Official Umar Johnson Thread

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by jerryjones

Originally Posted by sillyputty


The fact remains that its hard for me to take him seriously when he doesn't have a doctorate and yet he SAYS HE DOES...so much of what he's preaching is his own findings but not backed up by any of his peers...which is cool if he wants to be different but... don't lie about your credentials. Just say you're  a pro-black speaker. Stay in your lane. 

...hes falsifying his credentials...the same credentials he wants you to take seriously to listen to him. 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Millersville-University-of-Pennsylvania/103959016308410
Here are some of the credentials he lists.. I'm not sure whether any of these credentials mean he is a doctor or not.. But I came across it so I decided to post it....
Millersville University of Pennsylvania

Class of 1997 · B.A., B.S., M.S., NCSP · General Psychology · NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGY · Political science

On another note really good discussion... I always enjoy hearing Umar discuss issues facing the black community.. I heard many of his lectures and from my experience he doesn't spend a lot of time on homosexuality.. I can't really speak on if what he is saying is correct in the eyes of psychology  since I don't really have any knowledge of the subject, but I def think that is somethin to consider since he presents his whole perspective from the role of a psych counselor

PhD or MD though? 

My point exactly. 

I'm not hating on the dude...but don't use the "Doctor" title if you ain't one...

You want us to respect you because you use the "Doctor" title...but you're not even a doctor, so don't say it doesn't matter, because other wise you wouldn't have mad that title up. 

 

can't really speak on if what he is saying is correct in the eyes of psychology  since I don't really have any knowledge of the subject, but I def think that is somethin to consider since he presents his whole perspective from the role of a psych counselor

Don't let this fool you either. 

Always be critical of academics.

Always. 

Even if you agree with them. 

 

[obeahmyal]

LDJ...are you kidding me? Manning Marable an "un-established author"?

That's ludicrous. 
The late Dr. Marable was one of the foremost scholars documenting the increased political power of Black Americans during the the '60s. He did yeomen's work to trace the histories of Medgar Evers and Du Bois. He served as the founding director of African American studies at Columbia for over ten years. Perhaps your definition of being "established" means being a publicly recognized intellectual. But no one has ever attacked Marable on the grounds that his credentials were questionable. 

Your assessment of Marable and the controversy surrounding Malcom reeks of either anti-intellectualism or having not read the actual book. Maybe its both. 

 

[airmaxpenny1]

I mean I understand the importance of this for black people in having their own lines of thought, and he makes points that are generally ok some times but its just sloppy use of truth and science to promulgate his Pan-African ideology. I guess black people need their own tea party but these lines of thought's are basically in the same manner, just with different races.
I keep hearing this talk of homosexuality isn't black.  Well it wasn't white either until basically 40 years ago.  In most parts of this country you couldn't be banging guys and living an open life.   The rise in homosexuality is a product of overpopulation, black people aren't special and get to be from exempt from that.  Saying homosexuality isn't a black thing is moronic and assumes their are inherent differences between races which once again is just false.  There has never been 7 billion people on this planet before.  The rise in homosexuality is mainly a product of that, we are massively overpopulated.  Malcom X dabbled with dudes, Michael Jackson was a homosexual, like come on, y'all aren't unique.

And complaining non-black being in here? This isn't a Garvey forum, if you want it to be a homogeneous conversation take it somewhere else. Black people have been dealt as *#%#@$ as hand as they possibly could have but if you really think homosexuality is a major problem your deeply misguided.  I'd bet most of the same people claiming that are the ones bumping gangster rap that glorifies crime and black-on-black violence.  There are legions of reasons why blacks are in the position they are but basically advocating that white american and the media is promoting gayness to destroy the black community is laughable.  Y'all don't need help being destroyed, you guys consume the lowest economic totum pole in this country.  How about focusing on crime prevention in black communities in order so America can't lock up basically half the population of black males.  That seems like a much more tangible threat to y'all than gayness.

 

[goldenchild9]

airmaxpenny1 wrote:
I keep hearing this talk of homosexuality isn't black.  Well it wasn't white either until basically 40 years ago.  In most parts of this 

Don't know about that...Ancient Greece, Rome, Medieval Europe...rife with homosexuality.
No where near the same occurrence of homosexuality in Ancient African civilizations. 

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

airmaxpenny1 wrote:
I keep hearing this talk of homosexuality isn't black.  Well it wasn't white either until basically 40 years ago.  In most parts of this 

Don't know about that...Ancient Greece, Rome, Medieval Europe...rife with homosexuality.
No where near the same occurrence of homosexuality in Ancient African civilizations. 

How much do really you know about the life of ancient african civilizations as opposed to ancient european ones?



But never mind that look at all the animals that exhibit homosexual behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...xual_behavior_in_animals




But homosexuality in humans? No way.  

Thats a problem for yucky dirty white people. 

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

airmaxpenny1 wrote:
I keep hearing this talk of homosexuality isn't black.  Well it wasn't white either until basically 40 years ago.  In most parts of this 

Don't know about that...Ancient Greece, Rome, Medieval Europe...rife with homosexuality.
No where near the same occurrence of homosexuality in Ancient African civilizations. 

Once again that's painting white people with one big stroke.
Go to Russian and try to play that %!%! !@%@, you'll get your balls chopped off in a second.  And I always see people on here saying Egypt had no homosexuality, like we really know !@%@ about ancient civilizations.  History is just interpretations, historians can look at a scripture or a hieroglyphs and pretend to know what the !#*+ its saying but at the end of they day that isn't fullproof.  If y'all weren't gay, y'all wouldn't be gay.  Y'all just have this macho pride !#+@#%@! which means you guys bang each other behind closed doors. And now as society as becoming more accpeting of the practice y'all are upset black men are flagrant with it.  "That's not African." If it wasn't African they wouldn't be doing it than.  And don't come with me with the white supremacy argument, its lame.  Do you guys realize how hard the lives are for most young black males? The rate of homelessness for them in comparison to their peers.  Why would any kid choose to be gay in a community that is largely unaccepting of the orientation.

IF you really don't believe that there were some guys secretly cornholeing each other in ancient Egypt or Africa today than well...God bless you.   Humans really are stupid creatures.

 

[goldenchild9]

And I'm pretty well versed in the culture of many ancient African societies, have traveled to many places to personally view artifacts after I read up on them...no where have I ever seen any proof that homosexuality was as widespread in African civilizations as it was in comparable European civilizations. Its in Greek/Roman creation myth and a common behavior amongst their deities...there is abundant archaeological evidence of its significance in Ancient European culture (pedophilia as well)...homosexuality was fashionable among European elite for CENTURIES. There are many solid theories about why that is so.

Do you also know that tests have shown that pre-natal stress in animals produce de-masculinized offspring....that social isolation, deterioration of territory and other factors, which result in the decline of quality of life, caused dramatic spikes in displays of animal homosexuality?

http://books.google.com/b...nepage&q&f=false

 

[monstar1]

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

And I'm pretty well versed in the culture of many ancient African societies, traveled many places to personal view the artifacts after I read up on them...no where have I ever seen the any proof that was homosexuality as widespread in African civilizations as they were in comparable European civilizations. Its in Greek creation myths and a common behavior amongst their deities, there is abundant archaeological evidence of its significance in it's culture (pedophilia as well)...homosexuality was fashionable among European elite for CENTURIES. There are many solid theories about why that is so as well.

Do you also know that tests have shown that pre-natal stress in animals produce de-masculinized offspring....that social isolation, deterioration of territory and other factors, which result in the decline of quality of life is caused dramatic spike in displays of animal homosexuality?

http://books.google.com/b...over#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thank you.  2 chainz voice "Tell'emmmm"

All our teaching from school, history channel, etc. have shown how the european, greek, romans got down.  I really can't recall any stories, social acceptance, or anything of homosexual behavior in African culture.  Even if you can find something....its not even close in comparison to the europeans, greeks, and romans.  I remember back in school there were so man "pause" moments and times the teacher was embarrassed to explain when speaking on those cultures.  Those are facts

  

 

[goldenchild9]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

airmaxpenny1 wrote:
I keep hearing this talk of homosexuality isn't black.  Well it wasn't white either until basically 40 years ago.  In most parts of this 

Don't know about that...Ancient Greece, Rome, Medieval Europe...rife with homosexuality.
No where near the same occurrence of homosexuality in Ancient African civilizations. 

Once again that's painting white people with one big stroke.
Go to Russian and try to play that %!%! !@%@, you'll get your balls chopped off in a second.  And I always see people on here saying Egypt had no homosexuality, like we really know !@%@ about ancient civilizations.  History is just interpretations, historians can look at a scripture or a hieroglyphs and pretend to know what the !#*+ its saying but at the end of they day that isn't fullproof.  If y'all weren't gay, y'all wouldn't be gay.  Y'all just have this macho pride !#+@#%@! which means you guys bang each other behind closed doors. And now as society as becoming more accpeting of the practice y'all are upset black men are flagrant with it.  "That's not African." If it wasn't African they wouldn't be doing it than.  And don't come with me with the white supremacy argument, its lame.  Do you guys realize how hard the lives are for most young black males? The rate of homelessness for them in comparison to their peers.  Why would any kid choose to be gay in a community that is largely unaccepting of the orientation.

IF you really don't believe that there were some guys secretly cornholeing each other in ancient Egypt or Africa today than well...God bless you.   Humans really are stupid creatures.

I didn't say anything about "white people" though.
I'm just stating historical facts about "European" civilizations.

I'm pretty up to date with the hardships faced by young black males, being one myself

 And I have personally witnessed those stresses and cultural factors push males who were born straight into homosexuality. Bullying, abuse in the household, social isolation in the formative years, traumatic experiences like jail bids...I have seen all of those things lead to demasculinzed males, who become social outcasts and use homosexuality as a coping mechanism to fulfill the human need for companionship/sexual fulfillment.

Why would anyone chose to be a drug dealer, a murderer, a rapist or a criminal? The penalties for these behaviors are far harsher than those of homosexuality in our society....yet people make these choices everyday.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by MonStar1

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

And I'm pretty well versed in the culture of many ancient African societies, traveled many places to personal view the artifacts after I read up on them...no where have I ever seen the any proof that was homosexuality as widespread in African civilizations as they were in comparable European civilizations. Its in Greek creation myths and a common behavior amongst their deities, there is abundant archaeological evidence of its significance in it's culture (pedophilia as well)...homosexuality was fashionable among European elite for CENTURIES. There are many solid theories about why that is so as well.

Do you also know that tests have shown that pre-natal stress in animals produce de-masculinized offspring....that social isolation, deterioration of territory and other factors, which result in the decline of quality of life is caused dramatic spike in displays of animal homosexuality?

http://books.google.com/b...over#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thank you.  2 chainz voice "Tell'emmmm"

All our teaching from school, history channel, etc. have shown how the european, greek, romans got down.  I really can't recall any stories, social acceptance, or anything of homosexual behavior in African culture.  Even if you can find something....its not even close in comparison to the europeans, greeks, and romans.  I remember back in school there were so man "pause" moments and times the teacher was embarrassed to explain when speaking on those cultures.  Those are facts

  

Key word
Acceptance.

Doesn't mean that homosexuality did not exist...especially if ALL human populations and cultures exhibit it in some form or another. 

Don't equivocate the absence of evidence with evidence of absence. 

 

[obeahmyal]

What is up with all this "African Culture" non-sense?

As if culture culture remains stagnant. As if cultural practices are uniform for a group of people, much less throughout an entire continent. Culture is an ongoing production. 
Goldenchild, you write that you've seen plenty of African artifacts that don't show "proof" of ramped homosexuality. It is true that the dissemination of knowledge in many African societies was often passed down orally. On the flip side, the greeks and romans wrote down their history. The implication is that maybe one of the reasons we don't have evidence of homosexuality among African societies is because we don't have the written source that might otherwise contain references to the different sexual preferences of human beings. 

 

[goldenchild9]

Originally Posted by ObeahMyal

What is up with all this "African Culture" non-sense?

As if culture culture remains stagnant. As if cultural practices are uniform for a group of people, much less throughout an entire continent. Culture is an ongoing production. 
Goldenchild, you write that you've seen plenty of African artifacts that don't show "proof" of ramped homosexuality. It is true that the dissemination of knowledge in many African societies was often passed down orally. On the flip side, the greeks and romans wrote down their history. The implication is that maybe one of the reasons we don't have evidence of homosexuality among African societies is because we don't have the written source that might otherwise contain references to the different sexual preferences of human beings. 

No one is stating that culture is stagnant, we all know that culture is fluid and malleable. That same cultural fluidity can lead to a culture that is perverse, destructive and decrepit....or objection is what the way that our culture is currently being influenced and molded. 


Show me the prevalence of homosexuality culture in the vast written libraries of Timbuktu....because I can show it to you in spades in pre-inquistion Europe. 

Show it to me in the papyri of Ancient Kemet or Kush because it is written in Ancient Roman law that it was acceptable for slave owners to rape their male slaves.

All historical cues have shown that homosexuality was much more prevalent in Ancient Europe than it was in Ancient Europe.

Now Europeans want to force us into excepting their long held cultural norms and there is a justifiable backlash from segments of our community. 

Thats not to say that we are promoting the withholding of civil rights or advocating the mistreatment of any group but as an able minded adult community we the right to self-definition and can deal with issues of sexuality and family as we see fit...its a testament to the sickness of this culture that the upholding of heterosexual relationships as being normal is seen as adversarial or prejudicial. 

 

[airmaxpenny1]

I don't know, looks pretty Egypt look pretty ayo to me as well.

And I agree with you on points your making Goldenchild, I do think there is an aspect today of homosexuality being cool and people choosing it.  I'll be frank, the act of homosexuality disgusts me but then again, I'm a straight male as it should.  Our culture is overally sexualized and I think that's part of the problem that leads to this.  Gilrs see 16 in pregnant and think its cool to have a baby at a young age.  I routinely heard black males brag about losing their virginity at 13 or something like that as if it is cool.  That isn't a good thing.  I'd be willing to bet their is a relationship between our cultures over-sexualization and the rise of homosexuality.  Bayard Rustin was ayo and I'm pretty sure he was on the front line as much as anybody.  Y'all can deny Malcom if you like but the man was a criminal and a deviant at one point in his life who was completely misguided, why is him briefly dabbling in homosexuality so threatening to some of you? If any of you had read Kinsey there are levels of sexuality within each of us.  I know having conversations like this on NT turns into jokes and flames but I know kids who did gay #*#% when they were young and never did it again.  Kids get confused and they go into things.  Your right that the rise in black men being gay is associated with broken homes and social problems but that goes for overall culture as well.  Brazil is a pretty African place and as long as your the dominant one (giving) your not really considered gay there.  Its why when Ronaldo got caught with ******'s it was huge deal in Europe but not as much over there.

NT: Malcom used to be a gangster?

NT: Malcom used to dabble in ayo? They trying to bring us down man

Once again, humans ain't #*#%

 

[goldenchild9]

See the top right of that picture...where it says Ramesside Period?...Do a quick search on who occupied Egypt during that era and you will quickly see that the art and culture was heavily influenced by groups foreign to the African continent and races described as enemies by earlier Egyptian societies....namely the Hyksos, to whom bestiality was also quite normal and an accepted cultural practice. (per indigenous African themselves and European historians like Manetho)
Thats like showing proof of elements present in Native American culture with an Andy Warhol painting.

Its plain to see that this is not classical old/middle kingdom Egyptian art.

 

[goldenchild9]

And are you really gonna act like you don't partake in the negative imagery and promotion of black stereotypes through "gangster music" yourself?....

You theorize growing homosexuality as a result of overcrowding and media influence....yet you're mad at Dr. Umar for essentially stating the same thing?

 

[obeahmyal]

Ppreciate the response. Its a beautiful thing that the materials from the Timbuktu Andalusian library are currently being processed. Perhaps some ambitious scholar with the ability to read Koyra Chiini, among other languages, might shed some light on the presence of homosexuality. Goldenrod, do you qualify for the job?
The biggest problem is that you and many other pan-Africanists stress the cultural continuity between Kush, Timbuktu, Kemet and the present day. You believe that no matter how far removed we are from these ancient societies, African cultural practices are intrinsic and inform who we as black peoples are today.

This is a mythologized past that is very much a political project. But it's non-sense. You have already agreed that culture is "fluid and malleable." The logical conclusion, then, is that black peoples who have been in this country for over 400 years will have cultural practices that are radically different from those practiced in Kush and Timbuktu. So why include yourself along with members of these ancient African societies? Being the very definition of a creole means that perhaps African Americans have long since adapted homosexuality, if it is indeed a cultural practice, and that there really is no one forcing sexuality upon "us." Instead, homosexuality among African Americans is surfacing because of changing social norms. 

 

[quincy powell]

@ This thread being derailed and now stuck on the issue of Homosexuality. Either way it's and interesting theory from Umar Johnson.

 

[ldj]

ObeahMyal wrote:

---

LDJ...are you kidding me? Manning Marable an "un-established author"?

That's ludicrous. 
The late Dr. Marable was one of the foremost scholars documenting the increased political power of Black Americans during the the '60s. He did yeomen's work to trace the histories of Medgar Evers and Du Bois. He served as the founding director of African American studies at Columbia for over ten years. Perhaps your definition of being "established" means being a publicly recognized intellectual. But no one has ever attacked Marable on the grounds that his credentials were questionable. 

Your assessment of Marable and the controversy surrounding Malcom reeks of either anti-intellectualism or having not read the actual book. Maybe its both. 

But he still doesnt have commercial success. Its like the author of Behold a Pale Horse. William Cooper while a very established and intellectual man, its not like he has noriety. Same as Marable. Ask any person outside of being heavily into black history/studies who he is....... Exactly. You still didnt address the issues i pointed out. Why would a man who was all about equality, fair treatment and no discrimination for all ppl deny he had a homosexual love affair? It be like mlk having a secret life kids and all with a white woman. And also why would he hide this fact from his family and more importantly himself? Why would he keep a daily journal/diary and leave this portion out. I mean even if he was ashamed, why would it matter if it was his personal diary? And why would it matter to him if someone was to discover this after he died?

Its not like the case of mlk, where the woman actually came forth and the actions were all accounted for. Yes Marable is an established man, but just based off that i cant say oh he is well documented so his hersay must be true. But hell thats just my perspective on it. I also didnt jump the gun about oj, mjj, etc..

 

[ldj]

ObeahMyal wrote:

---

LDJ...are you kidding me? Manning Marable an "un-established author"?

That's ludicrous. 
The late Dr. Marable was one of the foremost scholars documenting the increased political power of Black Americans during the the '60s. He did yeomen's work to trace the histories of Medgar Evers and Du Bois. He served as the founding director of African American studies at Columbia for over ten years. Perhaps your definition of being "established" means being a publicly recognized intellectual. But no one has ever attacked Marable on the grounds that his credentials were questionable. 

Your assessment of Marable and the controversy surrounding Malcom reeks of either anti-intellectualism or having not read the actual book. Maybe its both. 

But he still doesnt have commercial success. Its like the author of Behold a Pale Horse. William Cooper while a very established and intellectual man, its not like he has noriety. Same as Marable. Ask any person outside of being heavily into black history/studies who he is....... Exactly. You still didnt address the issues i pointed out. Why would a man who was all about equality, fair treatment and no discrimination for all ppl deny he had a homosexual love affair? It be like mlk having a secret life kids and all with a white woman. And also why would he hide this fact from his family and more importantly himself? Why would he keep a daily journal/diary and leave this portion out. I mean even if he was ashamed, why would it matter if it was his personal diary? And why would it matter to him if someone was to discover this after he died?

Its not like the case of mlk, where the woman actually came forth and the actions were all accounted for. Yes Marable is an established man, but just based off that i cant say oh he is well documented so his hersay must be true. But hell thats just my perspective on it. I also didnt jump the gun about oj, mjj, etc..

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by goldenchild9

See the top right of that picture...where it says Ramesside Period?...Do a quick search on who occupied Egypt during that era and you will quickly see that the art and culture was heavily influenced by groups foreign to the African continent and races described as enemies by earlier Egyptian societies....namely the Hyksos, to whom bestiality was also quite normal and an accepted cultural practice. (per indigenous African themselves and European historians like Manetho)
Thats like showing proof of elements present in Native American culture with an Andy Warhol painting.

Its plain to see that this is not classical old/middle kingdom Egyptian art.

You said it. And in response to another post you said. Are ppl really saying that because white ppl did something in the past and it is documented that essentially blacks did it, even tho there isnt proof or a track record or any evidence to make such claims. 

Then someone says oh if it isnt natural then why do animals do it. Um animals do alot of things that are natural to them, should it be normal for us just cause animals do it? Animals eat their own feces. Should we do this also. Many animals kill their newborn births because they feel as if they are the weakest link and wont be fit to make it. Should we say oh lil such and such will most likely be a loser in life so we should bury this child/kill them at birth. Why not have kids and leave them at birth? This is a natural act of some creatures. Why not eat the placenta of our newborns. Why not kill the king (head of the household) gets old and the son comes of age?

So out of all the acts that animals/insects etc do we should ignore them all with the exception of homosexuality. And why out of all the acts,natural things other creatures do, does this one standout? 
  

 

[obeahmyal]

Commercial success is a poor barometer for measuring the substantive content from any person. Not sure if you're into hip hop but the likes of AZ, Big L, and so many ill hip hop artists have neither sold a ton of records nor received commercial success. In 2010, of the top 10 best selling books, four were teenage fictional accounts, and an appearance by Glen Beck to round it off. Not a single book on historical scholarship made the top 30 (and no, I don't consider Glen Beck's "Being George Washington" a work of history). The point here is that the majority of Americans listen and read garbage. Of course no one would know who Marable was. 
And as far as addressing your point, number one, there was no "love affair." Malcolm allegedly poured talcum powder on the penis of a rich, white benefactor. Not exactly what I call heterosexual, but not what i'd call having a "homosexual love affair," either. And as to why would Malcolm deny these actions, well, thats fairly easy. If we still have homophobic demagogues running around today, what do you think it was like in the '60s?! Moreover, what kind of reception do you think brother Malcolm would have received by the warring faction of the NOI?! 

And also, I have never gotten the impression that Malcolm was "all about equality, fair treatment and no discrimination for all people."

 You've done a better job at reinventing the life of Malcolm X than Marable himself. 

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by ObeahMyal

Commercial success is a poor barometer for measuring the substantive content from any person. Not sure if you're into hip hop but the likes of AZ, Big L, and so many ill hip hop artists have neither sold a ton of records nor received commercial success. In 2010, of the top 10 best selling books, four were teenage fictional accounts, and an appearance by Glen Beck to round it off. Not a single book on historical scholarship made the top 30 (and no, I don't consider Glen Beck's "Being George Washington" a work of history). The point here is that the majority of Americans listen and read garbage. Of course no one would know who Marable was. 
And as far as addressing your point, number one, there was no "love affair." Malcolm allegedly poured talcum powder on the penis of a rich, white benefactor. Not exactly what I call heterosexual, but not what i'd call having a "homosexual love affair," either. And as to why would Malcolm deny these actions, well, thats fairly easy. If we still have homophobic demagogues running around today, what do you think it was like in the '60s?! Moreover, what kind of reception do you think brother Malcolm would have received by the warring faction of the NOI?! 

And also, I have never gotten the impression that Malcolm was "all about equality, fair treatment and no discrimination for all people."

 You've done a better job at reinventing the life of Malcolm X than Marable himself. 

Keyword is still allegedly. And I think well in my eyes malcom was in alot of ways like martin yet diff. As out of the blue, unrelated as it sounds the 2 malcom and martin kinda remind me of prof. x and magneto. One is on some please oh please you can beat me/mistreat me and ill take it and beg and pled with you to respect me. The other is on some imma demand respect and if you dont like it oh well, im going to get it "cliche" by any means neccesary. As far as the backlash of what it would be if malcom says he was gay, um look at all the backlash etc things he had to deal with as it is. I dont think homosexuality would have made things to much worse then what he had to deal with/endure. I mean he was killed in essense for standing for what he believed in anyhow. Maybe comming out would have made his untimely demise happen sooner. But lets not paint it like he had some simple carefree life and that by being a openly gay black man was going to radically change his lifestyle.

And despise that why would he deny it from his family/kids and more importantly himself. It was in a personal diary, its not like today with fb/twitter etc and all your info even personal stuff can be access by any and all. If he was then well so be it, it wouldnt change his accomplishments and who he was as a man anyhow. And i dont think it would change anything about his very overlooked and under appreciated legacy.

 

[goldenchild9]

Originally Posted by ObeahMyal

Ppreciate the response. Its a beautiful thing that the materials from the Timbuktu Andalusian library are currently being processed. Perhaps some ambitious scholar with the ability to read Koyra Chiini, among other languages, might shed some light on the presence of homosexuality. Goldenrod, do you qualify for the job?
The biggest problem is that you and many other pan-Africanists stress the cultural continuity between Kush, Timbuktu, Kemet and the present day. You believe that no matter how far removed we are from these ancient societies, African cultural practices are intrinsic and inform who we as black peoples are today.

This is a mythologized past that is very much a political project. But it's non-sense. You have already agreed that culture is "fluid and malleable." The logical conclusion, then, is that black peoples who have been in this country for over 400 years will have cultural practices that are radically different from those practiced in Kush and Timbuktu. So why include yourself along with members of these ancient African societies? Being the very definition of a creole means that perhaps African Americans have long since adapted homosexuality, if it is indeed a cultural practice, and that there really is no one forcing sexuality upon "us." Instead, homosexuality among African Americans is surfacing because of changing social norms. 

Obeah,




Many Pan-Africanists promote cultural continuity, some incorporate the concept of genetic memory, namely "racial memory' (as categorized by Carl Jung) into the rationale of that strategy. But even so, we all know that we can not live today, exactly as our forebears did hundreds of years ago. What we can do; however, is to create a syncretistic culture based on the best of those societies and the best of our diasporan experiences. To many Pan-Africanist groups (who have varied ideologies btw) homosexuality is not a viable, favorable or desirable societal or cultural norm, nor one which they choose to promote. Rather they (we) seek to promote the traditional healthy heterosexual relationship as the social sexual archetype, while understanding that there are deviations from that norm....but not accepting the profligacy of that deviant behavior as normalcy.

PN: I'm no linguistic scholar but I did have a trip to Timbuktu planned for early next year until my Malian friend informed me that the kidnapping of people with U.S.A. passports has become widespread since the deposing of Gadhafi. 

 

[antonlavey]

Are these people serious? The Ancient Egyptians were gay as hell.

And like someone said, just because something isn't accepted doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by LDJ

AntonLaVey wrote:

---

Originally Posted by Deuce King

 
You still believe that claim to be true??

I for one do, and it doesn't bother me one bit. Most importantly it doesn't take away from any of his achievements and struggles for CIVIL RIGHTS.

But why. I mean the man who made the claims isnt even a witness, he basically says he heard it from someone, who heard it from someone else close to him. I mean its really a bunch of he said she said. That and the fact that the alleged person says they saw it in his day-to-day journal, yet the only person who has it is his daughter. And she says she hasnt let this so called person access to the journal. And the fact that she says her father told her every aspect/everything about himself. So why would he one keep a daily journal and include everything in his life except this one incident? Also it was a personal journal/diary, so why wouldnt he write it? To hide it from himself? And why would he lie/mislead his own children?

Seems like this is nothing more then 1, trying to use the black communities view on homosexuality to tarnish a already downplayed legacy. And 2, being a unknown un-established author, try to sell a book by creating controversy.

But im glad alot of ppl giving the man props and opening up and listening to what mr umar has to say. He is an inciteful and intellectual brother.

Right, I guarantee if the journal had something that promotes your agendas you wouldn't be questioning its validity.

 I've seen black people accept more baseless, uneducated, pseudoscientific bull just because it promotes their (sometimes hateful and ignorant) agendas, when something comes out that doesn't they automatically question it. His image is tarnished to people like you because you see homosexuality in a negative light, it's the exact opposite for me. If Malcolm was gay I would welcome it with open arms. In fact I hope more evidence comes out black leaders being gay. Let's not act like this is farfetched.