QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[CP1708]

killer instinct.

He's not Michael Myers guys.

So if he loses to Mahomes, he doesn't have a killer instinct? Did he not use his killer instinct vs the Titans last year? His killer instinct made Dee Ford line up offsides? His killer instinct made that safety drop the Interception, so he could throw a TD two plays later? What a killer.

C'mon. Come. On.

 

[DeadsetAce]

^ i mean that's what i was referring to when i said, some guys make you pay for mistakes (dee ford's mistake or a dropped INT, for example) and other don't

over 5 seasons, yeah i get it. whatever. over 20 years? there's something there

 

[elpablo21]

Rodgers was getting In guy's faces. The narrative is only different cause they lost

Like I mentioned Elway, he was a "loser" until he wasn't. His mentality and aura didn't change, the surrounding circumstances did.

 

[elpablo21]

And why do we keep talking about as if Rodgers hasn't won anyways? How many do we have in the all time top that have a plethora of rings?

Did Peyton underachieve cause he only won two? Marino is bare minimum top 5 for most and has zero, was his mentality not enough

 

[651akathepaul]

Killer instinct is definitely a thing in my opinion, whether you label it that or hyper focus...whatever. If you don't see it, fine.

It's not a comic book...it doesn't make you invincible or mistake proof.

Its just another point made as to why he's probably the best ever and in the NFL, these things matter when you sepeperate the goats from the others.

When you talk strictly QBs...none of that other stuff defines the player. You're clearly devaluing the QB position, but I can't control any of that. No one argues against it being the ultimate team game, so this all sounds silly at this point.

 

[651akathepaul]

Rodgers was getting In guy's faces. The narrative is only different cause they lost

Not at all. Rodgers comes off different. Seen it too many times. He'll make hand gestures and **** here and there, but then he'll chill out on the sideline.

I don't remember Elway labeled as a loser, but I was young back then. It felt more like a great that needs to win the big one...also no social media back then though too.

 

[queencity45]

fully agree that it was a stupid decision and it was LaFleur's call. but i've been waiting to talk more about this. did Aaron have a say in that? should he? why doesn't he? i really want insight into that

i know Brady/Peyton have had the say in those situations


also...i thought he could have ran it in easy on 3rd down for a TD. thought that was a missed oppy on his part. but that might be nitpicking

I specifically came in here to ask these exact questions about Rogers not having a say so in these situations. He is too much of a veteran and too good to not have a say so. Do you guys think this is on him for not having a say-so? When Lefleur became the head coach was/is this not something that should have been brought up for these situations? Aaron seems like such a laid back dude that just goes out to play his best but wonder if he’s the one needing to be more demanding.

 

[651akathepaul]

Did Peyton underachieve cause he only won two? Marino is bare minimum top 5 for most and has zero, was his mentality not enough

I would say Manning underachieved most definitely. I jumped into the middle of y'all, but I was talking about Brady mostly, then a small juxtaposition to Rodgers in terms of intangibles only.

I've said before, I like putting greats in their own categories...overall, talent, run, dual, etc. I just don't get why people can't put the Brady hate aside a minute and say, wait a minute...9 SB appearances? 6 rings...SIX! All-time records? What's better than that? And no one says he's perfect, but when you talk about his postseason resume, he's pulled through way more than anyone else and just being continually in that position needs to count for something...or I guess it doesn't, but I dont get why it wouldn't. Just seems more effort is put into finding ways to discount him than appreciate.

 

[elpablo21]

Not at all. Rodgers comes off different. Seen it too many times. He'll make hand gestures and **** here and there, but then he'll chill out on the sideline.

I don't remember Elway labeled as a loser, but I was young back then. It felt more like a great that needs to win the big one...also no social media back then though too.

I'm going off my own memory but it never felt Elway was revered in the same way Marino was by the media

but yeah with no social media, hyperbolic hot take debate all these things are spoken of differently.

Let Rodgers and Marino switch timelines and ppl would be dragging Dan left and right on here. His "greatest season in the history of the game" would be used as a slight against him since he never finished the job

 

[elpablo21]

I would say Manning underachieved most definitely. I jumped into the middle of y'all, but I was talking about Brady mostly, then a small juxtaposition to Rodgers in terms of intangibles only.

I've said before, I like putting greats in their own categories...overall, talent, run, dual, etc. I just don't get why people can't put the Brady hate aside a minute and say, wait a minute...9 SB appearances? 6 rings...SIX! All-time records? What's better than that? And no one says he's perfect, but when you talk about his postseason resume, he's pulled through way more than anyone else and just being continually in that position needs to count for something...or I guess it doesn't, but I dont get why it wouldn't. Just seems more effort is put into finding ways to discount him than appreciate.

I see both sides of it. I've said it plenty of times even when Tom played like crap, he made the plays. He is deserving of what he's accomplished. Super Bowl 49, a run changes everything but he came back down 10 for that to even happened, He was a part of that. I have my fun with Tom telling him to **** off but I respect the catalog for sure.

I do think you have to have a mentality to reach a next level and reach it multiple times but I also agree there alot of variances that can happen in a game/season/career that can make that "mentality" null and void. There's only two guys we can say that has had the benefit of both aspects that many times, Tom and Joe. It's not to take anything away from their own abilities and what they controlled within their own hands because at the end of the day they played their part in it.

If Aaron wins another or two before retiring I just can't say something finally clicked with him mentally for it to have happened, maybe something does change but I'll put my money on the surrounding landscape and opportunities having just as much of an influence on that

 

[CP1708]

651, I hope you don't mean me when you refer to Brady slander, cuz....... I've typed way too many God damn nice things about that dude, ON HERE, for you to mean me, least I hope so.

And I certainly know he has intangibles, or grit, guile, all that.......bull ****. Cuz that's what it is, bull ****. Ways for us to just make stuff up.

He just......wanted it more. Naw, that's not it, but that's what goes for analysis. I'm sure I've said it a few times, because it's just habit, honestly.

Barry Sanders didn't want it enough. Marino didn't want it. Randy Moss didn't want it.

Sorry, but no. The circumstances just aren't the same.

To bring back to QB, again, Aaron Rodgers did not control the Drafting of a QB. Seems to me, he could have really used a First Round pick on the field, somewhere. Am I crazy? GB seemed to be focused on the future of the franchise, rather than doing right by their vet QB, in 2020/21.

I said the same about the Chiefs with Mahomes, and lucky for them, it has worked out and they have hit a home run. (Grand slam, really) MAYBE, Green Bay did too. Maybe I'm dumb and Jordan Love is another 15+ years of great QB play. But I mean........Green Bay has had elite QB run now since 1992. They have 2 titles.

Rodgers has 1 title in 13 seasons.
Brees has 1 title in 19 seasons.
Favre had 1 title in 19 seasons.

3 titles in 51 seasons.

Troy Aikman had 3 titles in a 4 year span.

I guess he just wanted it more.......

 

[651akathepaul]

And I certainly know he has intangibles, or grit, guile, all that.......bull ****. Cuz that's what it is, bull ****. Ways for us to just make stuff up.

That's just completely wrong. Some folks who have difficulties quantifying something make a determination that it's meaningless, doesn't make you right. Ask 100 players if intangibles are real...100 players probably say that they are.

I don't really care about Barry or Moss in a quarterback conversation. The Q has his hands on the ball 98-100% of his offensive snaps. They have much more opportunity to make a difference on the game. It presents more opportunity to be imperfect and fail, yet, Brady has came through in numerous circumstances, numerous different teams, myriad of players...going against the grain at that point is ignorance. Where he's failed, he's had previous or subsequent success.

Brady has had less than Rodgers on offense in years past, but you seem to sacrifice that to uphold Rodgers not being inferior. You're not really making any point there because it's not like NE missed in multiple occasions in the the 1st round or traded their pick outright when they could’ve helped Brady...yet, he mostly still got it done in similar or worse circumstances. If you wanna argue it's an ultimate team game, you won't get pushback from me...but you're 100% looking at this from a Billy Beane perspective and it doesn't fit when we're strictly talking QBs.

The longer of a sample size you have, the better. I think anyone with a discernible eye can figure out why Aikman is a 3 time Champion. Brady has literally succeeded so many ways yet we're holding the team game thing against him?

If you honestly believe that a team +4 wins better in the regular season +3 in the postseason where the competition is on the next level is irrelevant on virtually the same team that was 7-9 last year, with the main difference being the QB, and that QB is the main reason why said team is now in the SB, then I don't know what to tell you. That's a WAR of at least 7...in the NFL!

 

[CP1708]

Intangibles, yes that's fine.

Grit, guile, hunger, he's a killer, all that is bs. Made up words to explain nonsense.

"Same team". Jameis did not have Gronk, Fournette, or Wirfs. They didn't just swap Jameis for Tom.

And my overall point isn't just Brady is lucky, it's way more than that. I've praised Tom for decades now. I've broken down his career a ton.

Bottom line, Aaron Rodgers played better yesterday.........and lost. The almighty "most important" position, Rodgers was flat out better yesterday, and lost.

Same as Brady was better than Eli, and lost, twice.

Circumstances.

I mean......they beat whoever the Wash QB was. Brees who couldn't throw 10 yards anymore (with Jameis ironically having to come in to throw downfield) and now gets outplayed by Rodgers and still wins.

I'd be worried if I were Mahomes, and losing your LT to boot.....

 

[CP1708]

I know dude is a troll, but unless he's completely faking the numbers........

I can, btw, verify these. I keep a game log spreadsheet of the elites, I can check the math tomorrow.

#MoreGritty #HeJustCaresMore

 

[DeadsetAce]

stats need context. always. and posting barry macgruber stats mean nothing if we're being honest. passer rating? meh. midas whale discuss QBR as well (Brady had the higher QBR yesterday btw...but i'm not hanging my stance on that ).

i'll prob get killed shortly for this take but here goes:

stats are cool and fun. they need context. when do the brain farts occur in the game? when your team is up two scores or when your team is down and chasing the game? in the red zone? in the opponents half? all of that matters. look, i'm not gonna say Tom outplayed AR yesterday. no one is gonna buy that. but i think it's more complex than "AR flat outplayed Brady and lost". team contributions aside. just focusing on the QBs...there's more there

i don't think the "he cares more" is part of it. and i get you're not a clutch/killer instinct guy, CP. and that's totally fair. so that's part of what makes this debate sort of a circular reference

i do enjoy these debates, ftr. happy to keep going or happy to move on

 

[elpablo21]

That's why I kept upping the thread. Yall been too dormant in here

 

[CP1708]

Aye, you of all people, you and Chester KNOW I been with ya. I used to CRUSH Peyton vs Brady. You know I did. I have analyzed Brady every which way.

Baby Brady, hand off and Vinateri.
Opening night Brady like 30 straight passes
WR Brady, Moss/Weller
2 TE Brady, Gronk and Grim Reaper
White receivers Brady
No more weapons Brady
Tampa Brady

I flat out get it. I'm not bumpin gums to diminish the man. Hell, his paycuts LONG been fuel to my beliefs.
Til I die, I can't explain Helmet Catch, or Butler INT, in terms of complete narrative flips.

But Rodgers is VERY similar, in the oppositeness. He can play great, and lose.
Brady gets Tuck Rule, Rodgers gets OT, other team TD first drive, game over.

It is CRAZY the breaks Rodgers DOESN'T get. Like he didn't pay off his deal with the devil or somethin.

Elway and Peyton got rings very late, maybe he still gets one again, maybe he leaves like Tom and hand picks a squad.

He lost a playoff game where Russ threw FOUR Int's AND a fumble. That's ****in absurd. Russ threw a hail Mary 2 point conversion for **** sakes.

 

[DeadsetAce]

That's why I kept upping the thread. Yall been too dormant in here

had me typing essays during conference calls and work today. i need to pass the **** out before i'm up all night in here

 

[DeadsetAce]

It is CRAZY the breaks Rodgers DOESN'T get. Like he didn't pay off his deal with the devil or somethin.

it's cause he hates his mama. gotta be it

nah, it's weird for sure, especially over the course of a long career. i wish it was my full time job, to fully go back and dissect this stuff. wouldn't pay as well but man it'd be better

 

[CP1708]

it's cause he hates his mama. gotta be it

nah, it's weird for sure, especially over a long career. i wish it was my full time job, to fully go back and dissect this stuff. wouldn't pay as well but man it'd be better

This damn thread got me keepin notebooks, spreadsheets, fact checking, DVR'ing, takin Draft week off, **** all y'all for that ish.......*


* Jus playin, I already do all that mess.

 

[elpablo21]

Who is all on the current elite spreadsheet though?

 

[CP1708]

I've posted pics in here. I will update this week. (I need to add Mahomes)

But not just "elite" I have like Flacco and Romo etc.

But I have every single game for
Peyton
Brady
Aikman
Marino
Elway
Kelly
Favre
Montana
McNabb
Luck
Russ
Warner
Rodgers
Rivers
Ben
Eli (I think)

I need to add Mahomes now that he has 3 years.

 

[air spider 777]

Peyton is my qb but he underachieved a lot when it came to the playoffs.

Colts had no excuses to not make it to the SB in 05, had no excuse to lose in 09 against the Saints.

He choked in 99 against the Titans (his second yr so I will kind of give him a pass). Threw just one TD that game.

He played like **** against the Chargers in 07 after the Colts went 13-3 and he threw 2 bad int’s and we lost 28-24. We got robbed of seeing a Colts vs 16-0 Pats AFC title game.

04 that prolific season that I say was the best I have ever seen and if Dungy let him he would have thrown 60 TD’s. We go up to NE and look like the Browns and lost 20-3.

03 plays great wild card and divisional and then go up to NE for the title game and throws 4 INTs. Still somehow the game was only 24-14.

Peyton Manning should have won 4 SB’s with the Colts. Hes my QB but the truth is the truth. He stunk it up in some of those games.

 

[lzd325]

Peyton is my qb but he underachieved a lot when it came to the playoffs.

Colts had no excuses to not make it to the SB in 05, had no excuse to lose in 09 against the Saints.

He choked in 99 against the Titans (his second yr so I will kind of give him a pass). Threw just one TD that game.

He played like **** against the Chargers in 07 after the Colts went 13-3 and he threw 2 bad int’s and we lost 28-24. We got robbed of seeing a Colts vs 16-0 Pats AFC title game.

04 that prolific season that I say was the best I have ever seen and if Dungy let him he would have thrown 60 TD’s. We go up to NE and look like the Browns and lost 20-3.

03 plays great wild card and divisional and then go up to NE for the title game and throws 4 INTs. Still somehow the game was only 24-14.

Peyton Manning should have won 4 SB’s with the Colts. Hes my QB but the truth is the truth. He stunk it up in some of those games.

Bro... Peyton was the guy that got me into the NFL and it upsets me how many times he came up small.

Both of his SB wins came on the strength of the defense. That 2006 team defense came together in the playoffs with Sanders and Booger.

Too many times I got upset at his playoff play.

07 - Billy Volek came in and beat Peyton and closed the RCA dome. New England would have cooked us anyway. I remember the regular season game that Brady and Moss won it in the 4th.
08- They lost to San Diego in Overtime and even tho that was a weaker team.. They would have won the Super Bowl that year vs Arizona.

09- There was something here that made me dislike Caldwell especially the Jets game and not going for 16-0. But that Tracey Porter pick was all on Peyton... They ran the same route with Reggie all season on crucial downs. i knew it was coming and so did Porter.

Even in Denver losing to Luck in the Divisional playoffs.

There is so many more playoff games I could go over... But yes... Manning should have around 3-4 SB wins

 

[CP1708]

Forgive me, I do not have it completely updated, yet. I still need to update Brady and Mahomes. (I usually do that during the Super Bowl week/break)

But you can basically see what I tried to do, which was create my own tracking of records and such. Pre-Internet days it was hard to find info like who had the most passing yards, TD's etc in the playoffs. You might see a graphic during a game, but hard to validate/compare. You can clearly see, I don't have Bradshaw, or Namath, etc. I'd have to REALLY dig backwards to check that.

I also just noticed I need to move Rodgers over Young now. (Total games)

In terms of looks, it's not rocket science, I just pull all the gamelogs across a couple sites and put it together in here. You see the tabs below for each QB. Then I total in the tab you see above.