THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Official Thread - 6/28 - TV Spot 10 on Last Page (More Selina Kyle)

A friend of mine recently directed me to this.

Probably the best analysis of the film I've seen thus far:

Guest Post: Liberalism’s Dark Knight and Christopher Nolan’s Defense of Civil Society

By Jeff Spross and Zack Beauchamp on Jul 26, 2012 at 2:07 pm

There’s a lazy, irritating strain running through the critical reaction to The Dark Knight Rises. It assumes that because the protagonist is a rich philanthropist and the villain an Occupy-soundalike terrorist, the film is taking a hard-right stand on today’s political issues. You see this move from some on the left, who go as far as calling the film fascist. Others on the right are eager to deny the supposedly legitimizing Bat-mantle to liberals or to tie the Occupy movement to Bane’s unremitting violence.

It’s true that Christopher Nolan’s films blanch at armed revolution, but it’s also true that his films have nothing specific to say about the main debates that define popular American politics. Rather, the real message of the trilogy is philosophical in character: Nolan is mounting a layered defense of liberal democracy against its authoritarian opponents. The Dark Knight trilogy is saying something that most Americans assume implicitly – that best government is one that respects the rights of its citizens.

To start with The Dark Knight Rises, if the is film a dig at advocates for economic justice, it’s an extraordinarily anemic one. Virtually no screen-time is dedicated to Gotham’s social dynamics or violence by the people against elites. It’s not clear if regular Gotham citizens, or just Bane’s mercenaries and hangers-on, are participating in mass looting depicted on screen. There’s no evidence of downtrodden masses cheering Bane’s arrival. By contrast, the film is peppered with little asides about the consequences of inequality: the traders at Gotham’s stock exchange are arrogant and self-absorbed, Selina Kyle’s jabs at Bruce Wayne’s wealth have bite, and Bane’s bankrollers are vulture capitalists. Viewed in this light, what’s wrong with Bane isn’t his left-wing “motivation:” indeed, that’s almost immediately shown to be an insincere fig leaf for public consumption. Rather, Bane is a villain because he uses the slaughter of innocent people as a means to attain his ends.

Giving Bane some slightly sympathetic lines is par for the course in this morally complex trilogy. Indeed, one clear continuity between the three films is that Nolan consistently puts legitimate critiques of Gotham in the mouths of the trilogy’s villains. No one, not even Batman, would argue with Ra’s Al Ghul’s claim that Gotham was a thoroughly corrupt city. Rather, Al Ghul’s mistake is concluding this entitles him to serve as Gotham’s executioner. In Batman Begins’ first act — in a scene suffused with class tension — Wayne refuses an order to behead a working class farmer as punishment for a crime. In The Dark Knight Rises, Batman’s first rule for Catwoman is “no killing.” Neither as Batman nor himself does Bruce Wayne argue that Gotham’s social structure as it stands is morally defensible. Rather, he suggests that the city is worth reforming rather than destroying.

The Joker’s nihilistic assault on “schemers” also contains some seeds of truth. When the Joker tells Harvey Dent that “no one panics when things go ‘according to plan’ — even if the plan is horrifying,” the example he uses highlights the differing ways society reacts to the deaths of soldiers and poor gang members versus rich leaders. That argument, that chaos is fair, is instrumental in transforming Dent into Two-Face. Gotham’s White Knight goes on a murder spree in part because the Joker isn’t completely wrong. Again, the reason these people are villians isn’t their diagnosis of society’s problems – it’s their cure, a murderous assault on the city’s existing political order.

Ross Douthat and John Podheretz are right in this, at least: The Dark Knight Rises does indeed endorse a kind of Burkean small-c conservatism — a preference for incremental reform over convulsively deconstructive revolt. But that’s hard to square with the modern American conservative/Republican movement, which just produced a budget seeking to dismantle many of the social institutions Americans have relied on since the New Deal and the Great Society. Shoehorning Occupy into a “the Dark Knight movies are conservative” narrative requires a reductive stereotyping of the Occupiers, simplifying the nebulous movement into a collective of radical anarchists and ignoring its respect for liberal democratic forms — as demonstrated by the general assemblies — as well as the fact that it hasn’t really damaged anything other than public grass.

The best way to understand Nolan’s political argument, such as it is, is to step away from contemporary political disputes and pick up an old essay: Judith Shklar’s “The Liberalism of Fear.” Shklar argues that the most universally acceptable moral foundation for individual rights and democracy isn’t any particular religious faith or abstract moral theory – rather, it’s that we’re all scared. We’re scared of the unchecked power of both our fellow citizens and the state, and want a political system capable of reigning in both. As she puts it, “liberalism’s deepest grounding is in place from the first, in the conviction of the earliest defenders of toleration, born in horror, that cruelty is an absolute evil, an offense against God or humanity.”

Fear, of course, is the emotion that most suffuses the Dark Knight trilogy. In Batman Begins, terror of the powerful criminal underworld (the Scarecrow’s fear gas being the literal instantiation of the idea) overwhelms the power of social institutions to address them. Batman’s role, in Bruce’s words, is to “fight injustice” by turning “fear against those who prey on the fearful.” Batman is a terrifying totem meant to restore the balance of fear between the anarchic private world and the gutless public sphere.

In The Dark Knight, Nolan continues his examination of the terror of anarchy, as personified in the Joker, but introduces its twin concern for liberal theorists like Shklar: the potential for the state and allied institutions to abuse their enormous power. The universal surveillance device Batman uses to find the Joker, while seemingly necessary, is recognized by every character who encounters it to be too dangerous to entrust to anyone. Lucius Fox’s revulsion at the device — “This is too much power for one person” — is clearly shared by Wayne, as the machine is rigged to self-destruct after use. Bruce’s boast to Alfred that “Batman has no limits” is proven false: Batman must have limits. There must be lines he cannot cross, as no one person or institution — no matter how well-intentioned — can be trusted with unlimited power. Further, the film culminates in a heroic act of mutual respect between fellow citizens on boats rigged to explode, suggesting the answer to the Joker’s challenge isn’t to abandon planning but rather to broaden our range of moral concern for the harm power can do to our fellow citizens.

Finally, The Dark Knight Rises ties the twin fears together, suggesting that the fear that pervades our lives can be turned, as Shklar suggests, to productive purposes. Bruce can only escape the prison he is consigned to once he accepts his fear as an essential part of life. In other moments, Alfred chastises him for not trusting the citizens of Gotham enough — for turning away from communal life and shared institutions to the lonely Batmissions, for never wondering whether Gotham needed Bruce Wayne more than Batman. This resonates with Shklar’s claim that “when we think politically, we are afraid not only for ourselves but for our fellow citizens as well. We fear a society of fearful people.” By accepting his own fear and finally hanging up the Batsuit, Bruce comes to understand the basic motivation behind a liberal political order in Shklar’s terms: the amelioration of one’s own fear and everyone else’s.

There’s an important caveat to add here: Nolan’s treatment of the “democracy” half of “liberal democracy” is far more cursory. That Nolan doesn’t dwell on the social dynamics of pre-Bane or Bane-occupied Gotham suggests he isn’t interested in casting advocates for economic justice in a bad light, but it also means we don’t get a visceral sense of how the people feel about anything or how they express that feeling through Gotham’s democratic institutions. The most important democratic action in the films ― like the passage of the Dent Act ― happens off-screen, with at best questionable consequences.

Part of this is just Nolan’s style of filmmaking. It’s impersonal if one’s feeling charitable, cold if one isn’t. He tends to treat his characters as cogs in a narrative machine rather than flesh-and-blood humans. This style of filmmaking can be good for exploring broad themes, but it’s a bad vehicle for depicting democratic politics, which after all is the jockeying between the particular needs, moral beliefs, and cultural quirks of different human groups.

That said, Nolan does manage to make a case for the democratic part of liberal democracy, even if it’s done in super-abstract form. The central struggle between the Batman and Joker is often described as a “battle for Gotham’s soul,” but it’s equally well understood as a struggle for Gotham’s democratic character. Harvey Dent’s psyche is the key front in their war because he’s both seemingly incorruptible and one of Gotham’s elected officials, reforming the system from the inside. Further, the moment at which the Joker truly terrifies Gotham is when he mounts an assault on Gotham’s judge, police commissioner, district attorney, and, ultimately, mayor. Dent compares Batman to a Roman protector during a suspension of democracy, and Batman spends the rest of the film trying to extricate himself from that role and rebuild Gotham’s legitimate democratic governing order. Dent, an elected official, is the key symbol because he represents the possibility for Gothamites to take their city back through open and legitimate means.

These themes do carry over into The Dark Knight Rises, even if the somewhat weaker screenplay limits the complexity of the examination. While the fact that Dent’s legacy is a seemingly authoritarian crime act founded on a lie might undermine Dent as democratic symbol — though it interestingly suggests Bane might be blowback for the Dent Act — one of The Dark Knight Rises’ key sequences ends up supporting the prior film’s embrace of democratic values. Bane takes over the city not in block-by-block battles or inside city hall; he does it at a football game, one of the great gatherings in contemporary American public life and in the one time we see an en-masse congregation of Gotham’s citizens. He terrifies Gothamites (and, indeed, they’re clearly shown to be terrified) not only by threatening nuclear apocalypse, but by blowing up the Mayor — the elected official the Joker missed. That this takes place right after the last words of the National Anthem helps to drive the point home: Bane’s hostile takeover is not an attempt to liberate the people but rather to destroy Gotham’s democracy and the public sphere that works to sustain it.

While Bane and each of Nolan’s other villains attempt to exploit fear for ideological projects, revenge, or simple fun, Batman aims to channel it — to make his opponents’ legitimate grievances subjects for debate in an orderly system rather than through violent resolution. To entrust Gotham to heroes “with a face,” as he says in The Dark Knight, and to democratize Batman as a symbol that can be embodied by anyone. It’s not that Christopher Nolan is taking a side in our political debates. He’s simply defending a particular system through which we address them.
 
Saw it yesterday thought it was pretty predictable about the ending all the "auto pilot" and Alfred hope to see Bruce in another country.

Thought it was really good. I think I may like the 2nd one a bit more. I had some type of clue dude was going to be Robin, I just said out loud " ohhh come on!" :lol

Anne in that leather :smokin

But I think they need to end it. I'm not as educated about the entire series as most of you are but if they did a Batman beyond, my favorite one from my childhood I'd see it. But if not let Nolan do other things and wait a while to continue or redo the story line.

*Just a regular fan perspective*
 
DId Bruce ever get his money back??

Not at the end of the movie; we can assume, however, that he will eventual regain his wealth because 1. Lucius stated that in the long run, they would be able to prove that Daggett was behind the unauthorized trades that led to him going broke, and 2. He's friggin Bruce Wayne and as far as I know, within the Batman mythology, Bruce Wayne was always rich, always :lol :lol


...
 
i bought a couple of blu rays at bestbuy that come with the $5 coupon to watch the dark knight rises. they expire today, and i wont have time to watch it today so if anyone wants the codes, let me know. i have 4
 
watched it for the 3rd time today. still :hat
not in Imax though... :(
I think the movie gets better as you watch it more of course without
the shock factor but still :hat

I might watch it for the 4th and final time... :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat
 
watched it for the 3rd time today. still :hat
not in Imax though... :(
I think the movie gets better as you watch it more of course without
the shock factor but still :hat
I might watch it for the 4th and final time... :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat

Agreed. The second time I watched it; I was still enjoying it all the way though until the ending where it looks like Batman sacrificed his life to get rid of the bomb. I had nowhere near the awe and :eek :( feelings I had the first time but I obviously shouldn't be surprised at that.
 
Caught it last night again. Still epic the 4th time aroound. I was too lazy to drive out to Rave Motion for the IMAX so I settled for regular large AMC theater. I'm definitely gonna try and hit up that 70mm IMAX because I doubt they'll keep it in IMAX this weekend.

Bane's voice change in the opening sequence is beginnig to irk me more and more with each viewing. I literally cringed when I heard that first line delivered in the re-recorded audio. Classic line tho:

"Well perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him from a plane."

I'm reeeeaaaalllly hoping Nolan decides on reincorporating the original audio from the prologue as the opening scene on the Blu-Ray. Might just start a petition. And the lack of IMAX sound did the movie little justice. Honestly my new home theater system I built at home probably delivers better than that non-IMAX theater.

another thing I caught on this viewing: Miranda's slight jabs and hints on who she is when she speaks to Bruce at the charity ball were really apparent.

All in all I still seem to find little fault with this film. The differences between this and TDK however do become clearer. I dozed off towards the end but that was mainly because I was tired from the day at the outlets. Really looking forward to just owning this now and completing the bluray collection. I'm hoping there's some cool packagin option for the trilogy set.
 
First time going through this thread, sorry if this has already been answered but...

Did anyone ever figure out how Bruce was able to get back into the city after he escaped from the pitt? It just seemed liked he walked back in with no trouble at all.
 
First time going through this thread, sorry if this has already been answered but...

Did anyone ever figure out how Bruce was able to get back into the city after he escaped from the pitt? It just seemed liked he walked back in with no trouble at all.
Suspend your disbelief.  Don't question it.  He just did.  LOL. 

Movie was dope.  Saw it yesterday. 
 
About to watch this for the second time.

This time I made the hour drive up to the Edwards Irvine Spectrum theater and will see this in true IMAX.

True IMAX theater is just straight dope compared to the other fake IMAX theaters.

No crowds also FTW!!! Maybe about 8 people about to catch this showing.
 
As for Bruce getting back to Gotham, he's still both Wayne and Batman.. But so he could call in a favor from past associates to get him back ASAP.fThen use his Batman training to get into the city.. Remember he and Ras trained walking and fighting on ice, so that wouldn't be a problem for him.
 
About to watch this for the second time.
This time I made the hour drive up to the Edwards Irvine Spectrum theater and will see this in true IMAX.
True IMAX theater is just straight dope compared to the other fake IMAX theaters.
No crowds also FTW!!! Maybe about 8 people about to catch this showing.

:eek @ that drive. You live in SD though. Isn't there a real IMAX down there? The screen at that IMAX can look a little dirty. At least for me I noticed a smudge on it going horizontally, maybe about a foot wide. But I think this movie deserves to be washed only in that real IMAX.
 
I'll be perfectly happy with a reboot. If it's done properly, I'd rather see that then Batman Beyond because there's still so much potential to be untapped. If they can find a balance similar to what the Avengers series has done and not make it as cheesy as the Schumacher Batman movies, it can still be good.
 
just saw this agin this past weekend and it occured to me...


why does batman talk in that douche'y voice to people that know who he is ie. selina and JB? like talk in yo normal voice cuz, ur not fooling anyone.

and that eye makeup...so like does bruce do that everytime he puts the suit on??? that looks like it'd take some time, no? does he use oil of olay to get it off? son wears eye shadow. that's not gangsta.
 
Hmm, should they even consider making another Batman film? I feel like Nolan set the standard so high for the Batman films, anything else would not be as good...It would be better if the next film would be a continuation of Nolan's storyline, where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is already Batman.

And I too said to myself, "Ohhhh, c'mon!" when they revealed his name to be Robin.
 
"With no survivors!" was so cold in the original imax prologue. Hopefully Nolan includes a wide variety of audio tracks and an extended directors cut in a trilogy collectors edition
 
Some of you guys are on crack. Nolan's trilogy blew every batman movie ever created out of the water. No point of continuing the movies if he's not involved. All 3 were instant CLASSICS. :smokin
 
Some of you guys are on crack. Nolan's trilogy blew every batman movie ever created out of the water. No point of continuing the movies if he's not involved. All 3 were instant CLASSICS. :smokin

He put such a different twist and look into Batman. I can't believe anyone could make it better.
 
Hmm, should they even consider making another Batman film? I feel like Nolan set the standard so high for the Batman films, anything else would not be as good...It would be better if the next film would be a continuation of Nolan's storyline, where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is already Batman.

And I too said to myself, "Ohhhh, c'mon!" when they revealed his name to be Robin.
But who didn't see that coming? 

Batman alluded to the fact that Blake needed to wear a mask to protect the ones he loved when they were fighting the goons in the sewer.  Everything was leading up to the Robin name drop at the end. 
 
Hmm, should they even consider making another Batman film? I feel like Nolan set the standard so high for the Batman films, anything else would not be as good...It would be better if the next film would be a continuation of Nolan's storyline, where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is already Batman.


And I too said to myself, "Ohhhh, c'mon!" when they revealed his name to be Robin.


But who didn't see that coming? 

Batman alluded to the fact that Blake needed to wear a mask to protect the ones he loved when they were fighting the goons in the sewer.  Everything was leading up to the Robin name drop at the end. 
You just made his point. Everyone saw it coming, so you can't slight him for being a little disappointed that that's really all they were gonna do with that character and build-up.
 
You just made his point. Everyone saw it coming, so you can't slight him for being a little disappointed that that's really all they were gonna do with that character and build-up.
I'm not seeing how I made his point and I also don't get the disappointment with Nolan's take on Blake's character.  This was Nolan's adaptation and I feel as though he can do what he wants because he did a damn good job with the trilogy.  Anyways, from the jump when Blake was introduced, I turned to my girl and said "I bet he's Robin." The Batman line about the mask sealed the deal.  To me, it got more and more obvious that this is where Nolan was heading as the movie went on.  As a matter of fact, I'll take back a portion of my original statement because there was STILL some surprise from those in the theater when Blake's name was revealed to be Robin.  There was applause.  So I guess not everyone saw it coming. 
 
You just made his point. Everyone saw it coming, so you can't slight him for being a little disappointed that that's really all they were gonna do with that character and build-up.

I'm not seeing how I made his point and I also don't get the disappointment with Nolan's take on Blake's character.  This was Nolan's adaptation and I feel as though he can do what he wants because he did a damn good job with the trilogy.  Anyways, from the jump when Blake was introduced, I turned to my girl and said "I bet he's Robin." The Batman line about the mask sealed the deal.  To me, it got more and more obvious that this is where Nolan was heading as the movie went on.  As a matter of fact, I'll take back a portion of my original statement because there was STILL some surprise from those in the theater when Blake's name was revealed to be Robin.  There was applause.  So I guess not everyone saw it coming. 
So you're gonna backtrack and change your whole point? It's the end of the series. You don't spend time on new tangents at the end for nothing unless you're a **** and Damon Lindelof.

One of my personal issues with TDKR, is that there was no real tension in the film, considering how by obvious the plot was. He's saying he wished there was more to the Blake character, I can't disagree. The second you realized he'd been on screen a little too long and had a few too many lines than you'd expect, you knew there'd be a twist involving him and though it's fitting and makes sense, you can't get mad at someone holding out hope that Blake wouldn't turn out to be the most obvious thing he could be.

The way they revealed who he was and that last shot of him in the cave were both well done and JGL did a great job, but especially after him using orphan logic to figure out who Batman was and getting as much or more screen time than Alfred or Gordon, it wasn't handled that smoothly...but you're probably right. Nolan is Jesus, no room to scrutinize or nitpick.
 
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