(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

The thing is people DID complain. It's just:

A. the show wasn't as widely popular in Seasons 1-3 as it is now and

B. after 5 years of the same old OD violence people do get tired. It's like ok we get it.

I don't understand why you and others don't understand why some would be upset?

EDIT

But yes I agree the fact that it's Sansa and another horrible thing happening to a major female character plays a role in the outrage. Definitely. And rightfully so.
 
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Nako XL said:
 
I posted this in the show thread but I think it should be posted here too:

To quote Chris Ryan of grantland "the cruelty didn't feel earned."

When Joffrey or other characters do evil **** there's a build up to it - a crescendo.

We don't get much of Ramsey other than his interactions with Theon and other women. We don't know anything about his childhood or life. Until this season we never saw him except when he was torturing Theon.

The only real build up we got this year was the implication that Sansa was now a strong determined character who wasn't going to take **** from anyone and was going to fight her way back into her rightful seat as queen of the north.

Then over the past two episodes they rushed through a pseudo-origin story for Ramsey " your mom got raped on her wedding day" almost as a wink wink, guess what's going to happen, and then tore Sansa's character back down.

That's largely why myself and tv show critics are irked. There's a way to show biolence on television and have it be a useful part of the story.

When Joffrey did evil ****, it made sense because we watched him grow from a mischievous child lying and torturing animals into a psychopathic young adult with real power. We don't get that from Ramsey. There's no character arc.

He's existed solely as a psychopathic character who they plug and play whenever they need quick shock value. And it's lazy. Oh, look another rape. Shock! Gasp! It's tired already. Give him depth. have him creep us out with words or in another way. Not this lazy *** writing where whenever you want us to dislike a character you have him do something horrible to a woman or innocent child. Rape has been used over and over again in this show that it's predictable. We always see it coming. Who didn't know he was gonna assault her on their wedding night? It's what the show does. But that doesn't mean we should just shrug and grin like oh that wacky show and their weddings. It's trite now.

That's why I'M like "eww" with that scene. I can only speak for myself, though.
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Fair points.

This is an opinion that I can respect over some of the fake outrage. 

Some things to keep in mind though Joeffery was introduced as a child so we as viewers got to see him sort of grow into his evil. Ramsey is already an adult, so he's already come into his evil when he's introduced. What I think the show is trying to do is continuing the evil that we saw in Jeoff into Ramsey. Almost as if Ramsey is what Joeff would have ended up like in terms of becoming a psychopath if that makes sense. The show doesn't have time to build up evil with each villain that's introduced, instead they are building up evil as a whole throughout the series. I'm just trying to put my self in D&D.B's shoes to try and figure out what they are doing with the show. 
 
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Numerous people ask, “Can you talk about Sansa’s wedding?”

Many of the changes showrunners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff have made in adapting Game of Thrones from its source novels have been, from a narrative point of view, improvements. The combining of characters into composites, the outright jettisoning of other characters, the changing of plot arcs — all of those things aren’t just artful reedits made on a whim for the sake of doing them, but are necessary because of the realistic demands of producing 10 episodes of Game of Thrones a year. In the same way that George R.R. Martin had to alter the structure of Books 4 and 5 (A  Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons) because modern bookbinding techniques literally couldn’t handle the number of manuscript pages he submitted for Feast, Benioff and Weiss have to make decisions based on the logistics of a gigantic cast filming in three countries simultaneously for 200 days a year, with only one hour per episode to tell their story.

All of that is to say I was generally OK with the change of Sansa going to Winterfell to marry Ramsay when it was revealed. The somewhat convoluted book version of the arc, in which the bride is a tertiary character (the daughter of a former Stark loyalist) who is forced to pretend to be Arya, is great but just too unwieldy for television. The show’s version also had the plus of providing more emotional stakes — obviously! — for the characters, the story, and the viewers. Theon now has a real opportunity for redemption. Or he could possibly sink to heretofore unplumbed depths of debased subservience and shame. Sansa moves to the center of the story rather than being shunted aside doing this and that in the Vale, where nothing much but politicking and the manipulation of grain prices is going on. Any book reader — or even show watcher — understood the danger for Sansa and knew full well where her relationship with Ramsay logically would go. I expected what happened to be awful. What I didn’t expect was the seemingly slapdash and unthinking way that the show arrived at that place.

In an interview with Entertainment Weekly, producer Bryan Cogman was asked, “How could you do this to Sansa?” He said: “This isn’t a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland. Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show. It’s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it.” To which I say: Mmmmm, nah.

What’s worse than portraying a sexual assault? Not knowing that you are. “A hardened woman making a choice” is a statement that seems to fundamentally misunderstand what the show has been portraying over the last few seasons. Sansa depends on Littlefinger for her safety, indeed for her survival. Sure, she doesn’t believe in princes and fairy tales anymore. But “a hardened woman”? She has no means to fend for herself and is, along with Tyrion, one of the most wanted persons in the realm. At every point along the way, the choices Sansa has made to cope with her increasingly dire situation have been the equivalent of a prisoner decorating her cell. She’s “decided” to play along because all the other options likely end with her head on a spike. Could she have sold Petyr Baelish out to the nobles of the Vale? Sure, but putting herself in the care of yet more strangers could easily lead to her death. Could she have refused to go to Winterfell to wed Ramsay? Well, she actually did several times. Until Littlefinger convinced her. But let’s not pretend that Littlefinger and Sansa enjoy a relationship of equal footing. Also, he couldn’t have left her a few bodyguards?

As for why Littlefinger would allow Sansa to fall into the clutches of the Boltons and the serial rapist and murderer Ramsay, Cogman said: “The difference between the Ramsay Snow of the books and the show is the Ramsay of the show is not a famous psycho. He’s not known everywhere as a psycho. So Littlefinger doesn’t have the intelligence on him.” Yeah, no. That flies about as well as a dead raven.

Let’s put aside the fact that Ramsay recently had the flayed bodies of Lord and Lady Cerwyn hanging for all to see in the yard at Winterfell, and that he keeps Theon Greyjoy, only the last living son of the Lord of the Iron Islands — and thus one of the most (in)famous persons in the realm, certainly among the top three most recognizable faces in the North — as his mutilated thrall. And that the Bolton House sigil is a ******* flayed man. And that the Boltons betrayed the Starks. Knowing what we know about Littlefinger, based on, oh, four seasons of fairly calculated Machiavellian string-pulling — he was behind the downfall of Jon Arryn, he played Ned Stark like a violin, he facilitated the Purple Wedding, and he seized control of the Vale with a simple push — there is approximately zero percent chance he would broker a marriage deal with the Boltons without doing his due diligence on them. That would not ever happen. This guy is supposed to be the mastermind-behind-the-guy-behind-the-guy. Baelish taking a calculated risk with Sansa’s safety as part of a larger plot would at least make sense. Sansa getting raped because Littlefinger was flat-out lazy and inept doesn’t earn the brutal shock of the scene.

Considering the justified uproar over Cersei and Jamie in the Sept last season, the way the production handled this is troubling in that it suggests they’ve learned nothing at all.

Rant over.
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I responded again NAKO

just letting you know it's nothing personal with you, again just how I feel.
and im not discrediting the act
 
I disagree with the belief that it was rushed.

Throughout the series they talk about bastard's are evil and dishonorable. It's why Jon Snow gets slander from day one, why all of Robert's bastards get done in, etc. Ramsay is the one bastard that actually fits into the generally held beliefs about bastards. But we've also been seeing how evil Roose Bolton is, and Ramsay has been crazy since he showed up on screen. There is plenty of build up to the act.
 
Tdogg2k said:
I responded again NAKO

just letting you know it's nothing personal with you, again just how I feel.
and im not discrediting the act
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:lol: I don't take anything on NT personally and you're an anime/manga thread homie. It's all good. I'm sneaking replies in at work so they're gonna be sporadic.
 
“The difference between the Ramsay Snow of the books and the show is the Ramsay of the show is not a famous psycho. He’s not known everywhere as a psycho. So Littlefinger doesn’t have the intelligence on him.”
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WHAT?!?!?!

You expect me to buy that mother ******* Littlefinger doesn't know everything about the Boltons? He didn't do his homework after they murdered the love of his life, Caitlin Stark? **** with this bull ****.

That's more infuriating than them saying "Sansa was a hardened woman making a choice".
 
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Yea I seriously doubt that someone as meticulous as Littlefinger would offer an alliance with someone without doing his homework on them first :lol:
 
That's where the show runners F'd up by diverging from source material(among other things). Little Finger is to complex and calculated of a character created by GRRM to try and do your own thing with. They are creating plot holes that will only grow larger as the show continues. 

Speaking of plot holes, how the hell are they gonna make the Bolton's aware of Bran and Rickon, send Locke to kill them, he never returns and they just don't mention it every again? 
 
I totally forgot about Locke getting Mountain smashed by Hodor/Bran :rofl:. Did they seriously never follow up on that with the Boltons? Didn't even realize :lol:
 
No they didn't 
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.

They Stark children was their greatest threat in the North before Stannis and they just gave up looking for them.

I bet during the Stannis vs Bolton battle Reek tells Sansa the truth, she tells Stannis after they escape and Stannis sends Davos to find Rickon.(Janye Poole story merge)

Or 

The "friends" in the north the old lady was talking about could be the Umbers....potential Sansa Rickon reunion 
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that may require her to die....
NOW THAT would be a hell of a twist to do.

the whole rape vs not rape again is a sensitive thing because people who are saying not rape think of rape to be snuff film type stuff, bondage, screaming hitting.
They don't understand that circle is much bigger than that.
 
did you guys see the IMDB cast list for ep 10?

a white walker and Benjen..............................

cold hands???
 
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I've got an interesting theory I was thinking about today when watching the Loras trial scene again.

We all know in the books that Loras wasn't REALLY injured at Dragonstone and that was BS fed to Cersei. So with the show focusing on Loras as the accused in the Kings Landing storyline I thought it was just because it was an easy out since he's been an established homosexual, which goes against the Faith. But what if they're setting up a showdown between Loras and Robert Strong?

What if that's what it was always going to lead up to and that the Clegane Bowl was just a pipe dream we all wished we could get?

In the show, it's possible that Loras accepts his punishment. However, just like Cersei does in the books he asks for a trial by combat rather than rotting away in a cell or getting castrated or whatever they're going to do. It would make sense once the script flips (which we know is coming), that when Cersi asks for her trial by combat that the High Sparrow leaves it up to the gods to determine which house deserves absolution from their crimes. This would pit House Tyrell and Lanniser in a single combat duel to the death to determine the future of both houses survival with Loras up against Robert Strong.

We know in the books that Margery wants a normal trial rather than a trial by combat. Right now she's chilling with Randall Tarly until the trial is set to happen. So it's possible (this is a big what if) that she gets word that Loras is unharmed and fine after taking Dragonstone and she changes her mind once he returns. Thus, leading to the Faith saying eff it and having Loras and Strong duke it out in the books to settle things.
 
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how do we know that he wasntt??



and i dont think you can Trial by combat with the faith...
 
Another not bad episode. Dany is still unbearable.
Sansa still losing. (good)

sam the yamb slayer

Were we suppose to be getting cersei's scene this season.. ? like is she going to do it?, ive been waiting to see lena naked again since 300

so not bad.
I wonder if they plan on letting sam go to olde town.

and why did they give bronn the antidote
 
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