QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[a55a5in11]

It's not projected. He is constantly called a top 3 QB and alot of people had him projected to be MVP with season.

 

[CP1708]

Ok? Maybe that's because people felt he would have a big season, and carry the Colts, hence MVP worthy?

Why is that a negative, or unworthy? Is that not his trajectory at some point, given his status, his position, and the history of the award?

 

[CP1708]

Yeah, 2 weeks in, Ben has looked flat out amazing, and he's getting Bell and Bryant back soon? :x

He lost opening night, but I really liked the way he was playing, again, missing two key starters. He was directing receivers mid route, has great touch on his throws, he really only made one bad throw that I remember, and that was moreso out of desperation.

And he coulda hit 500 on SF if they pushed it 60 minutes. He was COOKIN

 

[air spider 777]

As far as the Colts being projected for the Super Bowl and Luck being MVP. I said because one I love my team and two the moves made on paper seemed good but in real life isnt working.....yet. and I also figured with the oline being bad Luck will deal with it but I think it took a serious turn for the worse. Costanzo is the only one playing good (and not great like hes getting paid). Louis is horrible, Holmes is blah, Mewhort is a work in progress, and Herremans is just plain old. These guys are just not working out.They constantly get beat off the line and it seems like EVERY single play Luck is rushed. That would make even the GOAT trigger happy. Only so many times you can take a sack.

Also Peps play calling has been horrendous.

He should be fired and replaced with Chud.

So far what I have seen we are in for a long year and the offseason will be quite loud. We were 0-2 last year but we didnt look like this.

I could be and I hope I am wrong but as of now I dont see us going anywhere and Thomas may be in line for his first clean Chip.

 

[air spider 777]

Like I said I respect the hell out of Luck but the team around him just isn't good.

Poor player decisions and now for his coach to come out and publicly say that ****?

He's lucky he has a job cause of him.

No pun.

In my opinion Pags is frustrated how his hands have been tied. Grigs isnt making his job easy with doing that. Telling who to start on the line? Thats not a GM's job. And forcing a hiring on your staff (Pep) that you dont want? It does take its toll. And I really think he is fed up and just did that bc he wasnt thinking. He knows Luck is being put in a bad spot when he shouldnt be.

 

[rolaholic]

Start by firing the GM that hates defensive players

 

[a55a5in11]

If it wasn't for getting cancer that coaching job would be Arians.

 

[a55a5in11]

Ok? Maybe that's because people felt he would have a big season, and carry the Colts, hence MVP worthy?

Why is that a negative, or unworthy? Is that not his trajectory at some point, given his status, his position, and the history of the award?

Not a negative. I'm just saying he is always touted as a top 3 QB and therefor struggling against good teams shouldn't have excuses.

 

[rolaholic]

It's his 4th year and he's been touted as an MVP candidate by most,he's gonna have to be judged by a certain standard moving forward

 

[mister friendly]

I said so many other things more relevant to the discussion but we are going pick at semantics about whether top tier is elite? Or whether it was suggested was that the Bills defense was top tier or elite

Lets play it your way and pretend that your 3 statements don't correlate with each other and that only statement was just the Bills just will turn over alot quarterbacks...fine...Tom Brady didn't throw any interceptions vs the Bills and he threw for almost 500 yards vs 3 touchdowns vs them. A very different result than when Luck faced Bills. I thought Andrew Luck is only a few spots below Brady..why the vast difference in the performance? Are you going to tell me how Tom Brady has the great Dion Lewis to rely on?

Anyways....Can we address how Andrew Luck's interception per game and int percentage that you raved about is just the league average in 2014?

Can we address Andrew Luck's 13 turnovers in 6 playoff games or his 4.6 interception rate in the playoffs?

*Waits for an excuse about coaching, defense, running back, deflated Footballs weather etc

Why is it so hard to just say " I think Andrew Luck is going to be great, but he needs to cut down on his turnovers" instead of making every excuse in the book for him?

 

[rolaholic]

*4TD's,Chandler dropped 2TD's in the endzone B2b in the .

I agree with just about all of what you wrote

 

[CP1708]

Because it doesn't need to be said, at all.

1 INT per game, with over 600 attempts is NOT a cause for concern, at all. At. All.

He is in the top tier of fewest INT's per pass, ever. Period.

His rookie year he threw 18 picks, his career high. Peyton, Favre, Marino, Elway, Ben, Eli etc all had seasons with more than that.

It's not an issue.

40-16 TD/INT ratio in his THIRD season, better than any QB except Marino in their first 2-3 years in the league.

After 50 starts, he's thrown fewer than all those players I listed earlier.

You keep trying to compare rates with guys that averaged 20-25-28 passes per game, Luck is currently second all time at 38 attempts per game, yet his INT% is still lower than 95% of the QB's in the history of the sport.

These are the facts.

 

[651akathepaul]

Except when you are in the NFCCG and you can throw 4 INT's and have a fumble on a kickoff, and still win.........by less than a TD.

On fewer throws than Luck usually throws in a game.
And with a better RB.
Against the league MVP.

But hey.

In other words, woe is Andrew Luck.

This man's own head ******* coach said enough is enough. But yet here we are, continuing to make excuses for a 4th year quarterback who still continues to make mistakes.

Nobody said he's not great. We all can pretty much agree on that fact.

We all can also agree on the fact that the talent around him isn't the greatest.

All people are saying is that if he has a ****** team, he's not helping by fumbling the ball and throwing picks at a once per game rate. Which is problematic for a quarterback.

Point to all the advanced stats you want, speaking about the Steelers, there hasn't been a point in Ben's career where I'm like "wow, this guy turns the ball over too much." So you can miss me with that "those guys turn the ball over too!" *******t.

I'm not picking on you, so know that straight up because I'm just sifting through here trying to catch up and give my two cents as the shark that I am (that's for Ches)...

But...Pagano? We can take the time to discern between the faults of the team that has been "built" (GM) and the haves and have-nots, but what bothers me is taking this or a coaches press conference and use that for an overall argument. My reason for saying that is because Pagano is on the hot seat. I mean, the **** is sizzling. He's tied to this season and he damn well knows it.

We cannot sit here -- even behind computer screens -- and neglect the fact that despite the NFL housing the best of the best, that lots of GM's and coaches can sometimes be just simply (in every sense of the word) the next dude coming through on a conveyor belt that may or may not, really have clue what he is doing. Their opportunity finds them there, but that doesn't supersede know-how and results. Pagano may have a lot of points, but he also seems to have a lot of emotion at this point and his job being on the line needs some weight. I believe C CP1708 alludes to it later, but Pagano wasn't complaining when Luck was trudging through the mud with these dudes, including Pagano himself, on his back, and bringing these guys to a point in the season that a team with the same makeup, but with other types of QB's, would have no business being in. Pagano was all 'bout it then...Actually, here it is:

Coach said it after a 4 TO game, in other words, a one game reaction. Hot take if you will.

Pagano doesn't say anything when Luck goes for 400+ with 4 TD's and one INT, but he has to say it when there are multiple TO's. And Luck took it on himself as well.

They are still turnovers though, if a running back ran 50 yards and was stripped at the plus 30 yard line vs fumbling on his own 15 yard line. You aren't going to say one is a better turnover, they both suck.

There's something to this. I think a lot of people might agree, but the transparency of your stance (or so it comes off as an antagonist-type maybe?) makes it hard to truly make this objective among the crowd. Again, not trying to point at you directly mister friendly because I'm just sifting through the last few pages, and I know you're no stranger trying to hold your own, because we've all been there...

Turnovers are the bane of any coach, player and team as a whole...Singularly, the weight of a turnover is paramount. From afar, and with viewpoint, we are allowed to analyze -- as coaches might do with film study per se -- but as fans, it's allowed even more room for interpretation. That's just the nature. I know the feeling...The pressing feeling. Much much smaller scale than the NFL, but when the team around you isn't getting it done and you can sense they wont at that particular time -- you press. You force. Look at Romo...Dude got flak for years, but no one took to the time to realize how ****** that team was. Sure, they had Owens, but they had nothing else. Nothing. He couldn't take a step back without getting smothered. He created and led a team that otherwise should have been, at best, 4-12, to 7-9 or 8-8...Yet, it was always hating on Romo. Fast forward and he gets a strong offensive line, he doesn't press nearly to the degree he used to and he's uber-efficient and gets his team within a bogus call of being in the NFCCG. Luck has no one...Maybe a T.Y. to Romo's T.O., but what does that really accomplish in the ultimate team game? It doesn't...You take last years AFCCG team and give it to any quarterback that you consider above average -- below that elite tier -- and without the benefit of a past not told or seen, and as a betting man, I'm laying big dollars down that that team comes nowhere close to being one game away form the Super Bowl.

That's context, right?

Verbose, but @Chester McFloppy sums it up:

I've seen quarterbacks win Super Bowls in which they go 9/21 for 123 yards and 2 picks and not have to throw touchdowns until their team is already up by 29 points.

I've seen Tony Romo throw for 500 yards and 5 TDs, but still get the blame for a loss because of a lone turnover.

There's a lot more that goes into football than QB play but eh, it is what it is.

Favre w/ that 3.3%. 

GOAT...



Ya'll thinking negative, I just know it, but...Shutup! @DeadsetAce does it all the time!

P.S. - Like the guy, but him jumping into the middle of every-*******-quarterback discussion with Brady and/or Kate Perry laughing gifs is ANNOYING...We get it bro...We get it...Had you not been fortunate enough with Patriots/Brady happenstance, you still peg me as the guy that would be doing this with all the Q's you laugh at for teams in the NFCE...Don't lie! Lucky bastard...

Matt Stafford's career int% is lower than Troy Aikman and Dan Marino so don't trot all time greats out to prop up Luck's.

Also I think it BS to compare career int% to guys that have started twice the number of games.

And finally look at Luck's percentage when he has a higher YPA and attempts her game.

The one year Andrew Luck threw more passes than Matt Stafford his int% was higher.

Andrew Luck's 2013 statisically was Alex Smith in every way. Which helped his int%.

When Andrew Luck has thrown a high volume and deep his int% has risen.

Personally, the eye test tells me Andrew has trouble against good competition. I'd be interested to see what his record is against teams that finish above .500

Maybe it's good, idk. I do know the Pats take his soul every single time to the tune of about 50 to 10

The issue with NT will always be context.

It's always black and white here. Never grey.

Cliff:

**** you. Reading is fundamental. Something your quarterback doesn't have....Here's to you @StillIn729 @itsaboutthattime

 

[651akathepaul]

That was kind of fun, but wow...Get a ******* life, yo.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Because it doesn't need to be said, at all.

1 INT per game, with over 600 attempts is NOT a cause for concern, at all. At. All.

He is in the top tier of fewest INT's per pass, ever. Period.

His rookie year he threw 18 picks, his career high. Peyton, Favre, Marino, Elway, Ben, Eli etc all had seasons with more than that.

It's not an issue.

40-16 TD/INT ratio in his THIRD season, better than any QB except Marino in their first 2-3 years in the league.

After 50 starts, he's thrown fewer than all those players I listed earlier.

You keep trying to compare rates with guys that averaged 20-25-28 passes per game, Luck is currently second all time at 38 attempts per game, yet his INT% is still lower than 95% of the QB's in the history of the sport.

These are the facts.

LOL

Matt Stafford did that in his third year, was younger, had more yards, and a lower int%

So no saying Dan Marino is the only one to pull that off is NOT a fact

 

[651akathepaul]

I accidentally deleted a point after SP's post but I'm not doing it again. Ugh! It Was good though

 

[mister friendly]

Because it doesn't need to be said, at all.

1 INT per game, with over 600 attempts is NOT a cause for concern, at all. At. All.

He is in the top tier of fewest INT's per pass, ever. Period.

His rookie year he threw 18 picks, his career high. Peyton, Favre, Marino, Elway, Ben, Eli etc all had seasons with more than that.

It's not an issue.

40-16 TD/INT ratio in his THIRD season, better than any QB except Marino in their first 2-3 years in the league.

After 50 starts, he's thrown fewer than all those players I listed earlier.

You keep trying to compare rates with guys that averaged 20-25-28 passes per game, Luck is currently second all time at 38 attempts per game, yet his INT% is still lower than 95% of the QB's in the history of the sport.

These are the facts.

You re ignoring the fact that Peyton, Favre, Marino, Elway played in an different eras.

Like I said before the ;eague average interception rate for the early years for Elway and Marino was significantly higher than they are today(.9 interception per game vs 2.6 interception rate vs 1.4 interceptions per game and 4.5 interception pct.

I'm sure the league average was higher for Peyton's and Favre's first years.

You said this

Russell Wilson, "only 3rd QB ever to throw 50 TD's his first two years"...Stop saying that like it means something. It doesn't....Throwing TD's in 2012 and 2013 is NOT like throwing TD's in 1987 or 88. Or 93 or 94. Or 99 and 2000....STOP USING THAT LAME *** BAROMETER. Please.....You have a kid that gets the team on day 1, and gets to throw in an era where receivers have free run of the field. Every other QB for the past 75 years hasn't had that. QB's the last 5, do.....Stop using that stat like it's meaningful"

Doesn't that work in relation to interceptions too? If its easier to throw touchdown passes now....Could you assume its easier to not throw interceptions too?

Andrew Luck career interception stats on par with the 2014 league averages. Thats not top tier at all.

Also what about Andrew Luck's 13 turnovers in 6 playoff games and his 4.6 interception percentage? that's not top tier at all either.

You acting keep acting like turnovers are percentage stat when its more of a total stat and its basically the worse thing an offensive player can to do.

Its Football 101, the team that turns the ball over more, drastically increases their chances of losing.

 

[mister friendly]

.

They are still turnovers though, if a running back ran 50 yards and was stripped at the plus 30 yard line vs fumbling on his own 15 yard line. You aren't going to say one is a better turnover, they both suck.

There's something to this. I think a lot of people might agree, but the transparency of your stance (or so it comes off as an antagonist-type maybe?) makes it hard to truly make this objective among the crowd. Again, not trying to point at you directly mister friendly because I'm just sifting through the last few pages, and I know you're no stranger trying to hold your own, because we've all been there...

Turnovers are the bane of any coach, player and team as a whole...Singularly, the weight of a turnover is paramount. From afar, and with viewpoint, we are allowed to analyze -- as coaches might do with film study per se -- but as fans, it's allowed even more room for interpretation. That's just the nature. I know the feeling...The pressing feeling. Much much smaller scale than the NFL, but when the team around you isn't getting it done and you can sense they wont at that particular time -- you press. You force. Look at Romo...Dude got flak for years, but no one took to the time to realize how ****** that team was. Sure, they had Owens, but they had nothing else. Nothing. He couldn't take a step back without getting smothered. He created and led a team that otherwise should have been, at best, 4-12, to 7-9 or 8-8...Yet, it was always hating on Romo. Fast forward and he gets a strong offensive line, he doesn't press nearly to the degree he used to and he's uber-efficient and gets his team within a bogus call of being in the NFCCG. Luck has no one...Maybe a T.Y. to Romo's T.O., but what does that really accomplish in the ultimate team game? It doesn't...You take last years AFCCG team and give it to any quarterback that you consider above average -- below that elite tier -- and without the benefit of a past not told or seen, and as a betting man, I'm laying big dollars down that that team comes nowhere close to being one game away form the Super Bowl.

That's context, right?

Yes there are some times where a quarterback may feel the need to press. But there are other situations were a quarterback shouldn't press.

Example 2014 game vs the Eagles, the Colts are up 27-20 on the Eagles 22 yd line with 5 minutes left....Its 3rd and 9....he presses and throws it about 2 yards outside of a Ty Hilton who was covered with a safety over the top. Remember this was the supposed holding call? Either way he shouldn't have thrown the ball into that coverage. If he just takes the sack or throws the ball away, The Colts probably kick the field goal and go up 30-20 with less than 5 minutes left. Which I like their win probability.

Andrew Luck also pressed an early throw that led to an interception vs the Broncos . The Broncos offense eventually scored off the turnover. That game was decided by 7 points.

If the Colts win those 2 games, they are 13-3 with HFA all thru the 2014 AFC playoffs. You have to like those chances of making the Super Bowl vs having to play at Foxborough in January. The last 10 years...80 pct of the time, the home team has won the AFCCG.

I'm not saying Andrew Luck sucks or trying to hate on him..I'd like to watch him battle it out in Super Bowl 50 or whatever

I just don't think the Colts can win as constructed with him turning the ball over as much as he does for an elite quarterback.

New GM, new coach, new players.....none of those things are going to happen soon or quickly. The easiest and most realistic thing to correct is for Andrew Luck to cut down his turnovers.

 

[CP1708]

It goes both ways in a sense. YOU are the one that said defenses are more exotic and disguised and better prepared today than 1988.

So to say that Luck throwing 600+ times in a season, vs more advanced defenses/schemes vs 80's guys throwing 500 times with more INT's, forgive me if I don't see a reason to care about league averages then and now.

Point blank, period, per pass, Luck has thrown fewer.
After 50 games, Luck has thrown fewer. Bottom line.
And he's done so with no run game, horrible Oline, sketchy defense (hit and miss with them). So yeah, I don't see any reason at all to be concerned, especially when he has 101 TD's in those 50 games. (89+12)

SP, I'm gonna look up that Stafford year you're bringing up, gimme a sec.........

 

[CP1708]

I'll be damned, I was wrong, Stafford did have that one season. 41-16, 5K. I guess I can pretend that didn't happen because Calvin hit his absolute prime and went insane that year.

Or that he followed up the next year with a 20-17 ratio, on 727 (!!!!!!!!!!!) Attempts.

So I was incorrect, Marino, Stafford, and then Luck in terms of 40-16 ratio within 2-3 years.

 

[dmxfury]

What's the deal with Stafford. Do Lions fans think he can take them anywhere? What are the reasons for his regression? Injuries? Team around? Just peaked and can't match?

 

[fraij da 5 11]

I'll be damned, I was wrong, Stafford did have that one season. 41-16, 5K. I guess I can pretend that didn't happen because Calvin hit his absolute prime and went insane that year.

Or that he followed up the next year with a 20-17 ratio, on 727 (!!!!!!!!!!!) Attempts.

So I was incorrect, Marino, Stafford, and then Luck in terms of 40-16 ratio within 2-3 years.

Calvin did work with Drew Stanton/Dan Orlovsky combo at QB. 1300+ yards and like 14 TDs? 

 

[proshares]

Stafford is just not that good. They call them career years for a reason.

 

[mister friendly]

Basically you're going to keep talking about interception numbers without context, ignoring bad playoff interception numbers and dismissing the importance of most turning over the ball in the NFL.

Cool

 

[CP1708]

Without context? I'm the ******* guy that brought up Totals don't amount to anything and advanced stats need to be used more. That's context dude. I've also made numerous mention of INT's he's thrown while being hit, or ball tipped at the line, or wrong routes, INT's placed on him, but in context, NOT really on him.

Context. this ************.

The playoff thing is simple, Sample Size. 6 games. Thas it. Russ led the NFL in postseason INT's last year. You call him a leader, and a winner. You ignore those turnover issues, but want to hone in on Luck's, who plays with a lesser team.

Context tho.