Okay, can we FINALLY admit.....

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP

And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right? 

They do but I think it is just as foolish. Especially a QB when he has no control over the defense of his team. Blaming one man for the failure of a team is something I don't and will never get.

Oh bullcrap.  That's copping out.  The best damn players aren't great players because they do great things in the regular season.  So tired of everyone trying to back players by saying "oh his team wasn't good enough"  

Dan Marino never had a soul around him to win anything with.  He's a great QB, but when it comes down to the best of the best talk, he don't get invited to the party.  You can mention him, but he don't get the top spot. 
Mike isn't the goat because of what he did to teams in friggin December games
Magic/Bird aren't great because they lit up the Warriors alot. 

Quit copping out and hiding behind "oh my God, Mo Williams sucks"  We all know it's true that he does, Bron is certainly a great, but he don't get invited to the party yet til he does what those other guys did.  Regardless of all that other nonsense. 

4 years ago, Bron went to the finals.  People praised him UP AND DOWN about it.  Same time, they said Kobe got 3 rings only because of Shaq. 
Today, Bron still sits at zero finals victories in his career, and Kobe now up to 5. 

And now, winning is a team thing, and shouldn't matter when talking about the best of the best. 

Will Bron finally get one someday?  *shrugs*  Maybe.  Is it not possible that he could be Karl Malone as well?  *shrugs*  Maybe. 

But the excuses are null and void from this point forward.  He has his help now, let the chips fall as they may. 
  

 

[shoeking2101]

Originally Posted by knightngale

Originally Posted by shoeking2101

Originally Posted by mYToAsterspeak

I'm surprised this thread has this many pages. #6 has tremendous talent and basketball skill. But I'll tell you this, he has no heart, no courage, no poise, he's not a leader, he's a coward, and he folds under pressure when things start going astray. I can't stand that man, and I can't appreciate his talent as much because I absolutely loathe him as a human being. Plus I know things about how he used to treat the people who work at the Q, and how he used to let his family disrespect the people that work there also. Makes me dislike him even more

And everybody keeps talking about how he had no supporting cast in Cleveland, and how the Cavs failed in trying to get good players around him. I think it's silly and complete BS. You don't win 60+ games two years in a row if you have a team full bums, it would be impossible, and those teams had injuries throughout the year. Because by that logic, the Heat should be on their way to 70+ wins EASY. So that argument is tired and dumb and makes me

every time I hear it.

The Cavaliers would go to #6 and ask for suggestions on what players to try and get and would ask him to help recruit free agents and he always told them NO! So what did the Cavs have to do, give away draft picks to make trades and get players in Cleveland. And what did that do? Made us not be able to draft young players to keep restocking the team, and that made the team old. He handcuffed them by not committing to Cleveland and not even really giving a hint to other players that he might stay in Cleveland. He never promoted playing in Cleveland to other players in the league. I remember we could've gotten Michael Redd or Ray Allen, and #6 wouldn't even reach out to them. Ray Allen even said that's one of the reasons he didn't end up in Cleveland. Who would wanna come play in Cleveland if #6 wasn't here when you could go play in N.Y., L.A., Miami, Boston, or some other big market or nice weather place? Who would wanna go play for ANY team, when the star player on that team won't even talk to you, let alone promote the team and city to you?

This dude himself said one of the reasons he had to get out of Cleveland was because he felt he had to do to much for the Cavs to be successful, but if you look at these past 5-6 games for the Heat, if he wasn't out there playing out of his mind, most of those games are loses, so it looks like he's going thru the same thing in Miami that he claimed was the reason he needed out of Cleveland.

And as far as the Cavs being bums. Yeah they are, but any team would terrible if 4 of your players that get significant minutes should be playing in the D-league, your starting point guard and center been out for extended periods, your back up point guard has been out, your starting power forward catches passes with his face, and your back up center is sooo much of a bum that he loses jump balls to somebody he is damn near a foot taller than.

I'll take Durant or Kobe instead of that sucka.

Go Cleveland and go Cavs

Bro, you don't even know him. How can you hate someone that you do not know. Smh..Seriously. And you are straight hating taking durant or kobe instead of "number 6" or "That sucka."

How can you hate someone who you don't really know though....

  

He has no heart though. Look at game 5 vs celtics.

   "Kobe has no heart." Game 7 against the suns or game 7 against the celtics...he also demanded to be traded when things weren't going his way. Your point? Also, look at the game after that homie in the close out game of that series.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Mamba MVP, are you discounting LeBron because he has a damn bloated ego? What does any of that have to do with what I said in my posts or his play ON THE COURT? Shouldn't you also disregard Kobe as an all-time great because of adultery, the Colorado case, his rift with Shaq and Phil, and also for being among the more socially awkward athletes in today's sports?

I ain't discounting anything about him. Just stating what he said and how he's been a walking contradiction. I know how talented the dude is, fact is with all that talent and how other-worldly great he is, it hasn't translated to him winning a title. The excuse that he doesn't have good teammates or enough to get it done, okay I'll buy it for his time in Cleveland, but not on Miami. What more does he need, all his riders proclaim, just wait til he gets some help, then you'll see.

Well he's got help now, if he doesn't get it done, best believe most of the media and fans will pounce on him, not Wade, not Bosh, the spotlight will be front and center on LBJ. And if he does finally breakthrough, he'll finally be worthy of the pseudo-crown that he gave himself and everyone including myself will lead the cheers. 

We just look at things differently, neither opinion is right or wrong, just different points of view and that's fine. 

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Mamba MVP, are you discounting LeBron because he has a damn bloated ego? What does any of that have to do with what I said in my posts or his play ON THE COURT? Shouldn't you also disregard Kobe as an all-time great because of adultery, the Colorado case, his rift with Shaq and Phil, and also for being among the more socially awkward athletes in today's sports?

I ain't discounting anything about him. Just stating what he said and how he's been a walking contradiction. I know how talented the dude is, fact is with all that talent and how other-worldly great he is, it hasn't translated to him winning a title. The excuse that he doesn't have good teammates or enough to get it done, okay I'll buy it for his time in Cleveland, but not on Miami. What more does he need, all his riders proclaim, just wait til he gets some help, then you'll see.

Well he's got help now, if he doesn't get it done, best believe most of the media and fans will pounce on him, not Wade, not Bosh, the spotlight will be front and center on LBJ. And if he does finally breakthrough, he'll finally be worthy of the pseudo-crown that he gave himself and everyone including myself will lead the cheers. 

We just look at things differently, neither opinion is right or wrong, just different points of view and that's fine. 

 

[Betonblck]

Originally Posted by OneTrust

Originally Posted by cguy610

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by luxurious24

the heat has the third best record in the league, lebrons numbers overall are the best (26, 7, 7), so why shouldnt he be the leadin mvp candidate again?

But the thing is, the Heat are STILL not the favorite to win it all. The Lakers and Celtics are. The Heat are prime contenders, but they aren' thte favorite. So if they don't win it all. why should LeBronze be blamed and held responsible?

You people forget that these teams have to play other teams. So if those teams just have more better nights (series) why should the losing team's best player be blamed?

  

DC, this is a joke right?  You aren't serious are you.







Please tell me you aren't serious.  So Wade and Bosh aren't enough?  What, they need Dwight Howard and Derrick Rose too?

It's not enough to make them the favorites when you have no other depth besides them, but then again you're the same guy that thinks Jamison = Pau Gasol

  

You know what, Forget you for remembering that old discussion. 

 

[Betonblck]

Originally Posted by OneTrust

Originally Posted by cguy610

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by luxurious24

the heat has the third best record in the league, lebrons numbers overall are the best (26, 7, 7), so why shouldnt he be the leadin mvp candidate again?

But the thing is, the Heat are STILL not the favorite to win it all. The Lakers and Celtics are. The Heat are prime contenders, but they aren' thte favorite. So if they don't win it all. why should LeBronze be blamed and held responsible?

You people forget that these teams have to play other teams. So if those teams just have more better nights (series) why should the losing team's best player be blamed?

  

DC, this is a joke right?  You aren't serious are you.







Please tell me you aren't serious.  So Wade and Bosh aren't enough?  What, they need Dwight Howard and Derrick Rose too?

It's not enough to make them the favorites when you have no other depth besides them, but then again you're the same guy that thinks Jamison = Pau Gasol

  

You know what, Forget you for remembering that old discussion. 

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Mamba MVP, are you discounting LeBron because he has a damn bloated ego? What does any of that have to do with what I said in my posts or his play ON THE COURT? Shouldn't you also disregard Kobe as an all-time great because of adultery, the Colorado case, his rift with Shaq and Phil, and also for being among the most socially awkward athletes in today's sports?



"And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?"


The people who keep stats for them don't actually treat them as gospel. The baseball sabremetric community has moved away from W-L records for pitchers a long time ago (for the reasons I stated earlier) and football people are finding better ways to look at QB performance. They're only fodder for the causal fan and sensationalist sportswriter who, quite frankly, are lazy and don't want to be bothered with extra math and learning more about the game.

Oh so now people who aren't on these advanced statistics which didn't exist 20 years ago or were even paid attention to if they did, are just lazy? When the hell did seeing something with your eyes become a thing to look down upon?

Cosign everything CP said. Peyton Manning is my favorite NFL player, but do you think that I don't know that he would still be getting killed if he hadn't won that Super Bowl a few years ago. He didn't even play well in the Super Bowl game itself, but none of that mattered because he has a ring now, no one remembers how you got it done when you're an elite player, they just care that you DID get it done (well except in KB's case where he can't win on NT no matter what he does

)

There's a reason that MJ, Gretzky, Montana, etc. are at the tops of GOAT discussions in there respective sports and it's not cause they led the league in PER, QB rating, FG% or whatever you want to put on them. RINGS matter when you're the best of the best. 

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Mamba MVP, are you discounting LeBron because he has a damn bloated ego? What does any of that have to do with what I said in my posts or his play ON THE COURT? Shouldn't you also disregard Kobe as an all-time great because of adultery, the Colorado case, his rift with Shaq and Phil, and also for being among the most socially awkward athletes in today's sports?



"And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?"


The people who keep stats for them don't actually treat them as gospel. The baseball sabremetric community has moved away from W-L records for pitchers a long time ago (for the reasons I stated earlier) and football people are finding better ways to look at QB performance. They're only fodder for the causal fan and sensationalist sportswriter who, quite frankly, are lazy and don't want to be bothered with extra math and learning more about the game.

Oh so now people who aren't on these advanced statistics which didn't exist 20 years ago or were even paid attention to if they did, are just lazy? When the hell did seeing something with your eyes become a thing to look down upon?

Cosign everything CP said. Peyton Manning is my favorite NFL player, but do you think that I don't know that he would still be getting killed if he hadn't won that Super Bowl a few years ago. He didn't even play well in the Super Bowl game itself, but none of that mattered because he has a ring now, no one remembers how you got it done when you're an elite player, they just care that you DID get it done (well except in KB's case where he can't win on NT no matter what he does

)

There's a reason that MJ, Gretzky, Montana, etc. are at the tops of GOAT discussions in there respective sports and it's not cause they led the league in PER, QB rating, FG% or whatever you want to put on them. RINGS matter when you're the best of the best. 

 

[mjsaver]

Originally Posted by CP1708


But the excuses are null and void from this point forward.  He has his help now, let the chips fall as they may.   

* golf clap *

 

 

[mjsaver]

Originally Posted by CP1708


But the excuses are null and void from this point forward.  He has his help now, let the chips fall as they may.   

* golf clap *

 

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Oh so now people who aren't on these advanced statistics which didn't exist 20 years ago or were even paid attention to if they did, are just lazy? When the hell did seeing something with your eyes become a thing to look down upon?"

It's not. It's simply recognizing that they are limited tools to use especially when you consider the sheer amount of sensory information that is present during a single basketball game (and especially during an entire season's worth of games). And that's before you factor in the psychological biases that can "distort" what you see in your own mind. People have made this observation about other sports where less takes place at once on the field of action than basketball.

This has nothing to do with the point I made earlier though. The fact remains that ANYONE who uses team win-loss record and titles to compare individual PLAYERS is making the patently false assumption that one player wins games and titles by himself. This isnt up for debate - teammates MATTER. As much as CP (ignorantly) wants to overlook this very fact.By the way, Manning "didn't get it done". The Colts did, as a collective group.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"Oh so now people who aren't on these advanced statistics which didn't exist 20 years ago or were even paid attention to if they did, are just lazy? When the hell did seeing something with your eyes become a thing to look down upon?"

It's not. It's simply recognizing that they are limited tools to use especially when you consider the sheer amount of sensory information that is present during a single basketball game (and especially during an entire season's worth of games). And that's before you factor in the psychological biases that can "distort" what you see in your own mind. People have made this observation about other sports where less takes place at once on the field of action than basketball.

This has nothing to do with the point I made earlier though. The fact remains that ANYONE who uses team win-loss record and titles to compare individual PLAYERS is making the patently false assumption that one player wins games and titles by himself. This isnt up for debate - teammates MATTER. As much as CP (ignorantly) wants to overlook this very fact.By the way, Manning "didn't get it done". The Colts did, as a collective group.

 

[streethoopkilla]

If Lebron does not get a ring, he will be the best athlete in all of sports to never win a championship

 

[streethoopkilla]

If Lebron does not get a ring, he will be the best athlete in all of sports to never win a championship

 

[MVP]

I think you're in the minority Jedi...well at least in the people that I frequently have sports discussions with.

ESPN may be full of BS, but do you see the recognition and hoopla that Aaron Rodgers just got for winning the Super Bowl. They acknowledged that he was a great QB but were in agreement that he couldn't be placed into that "elite QB class" with Brady and Manning until he got that ring. Now he has it and some are proclaiming him as the best QB in the league. It may not matter to you, but it does to others and a vast amount of others. Rings and wins mean more when talking about specific people. You may not have that opinion but just to dismiss it as ignorant isn't very smart on your part, because a lot of people think that they do matter when talking about individual greatness.

 

[MVP]

I think you're in the minority Jedi...well at least in the people that I frequently have sports discussions with.

ESPN may be full of BS, but do you see the recognition and hoopla that Aaron Rodgers just got for winning the Super Bowl. They acknowledged that he was a great QB but were in agreement that he couldn't be placed into that "elite QB class" with Brady and Manning until he got that ring. Now he has it and some are proclaiming him as the best QB in the league. It may not matter to you, but it does to others and a vast amount of others. Rings and wins mean more when talking about specific people. You may not have that opinion but just to dismiss it as ignorant isn't very smart on your part, because a lot of people think that they do matter when talking about individual greatness.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"I think you're in the minority Jedi...well at least in the people that I frequently have sports discussions with."

Once upon a time, most people also thought the world was flat.

 

[lukethejediknight]

"I think you're in the minority Jedi...well at least in the people that I frequently have sports discussions with."

Once upon a time, most people also thought the world was flat.

 

[JD617]

And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?

Winning percentage for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports, but that's a whole different topic.

 

[JD617]

And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?

Winning percentage for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports, but that's a whole different topic.

 

[rolaholic]

Originally Posted by JD617

And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?

Winning percentage for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports, but that's a whole different topic.

This,as if the pitcher can control the offense 

 

[rolaholic]

Originally Posted by JD617

And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right?

Winning percentage for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports, but that's a whole different topic.

This,as if the pitcher can control the offense 

 

[kingjames23]

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP


And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right? 

W/L for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports. People are starting to move off that, see Felix winning the CY Young this year.

 

[kingjames23]

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP


And lastly for Jedi, why do they keep stats W-L records for quarterbacks or pitchers, etc. I mean they have teams too right? 

W/L for pitchers is one of the dumbest stats in sports. People are starting to move off that, see Felix winning the CY Young this year.

 

[38816]

Originally Posted by Statis22

Wally Szczerbiak was a legit starter in his day tho. :/

in his day....and he looked good because of KG....he was always DECENT....

when he played for the cavs he had been playing for a decade....and was GARBAGE

he didn't even have knees....

Originally Posted by cmoneymontana

Originally Posted by Rolaholic

These are LeBrons post-season averages

29.3 PPG,8.4 RPG and 7.3 APG including 6 triple doubles (1 of which he had in his last playoff game vs the Celtics,27-19-10) 

Saying that he can't perform in the playoffs is absolutely idiotic when he's put up the best playoff numbers since MJ.

But yet STILL does not have a championship.

Until he gets ONE ring, can you put him in the company of MJ and Kobe.

Even D.Wade has a ring.

Lebron has had mulitple chances, but has come up short EVERY time.

If Durant ever gets a big man in OKC, Lebron might not ever get a ring.

  

  

, your hate is SO STRONG

in this post i highlighted the severe lack of talent he's had

look at the cavs franchise without lebron....how in the world could you blame him for EVER losing on that team?

they are HISTORICALLY the worst team in professional sports EVER...

the next two largest losing streaks belong to franchises that no longer exist...

some pro football team in 1893 has the second longest losing streak now...

and you're actually criticizing lebron for not winning a ring with these guys?

its not that lebron had no help, he was actually at a DEFICIT playing with those guys under that coach...

most of his teammates those 7 years in cleveland were liabilities with the ball AND on defense....

a MAJORITY of his teammates were LIABILITIES on the court....

the hate is so strong.

the tears shall be delicious...

--Now he's won again and they're all like, "well he has Gasol, Dfish and a solid team now". So which one is it? No one wins/loses by themselves. 
WHY IS KOBE BEING MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD STILL

IT IS TRUE.

HE HAD THE MOST DOMINANT CENTER OF ALL TIME AND WON RINGS

THEN CRIED WHEN HE HAD NOBODY A LA LEBRON

NOW, HE HAS THE BEST TEAM IN THE LEAUGE (pre-heat) AND HE WINS

BIG WHOOP

Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Originally Posted by K2theAblaM

Lebron has been the best in the L for a few years now, no surprises there.

very debatable...in terms of statistics yes.. but he doesnt even have a complete game, like others

  

who has a complete game?

kobe?

yall make excuses for ANY weakness in his game...always excuses...

"he doesnt WANT to do it" "he doesnt NEED to do it"

lebron maybe the most complete player EVER.....he is not no.1 in every facet, but overall, he's higher in EVERY facet than anybody else...

he has the most complete game in the leauge....so to say "he doesnt have a complete game"

shows that you have no idea what a "complete" game is...

assuming you think kobe and kevin durant have "complete" games, im gonna assume you're a scoring !+*!%...

scoring is the most important thing to you....

by the way, ONE assist gives your team 2 or 3 EASY points....(layups, open jumpers)

kobe shooting over 3 defenders gets you 2 or 3 points, too...

which is a better shot, tho? a wide open layup, assisted...

or a fadeway three over 4 people?

just curious as to what YOU think, since you know basketball so well....

are 12 assists from lebron a better stat than 23 points from kobe?