have rules you gotta abide by them. very simple...


I mean this in jest, but if my wife were a ninja, this law would apply to her because she is covering her face. The following people would also be "targets of the law": Scorpion, 

Sub-zero, Kitana, Milana, Spider man, Batman, and so on. 

 post of the year!!!!!