(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

[pitman13]

It's looking more and more that way, yes. But I still want actual confirmation. No one but Brienne has seen him dead. Everyone else is like "Wait, what? I thought YOU killed him? You mean you didn't see what happened either?"

At least when Brienne "killed" the Hound, Arya went down to check the body.

Not only did we see Brienne swing her sword at his face but it was confirmed by the creators of the show in June of 2015!

But you wanted to create an imaginary scenerio where Stannis lives. Why ?

 

Bottom line is that dude is dead, though. I think we can all (other than Tdogg) agree.  

tdogg2k needs professional help

 

[nako xl]

^ you need to chill. The creators also confirmed Jon is dead. The actor confirmed Jon is dead. We also don't see her swing "at his face" we watch her swing. We dont see what she's aiming for or what she hits.

We're just speculating and debating. Chill with the snark.

 

[tdogg2k]

pitman13 because it's ok to come in here theorizing about stuff that isn't confirmed (or exactly true)
but it's not ok for me to do it???


as Nako said, so wildly accepted jon coming back after the same conditions as Stannis where the creators said it, actor said it, , that's ok to say and speculate, but we say Stannis isn't dead and its farfetched.....
yea chill with that.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

You can't really think Stannis and Jon are a valid comparison, right?

Unless GRRM flips the script on us, I can't see an epic redemption arc for Stannis. Dude has zero charisma. Speaking on a pure TV level, I can't see him having a hero arc.

I think if we do see him again, it'll be as a Wight or White Walker. That honestly makes the most sense to me with all the breadcrumbs the writers and editors have seemed to drop along the way.

 

[tdogg2k]

You can't really think Stannis and Jon are a valid comparison, right?

Unless GRRM flips the script on us, I can't see an epic redemption arc for Stannis. Dude has zero charisma. Speaking on a pure TV level, I can't see him having a hero arc.

this is sort of a contradictory sentence seeing as GRRM hasn't had any control/overseeing to the show since season 5.

it's not that its comparable per say. but the information we have for both is that they're both dead. yet it's acceptable to theorize jon coming back but not Stannis..

You have people talking about jon coming back as a white walker, jon coming back and doing what exactly???
he wouldn't come back to lead the nights watch anymore.
it wouldn't make sense to make him a white walker
He doesn't want the iron throne so him coming back to unite with Dany is just as farfetched and not part of the book story (show story who even freaking knows anymore)
He may want winterfell but Sansa is still alive and it looks like thats the way both Grrm and D&D are going with that story line

so with that being you can say the same thing about Jon, What more do you expect him to do..

Only thing that would make sense (and remember jon in the book doesn't know the white walker threat nearly as well as show jon)
is come back and be the general/main soldier for Bran against the threat.

But then you'd have to allign their stories somehow since it never seemed like they were as close as Arya and Jon.


If Stannis hasn't died yet, again there is still power in the Baratheon name alone. he can still unify the north against the lannister. he has a lot of uses still. Davos in the book is trying to get people rallied to him.
in the show he doesn't seem to have much supporters but that story line is still untapped

 

[harlemtothebronx]

this is sort of a contradictory sentence seeing as GRRM hasn't had any control/overseeing to the show since season 5.

I'm of the belief that both the books and shows are heading to the same destination, just on different paths. The show has to take some shortcuts here and there, but I think George will ultimately decide what happens to the most important characters on the show.

I think Jon just has way more going for him story wise. He's a main character. He has been since episode one. Stannis isn't paraded on HBO ads, so I can't help but think that Jon is so much more important to the story than Stannis. Jon is a Stark. Some could argue that the Starks are the main characters in the story and who we should be rooting for.

Too much, in the books and in HBO's promotion of the show since the first season points to Jon being one of the two main characters in the show (the other IMO being Dany).

Which brings me to this point:

He doesn't want the iron throne so him coming back to unite with Dany is just as farfetched and not part of the book story (show story who even freaking knows anymore)

I hate this theory so much, man. It's so damn fairy tale and I would hold that against GRRM until the day I die if he does something like that.

But I think Jon just has much more to do. He's deeply tied to so many different storylines. The Lannisters, The Wall, The Red Witch, The Boltons, Winterfell, The Night's King.

Too much has happened, and we've seen too much hero questing from Jon for him to just die and to be done with it. If he doesn't come back, what was the point of going against the books and actually sending Jon to Hardhome and give him a moment with the Night's King. You could say it was a hint of what's to come, but why Jon?

I cant shake the feeling that Jon still has some unfinished business with the White Walkers and all of the other storylines he died in the middle of.

 

[tdogg2k]

I mean i think they had the same goal initially but i feel like GRRM's story is not going to be what the show only people want to happen. and I think D&D are going to cater their version to the Show only people
Hence:
no lady stone heart and Pod about to get hung and Brienne about to deceive Jamie and possibly die.
Passing on the whole story of Dorne and how drawn out it can be
No jon Connington and his story.
Rushing Tyrions story and adding Vary's
not doing Sansas true story
or Osha/Asha coming to see Theon
All Tywin interactions
All Lady Olena interactions

Just the minor/major stuff i feel is what separates TV from Book and why i think they will have separate conclusions. I dont think TV only watchers would be able to handle all that stuff ( they can barely handle what's given to them now. as far as following along)
It's like I said Monday after the show. if I was a show only watcher there was a few things in there Where i was scratching my head thinking to myself how did they get to this point. me knowing the story i was able to fill in the gaps which I think D&D have been doing since season 2 honestly assuming half the fans either have read or go online to fill in gaps. (which imo is lazy on their part)

This is why I think for a TV show it will come to a different conclusions. not so much rainbows, flowers and butterflys but something people can end and feel decent about.
compared to the book, GRRM is more than likely going to rip our hearts out but with a satisfying and fulfilling ending.



and FYI:
let me just throw out there I'm not Against Jon coming back.. I just don't think he should. If he comes back he comes back im not going scoff at reading/watching him.
hell GRRM himself said if he can go back he would've never had lady stoneheart come back.
I think his story can pass on to the hearts of the wildlings/ bran/ nights watch and they still do things in his name and style.


Yes Jon has been a main staple of the book and show. but to be fair show people thought Robb was a main character also... a lot of people didn't/don't realize its actually the story being told through Caitlyns eyes for Robb.

I think peoples story can come to an end. and for what we know about Grrm, he's not afraid to kill anyone. but there is purpose and butterfly effects to everything happening.

 

[District of Columbia]

I'm of the belief that both the books and shows are heading to the same destination, just on different paths. The show has to take some shortcuts here and there, but I think George will ultimately decide what happens to the most important characters on the show.

I think Jon just has way more going for him story wise. He's a main character. He has been since episode one. Stannis isn't paraded on HBO ads, so I can't help but think that Jon is so much more important to the story than Stannis. Jon is a Stark. Some could argue that the Starks are the main characters in the story and who we should be rooting for.

Too much, in the books and in HBO's promotion of the show since the first season points to Jon being one of the two main characters in the show (the other IMO being Dany).

Which brings me to this point:


I hate this theory so much, man. It's so damn fairy tale and I would hold that against GRRM until the day I die if he does something like that.:x

But I think Jon just has much more to do. He's deeply tied to so many different storylines. The Lannisters, The Wall, The Red Witch, The Boltons, Winterfell, The Night's King.

Too much has happened, and we've seen too much hero questing from Jon for him to just die and to be done with it. If he doesn't come back, what was the point of going against the books and actually sending Jon to Hardhome and give him a moment with the Night's King. You could say it was a hint of what's to come, but why Jon?

I cant shake the feeling that Jon still has some unfinished business with the White Walkers and all of the other storylines he died in the middle of.

Perfect breakdown. Repped

 

[nako xl]

I agree that Jon is dead but will come back. (It'd be jokes though if he only comes back in flashbacks and show/book fans worldwide lose their ****.)

I agree that it would make perfect sense for Stannis to be dead. I also agree that it would make perfect sense for him to still be alive. I also agree that it is obvious the show runners (and GRRM) want us to be confused as to this point. IMO that is why they didn't show his death. Because GRRM did not show it in the book. But GRRM didn't show it because most book readers assume Ramsay lied about him being dead. Go rewatch the scene from the show. It looks like Ramsay is lying. Both Stannis endings are left ambiguous and I'm ok with that.

Which takes me to my next point. I didn't compare the two because I think they're the same. But more so because certain posters (ahem @Pitman13) keep taking personal shots at @Tdogg2k and considering how plausible what he's saying is I think it's unfair and a little uncalled for. No need to call a dude crazy or imply he's dumb for having an opinion that is currently as correct as yours.

That said, r+l=j, bro.

 

[KingParappa]

Speaking of Ramsay lying, time to bring this back up

 

[harlemtothebronx]

This is such a tough topic, because I really don't disagree with anything you said @Tdogg2k
.

I guess it kind of comes down to if you think D&D are going to deviate from the books and how much. I do agree that they have avoided a lot of the harsher moments, so I could definitely see them going a somewhat different route with the ending and giving show watchers something much more palatable than the pain and nightmares that the books have given me over the last 5 year.  

Most show only people I know are praying for that storybook ending, so I could definitely see it happening.:x

GRRM is more than likely going to rip our hearts out but with a satisfying and fulfilling ending.

I cannot wait.

I said it when I was reading it and I stand by it now. Mance Rayder wrote the Pink Letter.

 

[nako xl]

^ why?

 

[harlemtothebronx]

I thought he just has the most motivation to write it. I don't believe that he was captured. I basically have a hard time believing anything that supposed to be presumed to have happened off page. The letter gives too many details on Mance and he spear wives.

But after watching that video. I moreso feel like Stannis is most likely to have written it. He needed Jon's help the most and knew what would get him to come to Winterfell: his family. On top of that, he knew all about the Red Witch glamouring Mance. That video just made it harder for me to figure out who wrote the letter honestly.

 

[tdogg2k]

That video was crazy confusing.

What would make a little more sense is if mance and melisandre kinda conspired this together if you put both of that videos theories together.

It would also make sense if mel and mance could communicate via the red stone

 

[harlemtothebronx]

That video was crazy confusing.

What would make a little more sense is if mance and melisandre kinda conspired this together if you put both of that videos theories together.

It would also make sense if mel and mance could communicate via the red stone

 

[tdogg2k]

Finally not chastized for a theory of mine...
I dont know how to feel

happy or sad

 

[harlemtothebronx]

 

[KingParappa]

I mean that is a good one.

 

[KingParappa]

I need my favorite Bronn moment to appear in the show but I highly doubt it happens with everything else going on


Lady Tanda Stokeworth informs Cersei Lannister that Bronn names his wife Lollys's bastard son Tyrion, in dubious honor of his former employer. Such a troll move.

 

[tdogg2k]

That already happened. Before they went to dorne

 

[KingParappa]

That already happened. Before they went to dorne

That happened in the show? I thought they just got married and Jaime came to ask him to come to Dorne.

 

[tdogg2k]

That happened in the show? I thought they just got married and Jaime came to ask him to come to Dorne.

iirc. Waaaiiit... Yea cersi never found out but brons told jamie the girl was pregnant and he was naming the child tyrion. And Jamie was like. Don't let cersi find out. Don't quote me. Season 5 is the only season I didn't watch multiple times

 

[nako xl]

Your boy back

 

[KingParappa]

Man... I need this book now. I need to build a time machine. I'll bring copies for the team

 

[District of Columbia]

R+L pretty much fact at this point