(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

[harlemtothebronx]

It was rape..

Watch the Cercei/Jaime sex scene next to Joffrey’s corpse. That's rape.

Funny thing is that wasn't intended to come off as rape...that scene was almost as cringeworthy for me. The fact that the camera was set on Theon and all you had was the sound and your imagination made it worse for some people, I think.

 

[nako xl]

It was rape..

Watch the Cercei/Jaime sex scene next to Joffrey’s corpse. That's rape.

I mean I'm not gonna wade into the murky waters of debating the definition of rape with you in here, but I'll leave it at this. If someone consents to have sex with you and then you change the terms of that agreement by oh say forcing her to do so while another man is in the room watching, then that's rape.

"Rough sex" as you guys keep calling it is also sexual assault if someone doesn't consent to what you're doing to them. No we never hear her say "no stop" and that was by the show writers very intentional writing, but we also never hear her verbally consent.

She never said "yes Ramsey I want to sleep with you tonight." He commanded her to strip naked and get on the bed. He even said "don't make me ask twice. I hate to ask twice."

It'd be kind foolish to say he didn't intimidate her into anything and she was down with and consented to everything that happened in that scene.

 

[nako xl]

And one last thing, you can talk about how things were "back then" (in a fictional universe with no real time delineation to speak of) but we live in 2015. Just cuz sexual abuse may have been more common back then doesn't mean we gotta just shrug and say medieval times were craaazy and not be grossed out by it.

You didn't watch 12 years a slave and go "don't be upset that was then. People kidnapped and tortured black folks all the time. It was legal."

It's still ok to be upset by portrayals of it and it's their right to stop watching. Not like the writers can argue they're just following the source material anymore.

This is the third rape of a main female character that they've written that wasn't in the books. The sad prt is people keep blaming GRRM for it.

Even GRRM didn't write a scene where a character who's been physically abused for two books watches his little sister (basically) get sexually abused in front of him.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

Well put.

 

[tdogg2k]

Watch the Cercei/Jaime sex scene next to Joffrey’s corpse. That's rape.

That wasnt intended as rape (as soneone said.)

Again they were married. That was his wife in that age thats what was expected and she knew that. She knew that with tyrion she didnt want to with him but if she had to that was her duty. Just like with ramsay its her duty.
We dont have to like it now as 2015 in the present. But thats what people need to seperate. Werenot talking about 2015. Were talking purely about this age to which GOT is set. Plenty of unwanted marriages... by your definition every time cersi got in bed with robert he was raping her. She didnt particularly want it but she didnt stop it because it was her duty
Thats the problem with twitter crusaders we cant put our 2015 morals in a shownof this period and time and scream they shouldnt write it that way.... thats how stuff went down for this age. Ok you dont like it but theyre not going to rewrite something because our morals today dont agree

 

[nako xl]

i think you're missing the point. It wasn't her duty to do anything while Theon was in the room. EVEN Roose Bolton scorched Ramsey that he was making a fool of himself by taunting Sansa with Reek.

Ramsey wanted to humiliate her. It wasn't "now we're married and I want to consummate it." He was trying to kill her character psychologically and emotionally. Any other person in the GoT world would agree what he did was ****** up. Medieval times or not.

I don't get why you keep trying to claim "that's how it was." Nah. No one else was doing the kind of **** Ramsey does (except maybe the mountain and his men - largely considered the most despicable character in the game of thrones universe. Before the introduction of Ramsey Snow that is...)

 

[shogun]

Anybody else feel this show will be remade years from now when the book series is done?

Not for a long time, if ever. Great, epic shows like this don't really get a remake. Plus the budget for this kind of show is crazy. Not many networks could afford it. Maybe a channel like BBC with partnerships with other networks.

 

[Barbados Slim]

Poor guy 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

 

[hybridsoldier23]

I don't know how anyone can say she wasn't raped. Especially when you involve Theon/Reek being in the room. There was 0 hint of consent in that scene. She was forcibly taken against her will. Obviously she wasn't down with anything that transpired so it was rape. I'm really unsure why we needed to see that and why it couldn't have been done through dialogue exposition the next episode with Sansa and Reek distraught. Something as simple as ending with with Reek shutting and locking the door would have sufficed. I don't think we needed any more visual reason to hate Ramsay.

I get it was supposed to be disturbing but I felt like it was used as a tool for shock value rather than adding anything of substance to the characters that we don't already know.

 

[IATT]

a lot of things are feeling forced this season.. instead of happening organically, it feels like it's being done for a TV show to get certain characters together






like the whole sand snakes vs Jaime and bronn scene.. like they all just show up at once.. and the couple who we had only seen twice in the show and both times they make a point to show them being watched and guarded

but somehow that whole scene takes place before the guards get there.. would have maybe made more sense if Jaime and bronn get there and the guards are distracted while dealing with them.. and that allows the sand snakes to attack his daughter (since their only desire is to start war)

 

[Barbados Slim]

What do you guys think they are going to do with Edmure and Black Fish?

Both are still alive in the show and books.

 

[KingParappa]

Poor guy 
http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

He's right about the Dresden fans. That show is nothing like the books.

 

[biggie62]

Yea, as a whole I think it's a good adaptation. They have to deviate and condense a lot of info to fit the time of the show. Books 4 and 5 were boring so some of the changes brings some of the shock value that people demand and now expect from the show.

 

[IATT]

 

[tdogg2k]

So do people not want to see what was written???? Or are people just pissed because it was sansa.....because in that case...
I would say a baby getting stabbed and mom murdered from it was worst then sansa being shown thrown on the bed and theon crying...
If thats the case lets cut out every death... because its gruesome and i cant stand to watch....


Yall forget. What happened to theon in the show was never shown or described in the book.
We started reading a page and found out dude was missing fingers toes a penis and was flayed.... (gruesome )

But in the show we see what happens to him in real time....brutal and gruesome..cut flayed toyed with..broken down as a man...a human being...
no one batted an eye...
Some felt it was bad...but others said good he deserved it....

Rape is serious and majorly happens to women....but is what happened to theon nothing compared to it?????

 

[hybridsoldier23]

We needed to see what happened with Theon when being tortured to empathize with him. We've already seen enough terrible **** happen to both Theon and Sansa at this point which is why I feel that scene could have been directed a lot better. Obviously Ramsay is going to consummate the marriage, it makes sense in the story and in "the real world". My issue is that they killed Sansa's arc by making her start to become a player in the game and turning around and making her into a meek victim again. It's poor writing. If they wanted to go with her brushing up and getting confident and becoming a player then they should have had it come out of her defilement. She could have taken on the entire Stone Heart moniker after her innocence was destroyed by Ramsay.

 

[tdogg2k]

So people are mad she was finally getting stronger to get brought back down.....
Do you guys not think this scene will be made to really give her the one up to do something??

 

[nako xl]

I don't know. But if Benioff and Weiss are giving her Jeyne's storyline we all know how that went. She didn't get any one up's from that.

 

[Trey Bantz]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...how_n_7269640.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024

kjsbnxkwq

Damb...pretty disappointing they won't be adding the Young Griff/Aegon plot line to the show. Do you guys agree with this article and think this confirms that he is an impostor?

So no one answered my question, does anyone have insight into this?

 

[hybridsoldier23]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...how_n_7269640.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024

kjsbnxkwq

Damb...pretty disappointing they won't be adding the Young Griff/Aegon plot line to the show. Do you guys agree with this article and think this confirms that he is an impostor?

So no one answered my question, does anyone have insight into this?

Yes, he's an impostor. He's a Blackfyre. And I don't think they will use him in the show unless Vary's shows up at out nowhere with him.

 

[rolaholic]

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...how_n_7269640.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024

kjsbnxkwq

Damb...pretty disappointing they won't be adding the Young Griff/Aegon plot line to the show. Do you guys agree with this article and think this confirms that he is an impostor?

So no one answered my question, does anyone have insight into this?

Yes, he's an impostor. He's a Blackfyre. And I don't think they will use him in the show unless Vary's shows up at out nowhere with him.

Now that would be an awesome way to end the season 

 

 

[nako xl]

I posted this in the show thread but I think it should be posted here too:

To quote Chris Ryan of grantland "the cruelty didn't feel earned."

When Joffrey or other characters do evil **** there's a build up to it - a crescendo.

We don't get much of Ramsey other than his interactions with Theon and other women. We don't know anything about his childhood or life. Until this season we never saw him except when he was torturing Theon.

The only real build up we got this year was the implication that Sansa was now a strong determined character who wasn't going to take **** from anyone and was going to fight her way back into her rightful seat as queen of the north.

Then over the past two episodes they rushed through a pseudo-origin story for Ramsey " your mom got raped on her wedding day" almost as a wink wink, guess what's going to happen, and then tore Sansa's character back down.

That's largely why myself and tv show critics are irked. There's a way to show biolence on television and have it be a useful part of the story.

When Joffrey did evil ****, it made sense because we watched him grow from a mischievous child lying and torturing animals into a psychopathic young adult with real power. We don't get that from Ramsey. There's no character arc.

He's existed solely as a psychopathic character who they plug and play whenever they need quick shock value. And it's lazy. Oh, look another rape. Shock! Gasp! It's tired already. Give him depth. have him creep us out with words or in another way. Not this lazy *** writing where whenever you want us to dislike a character you have him do something horrible to a woman or innocent child. Rape has been used over and over again in this show that it's predictable. We always see it coming. Who didn't know he was gonna assault her on their wedding night? It's what the show does. But that doesn't mean we should just shrug and grin like oh that wacky show and their weddings. It's trite now.

That's why I'M like "eww" with that scene. I can only speak for myself, though.

 

[dwileykyot]

I'm personally tired of everyone complaining about a storyline because it didn't play out the way they wanted it to.

The entitlement of some of the critics has been ridiculous.

Is rape terrible... Yes of course it's terrible.

But game of thrones is a series of awful events tied together with some dialogue. To say the writing is lazy because a character you like got abused is absurd. What show have you been watching for 4 years.

All because the country in general is ultra sensitive about rape right now, there's been this huge uproar. I'll be glad when everyone simmers down on being offended about everything. After its all said and done it's only a TV show. The show runners etc should be happy they have a passionate fan base but I hope they never buckle to public pressure. That kills shows

 

[tdogg2k]

I replied to that Nako. Im 2 post under yours if you want to read it.
Nothing personal against you though. Just 2 different opinions...

I will say this...the fact the show ended with it is what the big crap storm is about also....imagine if that was early on in the show and they covered it with other scenes...it wouldn't be as big as it is right now. (Notice I didnt say as big of a deal...because i do realize Rape is sensitive.)
But again weve had 5 seasons now of seeing some form of rape or perversion. None has gotten the storm this has...
1. Because its sansa...
2. Because it is how the show ended...


Youre not about to sit and tell me though. This was worst than an innoncent mom to be getting her 7 month baby bump stabbed to death....
But what was the focus though on that ep.....robb dying and his mom getting her throat cut....no one claimed the whole women losing when that happened (well they did but not like this. ) the act of what happened to talisa was a bit more devastating than sansa. (And were talking in that time frame not modern day)

 

[rolaholic]

The show has definitely had some crueler moments like Cersei's infanticide of Robert's bastards but nothing like watching a character you've seen grow and come like to like just getting violated the way she did and the focus on Theon's facial expressions and the silent credits really drove home the heaviness of the scene.