***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[seandon23]

I beg your pardon...

Both men sugar-coated the slavery experiment while likening said experience to immigration. Neither statement justifies the faux outage that was put on display for Dr Carson. But it appears that any opportunity to belittle a black conservative can't be passed up.

you, just like the article are cherry picking anything to prove a point. tell me where Obama undermined the plight of slaves. Tell me where and when Obama said that because the article doesnt. and again like i said CONTEXT matters because what Obama is saying and Carson are saying are two separate things like i said in my post. you cant gloss over the fact that Carson says, "There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less."  

Carson is drawing comparisons to slavery as being the same struggles as immigrants coming to the country when it isn't true. you and the article seem to miss the bolded part of this with every post you make. Obama does not say anything remotely close to this but again you are cherry picking what i say to fuel a flawed comparison. 

 

[seandon23]

i can't call it...
i wasn't referring to the discourse in this thread, rather much of the way we consume media at large...i'm not going to front like i know all the problems of healthcare in all their complexity, how each party has decided to solve them, or whose plan is better, but it is fairly obvious that both the gop & dems are not where the majority of people are with a whole range of issues, including healthcare...and that is the main issue with politics today, the dems plan may indeed be 'better' but is their plan what people actually want?

but what you're are saying is wrong in that neither party are with the majority of the people. it is a false equivalency like i stated in the post. and again saying that neither has a better plan than the other is not true. PERIOD. we have talked in this thread numerous times about the differences in both parties plans so instead of saying things such as this i would suggest trying to better understand the situation and what both parties offer in the form of the new GOP plan and the ACA.

and your last point doesnt make sense. people have been complaining about the new GOP bill because they do not like it. if you looked at public opinion polls and studies, more people like Obamacare today more than ever because 1. it is a nice plan with flaws that could be remedied if we had two parties working toward the people and 2. the alternative is trash. the GOP plan is a terrible compared to what we have now and there are many people worried about losing their coverage and having to pay more for less for coverage. the Democrat's plan is better but if you/others do not take the time out to understand its pros/cons then how can you make the informed decision to know either? that is the true problem with politics today, not what you have insinuated although it is a major problem in itself which i agree with. people have to be willing to become informed so that they can elect people who will serve in their best interest but many people do not take the time out to read up and seek the information they need.

 

[RustyShackleford]

this assumes politicians are well versed or more knowledgeable than the average person in policy, with is probably a good assumption but maybe not necessarily always true...politics isn't exactly like law or medical knowledge...

That's why we get to choose them after they've told us what they know/stand for. Normally that works out sort of okay...

i can't call it...

i think most would admit bias, and up to a point your examples, though not totally accurate in my opinion, illustrated that; that neither took the comparison(s) seriously is something of a missed opportunity to really parse WHY those examples were different...unfortunately that is where discourse is, just at the surface level on most things, because most don't really have the time or want to spend their time with nuanced arguments...i don't know that you can assume understanding just because of where someone is from, but i'll digress from that point to agree that questioning carson's blackness is unnecessary...

what people (be them politicians or not) 'should' and do 'actually' know about the system is very much up for debate...and it isn't clear to everyone which party has better solutions for the healthcare system, frankly it seems both parties are not where the majority of the people are in regards to the healthcare system, and the overall direction of the country generally; and that is the main reason most people are put off with politics today...

the discourse isn't being discussed on surface level stop it. dude brought a terrible example of something completely grasping at straws to prove a flawed assumption. period. and the discussion of blackness shouldn't be needed but it is somewhat baffling for a black man to undermine slavery the way Carson does which is troubling in itself. the problem truly lies in the fact that when trying to compare Obama and Carson is that people are mis-contextualizing what Carson said to what Obama said so it is wrong to do so because it isn't true nor is there any merit to what Carson is saying.

actually we have talked in this thread a lot about how the Democrats have a better understanding on healthcare in this thread. go read it and again look at how many people are talking about Obamacare. for years the GOP and right wing media has distorted what Obamacare is, without having anything worth of substance to bring to improve it or come up with a new plan. saying that neither party has better solutions is showing your lack of knowledge in the discussion and is a false equivalency to the highest degree there is. and this once again goes back to my point about people not knowing what is in their best interest because they do not understand the healthcare system and what they need out of it. while on one hand average people shouldn't have to worry about this, these people in polls are voted in to SERVE the people and a majority of people do not want to lose their coverage under Obamacare. but to say that neither party has what the majority of people want is again not true and shows how you are out of touch with what is going on in the news 

i wasn't referring to the discourse in this thread, rather much of the way we consume media at large...i'm not going to front like i know all the problems of healthcare in all their complexity, how each party has decided to solve them, or whose plan is better, but it is fairly obvious that both the gop & dems are not where the majority of people are with a whole range of issues, including healthcare...and that is the main issue with politics today, the dems plan may indeed be 'better' but is their plan what people actually want?

But the Dems heath care policies do align with what people want

 

[tokes99]

this assumes politicians are well versed or more knowledgeable than the average person in policy, with is probably a good assumption but maybe not necessarily always true...politics isn't exactly like law or medical knowledge...

That's why we get to choose them after they've told us what they know/stand for. Normally that works out sort of okay...

Part of the problem is that trust in objective analysts has eroded.

We should be free to choose, but we should also have a chance to see the truth laid out for us. The reason people are against the ACA isn't because of ideology or economics. It's because they have been presented a partisan account that plays to their emotions.

The same goes for manufacturing jobs. People are being fed a narrative they feel good about, so they will vote for the candidate that promises to return them all to a dangerous coal mine while also stripping them of the health coverage they will so desperately need for their black lung, their opioid addiction, and the complicated pregnancies their wives will endure.

I know there's no good way to implement this, but it would be great to have an oversight committee of fact-checkers that has the power to remove names from the ballot if they are caught lying or to impeach those already in office. Or, in another version, this committee would assign scores to each senator and representative based on how truthful they have been in the past, and that score is used to weight their votes. Obviously it's a pipe dream but one can still dream.

i highlight the manufacturing thing because it isn't necessarily true that is just a narrative, or at least it doesn't have to be, there are choices being made that have made it the case that manufacturing jobs have eroded...there are examples of industrialized nations like germany, japan & some of the nordic/scandinavian retaining good manufacturing jobs at a decent scale.

it would be interesting if every politician did have like a "truth score" rating, if that would really change some things but that information is already outchea if we were so inclined to seek it out...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

i highlight the manufacturing thing because it isn't necessarily true that is just a narrative, or at least it doesn't have to be, there are choices being made that have made it the case that manufacturing jobs have eroded...there are examples of industrialized nations like germany, japan & some of the nordic/scandinavian retaining good manufacturing jobs at a decent scale.

it would be interesting if every politician did have like a "truth score" rating, if that would really change some things but that information is already outchea if we were so inclined to seek it out...

really? like what

the decline in manufacturing’s share of U.S. GDP over the last forty years is nearly identical to the decline in world manufacturing as a share of world GDP, which fell from 26.6% in 1970 to 16.2% in 2010. Therefore, we can conclude that the declining share of manufacturing’s contribution to GDP is not unique to America, but reflects a global trend as the world moves from a traditional manufacturing-intensive “Machine Age” economy to more a services-intensive “Information Age” economy.

In that case, even if the U.S. was a closed economy with no competition from foreign manufacturers, it would have been inevitable that manufacturing’s share of national income and employment would have followed exactly the same downward trend that prevailed over the last forty years,

 

[rolaholic]

Dudes have legit said F all the dog whistles word to "peaceful ethnic cleansing" ,feeling mighty emboldened thanks to President Bannon

Got open Nazi's in congress

 

[gry60]

if you/others do not take the time out to understand its pros/cons then how can you make the informed decision to know either? that is the true problem with politics today, not what you have insinuated although it is a major problem in itself which i agree with. people have to be willing to become informed so that they can elect people who will serve in their best interest but many people do not take the time out to read up and seek the information they need.

Alladis.

 

[gry60]

Dudes have legit said F all the dog whistles word to "peaceful ethnic cleansing" ,feeling mighty emboldened thanks to President Bannon

Got open Nazi's in congress

The only people this will surprise are the minority conservatives who keep voting for their own extermination. Those fools keep thinking that the extreme right has their best interest at heart if they are willing to work hard and live perfect lives, even though those same righties don't work half as hard and are presiding over courthouses, police departments, and senates with restraining orders, DUIs, domestic violence charges, non-payment of child support cases and what have you against them.

It will be a good day (or too late) when they realize they have been the useful idiots of White Supremacy.

 

[whywesteppin]

I enjoyed reading this interview with Nobel laureate (economics) Angus Deaton: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/03/angus-deaton-qa/518880/

Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?
The Nobel laureate Angus Deaton discusses extreme poverty, opioid addiction, Trump voters, robots, and rent-seeking.

Someone asked me the other day when I was giving a talk a really interesting question. They said, “If you abolished the government, would America be more or less equal?” Because there’s all the equality that comes from redistribution but there’s all the inequality that comes from rent-seeking. And it’s not clear to me which one.

The Nobel thing is like dying and going to heaven for a while. It’s like being transported to a fairyland. But this was one of the more fairyland parts of the fairyland experience. There were four of us who were U.S. citizens, sitting there in the waiting room. Have you been there? There’s a waiting room outside outside the Oval Office, which has Norman Rockwell drawings of people waiting outside the Oval Office. It’s really cool.

We were in alphabetical order. Word came from within that Anne and I were to go in first. He opened the door himself, and I shook his hand and I said, “I’d like you to…”

And he reached over and he said, “Professor Case needs no introduction to me. I am a great fan of her work.”

When she left she said, “I think I’m in love!” It was just fantastic. He’d read our dead-white-people paper down to the footnotes.

I’ll tell you another interesting thing: There’s only one Congressman in all of Congress who called us up to make an appointment to talk to us about the dying white people, because they were in his constituency and he was really concerned about them. Guess who it was. ... Keith Ellison! I was really impressed.

Here's a link to the referenced paper by Case and Deaton: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/49/15078.full

Midlife increases in suicides and drug poisonings have been previously noted. However, that these upward trends were persistent and large enough to drive up all-cause midlife mortality has, to our knowledge, been overlooked. If the white mortality rate for ages 45−54 had held at their 1998 value, 96,000 deaths would have been avoided from 1999–2013, 7,000 in 2013 alone. If it had continued to decline at its previous (1979‒199 rate, half a million deaths would have been avoided in the period 1999‒2013, comparable to lives lost in the US AIDS epidemic through mid-2015. Concurrent declines in self-reported health, mental health, and ability to work, increased reports of pain, and deteriorating measures of liver function all point to increasing midlife distress.

 

[IATT]

 

[tokes99]

but what you're are saying is wrong in that neither party are with the majority of the people. it is a false equivalency like i stated in the post. and again saying that neither has a better plan than the other is not true. PERIOD. we have talked in this thread numerous times about the differences in both parties plans so instead of saying things such as this i would suggest trying to better understand the situation and what both parties offer in the form of the new GOP plan and the ACA.

and your last point doesnt make sense. people have been complaining about the new GOP bill because they do not like it. if you looked at public opinion polls and studies, more people like Obamacare today more than ever because 1. it is a nice plan with flaws that could be remedied if we had two parties working toward the people and 2. the alternative is trash. the GOP plan is a terrible compared to what we have now and there are many people worried about losing their coverage and having to pay more for less for coverage. the Democrat's plan is better but if you/others do not take the time out to understand its pros/cons then how can you make the informed decision to know either? that is the true problem with politics today, not what you have insinuated although it is a major problem in itself which i agree with. people have to be willing to become informed so that they can elect people who will serve in their best interest but many people do not take the time out to read up and seek the information they need.

i understand nothing will be perfect, but perhaps you are somewhat missing what i'm getting at, it may be the case that the majority of people prefer what was the ACA over what the republicans are proposing, that is different than saying that the ACA (even with tweaks) IS ultimately what the majority of people want if the choices were to be expanded, you might say that this is an academic/theoretic distinction but it isn't a false equivalency to say neither plan is what the people would want if they had broader options...you're right ultimately it is on me/others to get informed...but i feel like even with all ease with which information can be found, it is difficult to sift through what is actual analysis & just opinion, for me at least, and i would suspect this is the case for most people; which is why the easily digestible black or white hot takes get so much burn...and if i am being honest i don't even try anymore to keep up with most of what is going on in the political arena other than what is in the random sources of media or topics of interest to me that i come across, mostly superficially i'd admit, but i also don't find myself too concerned about the outcome of elections or policy decisions though...

i highlight the manufacturing thing because it isn't necessarily true that is just a narrative, or at least it doesn't have to be, there are choices being made that have made it the case that manufacturing jobs have eroded...there are examples of industrialized nations like germany, japan & some of the nordic/scandinavian retaining good manufacturing jobs at a decent scale.

it would be interesting if every politician did have like a "truth score" rating, if that would really change some things but that information is already outchea if we were so inclined to seek it out...

really? like what

the decline in manufacturing’s share of U.S. GDP over the last forty years is nearly identical to the decline in world manufacturing as a share of world GDP, which fell from 26.6% in 1970 to 16.2% in 2010. Therefore, we can conclude that the declining share of manufacturing’s contribution to GDP is not unique to America, but reflects a global trend as the world moves from a traditional manufacturing-intensive “Machine Age” economy to more a services-intensive “Information Age” economy.

In that case, even if the U.S. was a closed economy with no competition from foreign manufacturers, it would have been inevitable that manufacturing’s share of national income and employment would have followed exactly the same downward trend that prevailed over the last forty years,

it doesn't surprise me that manufacturing has been broadly on the decline in most of the world, i maybe shouldn't have put it in the present tense, but i don't think it is a forgone conclusion that manufacturing jobs must continue to decline here and that better/higher education in and of itself is the answer. i can't say what decisions have or should be made differently only that other countries have made choices to encourage/protect certain industry/workers, why couldn't america do the same?

 

[frink85]

Until he goes outside in public.

Also he's Hispanic and Latino? Wow he's very multicultural, couldn't possible be racist!

 

[RustyShackleford]

I don't agree with Osh on some of the political aspects of trade, the situation we are in was naturally gonna happen but has been put in overdrive by crony capitalist.

However, banking on manufacturing coming back to save middle uneducated America is a fool's errand......

Newly built factories employ a fraction of the workers it once did.

Even if you say "well manufacturing jobs seem to be increasing", the disturbing part is that production has reach its previous peak with much less workers.

The robot apocalypse is now looks like it will ravage the white collar work for too (that might be a blessing in disguise). So sooner or later, America will have to address the income and wealth inequality.

 

[aepps20]

Steve King should've referred dude to da looming census. All will be revealed.

 

[RustyShackleford]

They ain't a monolith b

 

[whywesteppin]

it doesn't surprise me that manufacturing has been broadly on the decline in most of the world, i maybe shouldn't have put it in the present tense, but i don't think it is a forgone conclusion that manufacturing jobs must continue to decline here and that better/higher education in and of itself is the answer. i can't say what decisions have or should be made differently only that other countries have made choices to encourage/protect certain industry/workers, why couldn't america do the same?

productivity has skyrocketed. do we really need to manufacture more?

but i do agree with your second part of that sentence, that higher education may not be the answer.

I've said this before: we need to face the reality that, with modern technology, we can provide basic needs and technology to everyone in the united states even if a large percentage of the population is not working. maybe not in 2017 but in the near future. both parties (Republicans more than Democrats) have not fully embraced this new future, a future that will require innovative solutions.

and, if done correctly, we can enter a new era of prosperity and progress. we must work with the machines though and we must move beyond the old rhetoric.


and i think a key component will be modernizing the economy and understanding that wealth in this modern era has to be spread.

 

[moe fab]

#Calexit

We only gettin kloser

 

[RustyShackleford]

#Calexit

We only gettin kloser

You famb, but chill wit the Calexit talk, we need y'all more than ever.

 

[tokes99]

I don't agree with Osh on some of the political aspects of trade, the situation we are in was naturally gonna happen but has been put in overdrive by crony capitalist.

However, banking on manufacturing coming back to save middle uneducated America is a fool's errand......

Newly built factories employ a fraction of the workers it once did.

Even if you say "well manufacturing jobs seem to be increasing", the disturbing part is that production has reach its previous peak with much less workers.

The robot apocalypse is now looks like it will ravage the white collar work for too (that might be a blessing in disguise). So sooner or later, America will have to address the income and wealth inequality.

true manufacturing may never come back, but might something be done that encourages/grows/protects american workers in the manufacturing sector? i mean ideally a broader 'safety net' for all would be better, but as i understand it we already do have protections for some kinds of work, so why not people in this vulnerable area? i do think it is likely being underestimated the amount that the ai/automation will impact white collar work...

wealth inequality is one of those things that i don't really understand how it has gotten to this point, seeing these statistics about how ceo pay has ballooned to hundreds of times the average worker and the way unions have been diminished/neutered, i wonder what incentive is there for things to change really? especially seeing as there such a winner take all kind of mentality globally where the big players and those at top crowd out the small guys and those at the top use their influence to forward their own agenda(s) which don't seem to advantage the average person/worker. in the global context, are things closer to zero sum, that is, how much of the the inequality here is due to other places in the world just being more competitive and thus stagnating/depressing wages or eliminating jobs overall for most people here?

it doesn't surprise me that manufacturing has been broadly on the decline in most of the world, i maybe shouldn't have put it in the present tense, but i don't think it is a forgone conclusion that manufacturing jobs must continue to decline here and that better/higher education in and of itself is the answer. i can't say what decisions have or should be made differently only that other countries have made choices to encourage/protect certain industry/workers, why couldn't america do the same?

productivity has skyrocketed. do we really need to manufacture more?

but i do agree with your second part of that sentence, that higher education may not be the answer.

I've said this before: we need to face the reality that, with modern technology, we can provide basic needs and technology to everyone in the united states even if a large percentage of the population is not working. maybe not in 2017 but in the near future. both parties (Republicans more than Democrats) have not fully embraced this new future, a future that will require innovative solutions.

and, if done correctly, we can enter a new era of prosperity and progress. we must work with the machines though and we must move beyond the old rhetoric.


and i think a key component will be modernizing the economy and understanding that wealth in this modern era has to be spread.

but the average person hasn't/isn't getting the gains of that increased productivity via their income/wages, although maybe that is somewhat offset by the cheaper costs of goods & services? i can't say if making more stuff is the answer, but keeping people employed such that they are able to live decently is something that seemingly should be important...

#Calexit

We only gettin kloser

i think cali on its own would be like the #5 or 6th largest economy in the world...which is kinda amazing...

 

[gry60]

i can't say what decisions have or should be made differently only that other countries have made choices to encourage/protect certain industry/workers, why couldn't america do the same?

As Rusty and Whywesteppin mentioned, it would be impratical to bring back manufacturing today. The truth is that some of it should have never left in the first place, but the belief in increasing the rate of economic growth led us to where we are right now.

France fervently protects industries that it considers part of its cultural identity (you can't sell a sparkling wine made outside of the Champagne region with that name for example). America chose to "sell out" its clothing and footwear blueprints to Chinese factories in exchange for bigger profits; the American consumer chose to support Walmart over the local shop in exchange for lower prices. How many people were willing to buy less and buy American? How many executives and shareholders were willing to live with slower growth and smaller profits? Not that many, and here we are.

 

[whywesteppin]

but the average person hasn't/isn't getting the gains of that increased productivity via their income/wages, although maybe that is somewhat offset by the cheaper costs of goods & services? i can't say if making more stuff is the answer, but keeping people employed such that they are able to live decently is something that seemingly should be important...

you're right. productivity has skyrocketed but the pay/reimbursement for that increased productivity has lagged far behind. the result is increased income inequality. what we need is a social safety net. don't call it welfare. just call it basic needs.

the other half to this though is that people need to feel useful and productive. that's why manufacturing resonates with the average man. you use your hands and you make something. we need to find a substitute, if only for the mental health of the average American. i don't know what that substitute would be though.

the counterargument -- unemployment is very low right now, even with this massive decrease in manufacturing jobs over the years. so things are actually ok right now. simply spreading the wealth more evenly would take care of a lot.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Income and wealth inequality has gotten so bad because for the past, pass few decades policy makers have prioritized the economic well being of the rich and corporations over the middle class/lower middle class and poor. It is not by accident we are in this situation, it is by design. If we had four decades of strong pro labor, pro consumer, no deregulation, and expanded the social safety net for the bottom income brackets, and pro racial justice, America would be a very different place.

Our monetary policy, our fiscal policy, our tax code (and the tax breaks within it) all favor the wealthy.

Yes there is a strong racial aspect to it too. Many in the white working class, especially Southerners, scarified the economic security to elect policy makers that would construct a system to discrimination against minority groups, especially African Americans.

I disagree with Obama on a few things regarding the economy, but he has a very good understanding of the problem facing the country. One point that he makes which is 100% true is that the Reagan Era has distorted the economic conversation in this country. People have no real idea why growth was so strong during the later half of the decade and by default give Reagan and his ideology all the credit. To this day we have to discuss economic policy in a way that gels with those failed ideologies.

 

[noskey]

#Calexit

We only gettin kloser

You famb, but chill wit the Calexit talk, we need y'all more than ever.

As long as Oregon and Washington can join, you always welcome to move with us Rusty

 

[RustyShackleford]

Nah B, most of the black community is on the east coast and deep South. I ain't leaving my folk behind.

It would feel like I am living in exile.

 

[whywesteppin]

#northeasexit