Official NBA 2012-2013 Season Thread

[big j 33]

 

[antidope]

This is the NBA Thread, there is a thread dedicated to discrediting Kobe its called the Kobe Overrated Thread, please use it!

It isnt a knock on Kobe by any means. If we're talking about the Lakers with Mike D'Antoni as the coach, I think them minus Kobe would be better if not at least comparable. He would be able to impliment his offense to a higher degree without Kobe there because he demands a large amount touches and shots. Obviously Kobe has won them games alone this season and should get credit for it, but I think that with Kobe gone, they'd get to feed Howard more, and open up more opportunities for shooters amongst a few other things.



Maybe better record was a reach, in fact I wanna withdraw that. Big Js right, you cant base an argument on hypotheticals it leads to nothing. Delete all my recent Posts SKA/Animalthug/Meth

I know youre an objective guy.
I know you post genuine beliefs.

But i just dont think you're dissecting that situation enough and really thinking about what the team would be like without Kobe.
I dont wanna make TOO long of a post about it, but i'll post a few bullet points of things to consider when claiming their record would be better without Kobe:

-Dwight would get the load of touches, but without the proper facilitating he isn't capable of constantly creating his own shots throughout a game.
-Dwight cant make free throws, he's not your go-to guy in the 4th quarter...unless you wanna see a bunch of bricked FT's which will ruin the flow of their game.
-Nash was injured for pretty much half the season, and the other half hes been the same shooter hes always been...but even SLOWER than usual on defense especially transition D.
-Pau was pretty much injured half the season.
-Jordan Hill is out
-Steve Blake was out for 25 games or so.

So for a majority of the season your starting line-up would be:

PG- STEVE BLAKE/DARIUS MORRIS
SG- JODIE MEEKS
SF- METTA WORLD PEACE
PF- EARL CLARK
C - DWIGHT HOWARD.

Now just take a long, hard look at that....82 games, of THAT.
You think MDA's system will flourish better with just THEM and not with Kobe?

You think that after 82 games, with a MAJORITY of them having that starting line-up...the Los Angeles Lakers would have more than 42 wins? You think they would have 50 wins with Jodie Meeks as the go-to guard?

I just want you to let that sink in a little, sleep on it, then come back later and let me know if you still stand by your comment.
If you do, alright...we'll drop it and move on.
But think about it man, you really think Dwight with a bad back half the season and a lack of post-moves to begin with, plus bad free throw shooting, was going to carry that squad to 45-50 wins?

That's all im sayin.

you really think the lakers would have a better record WITHOUT kobe?

dantoni could implement a better offense without kobe? he would be able to do this without an offseason and training camp?

not playing with kobe wont improve dwights willingness and ability to play the pick and roll with nash

not playing with kobe wont keep pau gasol, steve nash, steve blake, and jordan hill off the injury list for long periods of time.

you're gonna have jodie meeks out there as your starting SG? or are you going to run a steve nash and steve blake backcourt with duhon/morris and meeks backing them up?

and thats just the offensive side of things.

not playing with kobe wont improve the team's defense either, which is the biggest fault of this team.

kobe has his faults, but to say the lakers would have a better record without kobe? no. i don't think so.

edit: LTB beat me to it

That's ridiculous. And it's not because it's Kobe Bryant. It's because the rest of the team has been lackadasical, disinterested, or injured at one point or another.

Take Kobe off the team - the one guy who has played at a high level through it all - and then you've got a team where Dwight Howard was injured and/or not eem caring for a good stretch, Pau Gasol camped out at the three + injured + BENCHED, Steve Nash injured on and off, D'Antoni shuffling everyone's roles to the point where they don't know what to do. That team would still be under .500 at least.

The Lakers season has been a mess and Kobe's play is a huge reason why they might almost survive it.

You guys are all right, I really didnt think this though well enough. I take it back.

 

[flyerthandelta]

For that comment Antidope has taken over DBD spot!!!!! THE ULTIMATE TROLL. Like who says stuff like that you high?!?!

 

[big j 33]

For that comment Antidope has taken over DBD spot!!!!! THE ULTIMATE TROLL. Like who says stuff like that you high?!?!

 

[denni5themenace]

i definitely think james harden should be an MVP candidate.

i really HATE the way they give they give that award out. best player on the best team? i guess it makes sense, but the best TEAM doesn't always have just one individual player being the catalyst for their team's success.

with all that said, lebron is the clear winner.

 

[darthska]

Both teams played hard.

 

[flyerthandelta]

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[antidope]

i definitely think james harden should be an MVP candidate.

i really HATE the way they give they give that award out. best player on the best team? i guess it makes sense, but the best TEAM doesn't always have just one individual player being the catalyst for their team's success.

with all that said, lebron is the clear winner.

The basis for my entire argument. It will never change so I guess theres no point in even challenging it.

 

[quik1987]

So with that said James Harden is the best player on the better team and James Harden still > Kobe in the MVP race

 

[lawdog1]

So with that said James Harden is the best player on the better team and James Harden still > Kobe in the MVP race

I don't recall seeing anyone else say that Kobe is or should be a top MVP candidate.

 

[flyerthandelta]

I honestly think the Lakers would do fine without Kobe.

A Lakers team where Pau is injured a third of the season, a 39 year old Nash is injured a third of the season, and Dwight bricking half his free throws, coached by MDA would be fine right now without Kobe?

Good one brah

"I honestly think the Lakers would do fine without Kobe."


Define fine.

This.

Theyd have a better record than what they currently have, dead serious( I like Kobe and have 0 issues with him whatsoever)

They need to just start giving out the award the right way once it stops belonging to LeBron and actually give it to the most valuable player. You guys remeber the year when D Wade basically was the Heat(think it was 09-10 season) and he got hurt and they became the worst team in the league? He should have won MVP this year. This award really needs to start going to the actual most valuable player on a team. If James Harden wasnt there, that team wouldnt even be sniffing the playoffs, he deserves second place. He is willing that team to the playoffs single handely. If I could pick MVP it would go


1.LeBron

2.Harden

3.Parker

4.Gasol

5.Curry

6.Durant

7.Westbrook

8.Paul

9.Duncan

10.Anthony


I couldnt care less about concept of being the best player on the best team, MVP should go to the guy who if he was not there the team would fall apart along with whos individual contribution adds the most value to their team.

So based on your definition of the award, if Lebron wasn't on the heat, the team would fall apart?

The 'most valuable' argument in that sense still doesn't hold up.


It's like the Tom Brady/Matt Cassell arguments. Just because a team would still be decent (down from great) without their star doesn't make that star less valuable than a star on a decent team turning into a bad team without him.


What's Harden worth to the Rockets? 15-20 wins? I think they could still find their way to 25-30 wins without him. Knicks probably drop to a 35 win team without Melo. Lakers probably win 25-30 without Kobe?


So in that sense, is LeBron not worth 15 wins and the clear difference between a contending team and a middling playoff team? Is Durant not worth 15-20 wins and the difference between title contender and 6-8th seed?

MVP should go to the best player in the league.

James Harden isn't the 2nd best player in the league. The problem with the "If that player wasn't there, how good would the team be" is it's too much of a hypothetical. The only way you can know for sure is if the player misses significant time, then returns... or gets hurt at the end of a season and the team collapses. Other than that, we're just assuming how a team might look if they miss their best player. 

Wade in 09 isn't the same as Harden this season. Wade's numbers were damn near equal to Lebron's, short of of couple rebounds. Harden deserves tons of praise for what he's doing, but like Al3xis said... just because the Rockets wouldn't be a playoff team without Harden, doesn't make him more valuable than Durant or Kobe. Even if they replaced KD with an average player, a Russ lead OKC team would not be as good. They'd still be in the playoffs at a good seed, but likely not contending for a championship. So how do you compare KD's value to Harden's in that case? Both teams wouldn't be as good... but one wouldn't be in the playoffs so that guy is more valuable?

It seems like it would be going to players on fringe playoff teams, rather than the best. 

The teams second best player is Chandler Parsons and theyre in the playoffs

 

[flyerthandelta]

I honestly think the Lakers would do fine without Kobe.

A Lakers team where Pau is injured a third of the season, a 39 year old Nash is injured a third of the season, and Dwight bricking half his free throws, coached by MDA would be fine right now without Kobe?

Good one brah

"I honestly think the Lakers would do fine without Kobe."


Define fine.

This.

Theyd have a better record than what they currently have, dead serious( I like Kobe and have 0 issues with him whatsoever)

They need to just start giving out the award the right way once it stops belonging to LeBron and actually give it to the most valuable player. You guys remeber the year when D Wade basically was the Heat(think it was 09-10 season) and he got hurt and they became the worst team in the league? He should have won MVP this year. This award really needs to start going to the actual most valuable player on a team. If James Harden wasnt there, that team wouldnt even be sniffing the playoffs, he deserves second place. He is willing that team to the playoffs single handely. If I could pick MVP it would go


1.LeBron

2.Harden

3.Parker

4.Gasol

5.Curry

6.Durant

7.Westbrook

8.Paul

9.Duncan

10.Anthony


I couldnt care less about concept of being the best player on the best team, MVP should go to the guy who if he was not there the team would fall apart along with whos individual contribution adds the most value to their team.

So based on your definition of the award, if Lebron wasn't on the heat, the team would fall apart?

The 'most valuable' argument in that sense still doesn't hold up.


It's like the Tom Brady/Matt Cassell arguments. Just because a team would still be decent (down from great) without their star doesn't make that star less valuable than a star on a decent team turning into a bad team without him.


What's Harden worth to the Rockets? 15-20 wins? I think they could still find their way to 25-30 wins without him. Knicks probably drop to a 35 win team without Melo. Lakers probably win 25-30 without Kobe?


So in that sense, is LeBron not worth 15 wins and the clear difference between a contending team and a middling playoff team? Is Durant not worth 15-20 wins and the difference between title contender and 6-8th seed?

MVP should go to the best player in the league.

James Harden isn't the 2nd best player in the league. The problem with the "If that player wasn't there, how good would the team be" is it's too much of a hypothetical. The only way you can know for sure is if the player misses significant time, then returns... or gets hurt at the end of a season and the team collapses. Other than that, we're just assuming how a team might look if they miss their best player. 

Wade in 09 isn't the same as Harden this season. Wade's numbers were damn near equal to Lebron's, short of of couple rebounds. Harden deserves tons of praise for what he's doing, but like Al3xis said... just because the Rockets wouldn't be a playoff team without Harden, doesn't make him more valuable than Durant or Kobe. Even if they replaced KD with an average player, a Russ lead OKC team would not be as good. They'd still be in the playoffs at a good seed, but likely not contending for a championship. So how do you compare KD's value to Harden's in that case? Both teams wouldn't be as good... but one wouldn't be in the playoffs so that guy is more valuable?

It seems like it would be going to players on fringe playoff teams, rather than the best. 

The teams second best player is Chandler Parsons and theyre in the playoffs

 

[quik1987]

So with that said James Harden is the best player on the better team and James Harden still > Kobe in the MVP race

I don't recall seeing anyone else say that Kobe is or should be a top MVP candidate.

James Harden > Kobe in the MVP race

Harden def top 5

Lebron
Durant
Carmelo
CP3
Harden
Parker

Lol How....hes 5th in ppg behind kobe and Lebron and his team is 6th or 7th in the West

I also hear plenty MVP chants when Kobe shoots free throws

 

[japanair21]

Not interesting for a team like the Thunder who is trying to be in win now mode and already has 2 rookies and 2 sophomores who never play and 1 who just broke into the rotation 2 months ago. And I am pretty sure we own the Mavs pick next year although it is protected til 2018 so another terrible pick, like #19, in a bad draft all because our owners are cheap and equally or more concerned with profit than winning

Uhh. Mavs aren't making the playoffs man,

It's our pick this year. It's top-20 protected until 2018 I believe.

 

[flyerthandelta]

 

[mez 0ne]

Without kobe the lakers would pretty much be where they are at now.

NT is unbearable at times, jesus christ.

 

[antidope]

Moving on I meant to ask yesterday but I forgot, does anyone have a good site to set up some sort of playoff bracket challenge. Last year we did it right here on NT in a thread which went well but I would be down to set one up elsewhere and create some sort of pot for it. Anyone want too?

PLS RESPOND

 

[datznasty]

Not interesting for a team like the Thunder who is trying to be in win now mode and already has 2 rookies and 2 sophomores who never play and 1 who just broke into the rotation 2 months ago. And I am pretty sure we own the Mavs pick next year although it is protected til 2018 so another terrible pick, like #19, in a bad draft all because our owners are cheap and equally or more concerned with profit than winning

Uhh. Mavs aren't making the playoffs man,

It's our pick this year. It's top-20 protected until 2018 I believe.

What are the terms on that pick again? I thought it just had to fall like 15 to 20. Doesn't matter, whoever we draft isn't going to play anyways which is why I don't get us stockpiling all these 2013 draft picks like they're bottled water and Armageddon is coming, in such a weak draft.

 

[ill steelo]

I know right.

So Dirk was the best player in the world in 07-08?

'


You mean 06-07 when he won the MVP.

yes he was the best player.

Is he the only MVP in history that lost in the first round & thus was eliminated from the playoffs before he accepted the award?

 

[grandtheftbike]

Moving on I meant to ask yesterday but I forgot, does anyone have a good site to set up some sort of playoff bracket challenge. Last year we did it right here on NT in a thread which went well but I would be down to set one up elsewhere and create some sort of pot for it. Anyone want too?

PLS RESPOND

in

 

[IATT]

What are the terms on that pick again? I thought it just had to fall like 15 to 20. Doesn't matter, whoever we draft isn't going to play anyways which is why I don't get us stockpiling all these 2013 draft picks like they're bottled water and Armageddon is coming, in such a weak draft.

Top 20 protected in 2013

Top 20 protected in 2014

Top 20 protected in 2015

Top 20 protected in 2016

Top 20 protected in 2017

and unprotected in the 2018 Draft

and:

Via Berry Tramel, Durant would have to miss 23 straight shots, 13 straight 3s and six straight foul shots to miss 50-40-90.

 

[IATT]

does LA have to forfeit a 2nd round pick to philly?!

 

[japanair21]

Top 20 protected in 2013
Top 20 protected in 2014
Top 20 protected in 2015
Top 20 protected in 2016
Top 20 protected in 2017
and unprotected in the 2018 Draft




and:
Via Berry Tramel, Durant would have to miss 23 straight shots, 13 straight 3s and six straight foul shots to miss 50-40-90.

That's exactly what I thought it was.

 

[flyerthandelta]

ESPN Stats & Info [emoji]10004[/emoji] @ESPNStatsInfo

Via @eliassports Kobe Bryant is the 1st player with at least 47 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks and 3 steals in an NBA game.
4:52 AM - 11 Apr 13

 

[sooperhooper]

When cp didn't receive mvp last year, I knew for a fact that it's based mainly off of favoritism. This man led the Clippers to the playoffs. It's common sense that he deserves it.