Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The only issue with this is that Goku being in God form is supposed to be a form of Super Saiyan itself. It's in the name. They should have just called it "Super Saiyan God 2" or something like that.

Fair point. I kinda took it as a branched transformation type thing if that makes sense. Just because it's an entirely different form of ki that he is using in these transformations.

 

[norwaydre]

Gokus blue hair isn't necessarily a new form. It's him going super sayain while being in God form. Must be something to do with the god aura/ki. As for freiza, considering the back story behind this movie, is a new form really that far fetched?

I havea lot of issues with dragonball z, most of them center around the plot and story. But when someone gets a new form or transformation or gets anew ability people seem to have more problems with that than something like Vegeta suddenly having a brother.

I don't necessarily know the whole back story to this movie but its fine if he's got a new form...but lets be more original than giving freiza a gold tint thats clearly a knockoff of a super saiyan?

Besides we've already seen Frieza get washed several times, couldn't they come up with a new, original enemy?

I'm all for new forms/transformations but for AT to say he didnt want more transformations after we get Super Saiyan God and then in the next movie have a blue haired super saiyan god goku is just odd to me

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Yea or Bardock being the legendary ssj.

Well this was never really confined though. All we know is that the reason freiza knows about super sayains is because of the story passed down from his ancestors. Doesn't mean that the legendary super sayain is Bardock who is super sayain in that particular legend. If that makes sense

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

I don't necessarily know the whole back story to this movie but its fine if he's got a new form...but lets be more original than giving freiza a gold tint thats clearly a knockoff of a super saiyan?

Besides we've already seen Frieza get washed several times, couldn't they come up with a new, original enemy?


I'm all for new forms/transformations but for AT to say he didnt want more transformations after we get Super Saiyan God and then in the next movie have a blue haired super saiyan god goku is just odd to me

He never said there would be no new transformations. In that interview he only said that we probably wouldn't see goku transform past super sayain anymore. The reason being is that ssj2 and ssj3 are just further manifestations of the original super sayain form. So by mastering his base and ssj1 form he can achieve ssj2 and ssj3 levels of power without the transformations and suffering from the in creased level of ki draining that is associated with those transformations. Kinda like how mystic Gohan doesn't need to go super sayain anymore to tap into all of his power.

 

[godry]

Well this was never really confined though. All we know is that the reason freiza knows about super sayains is because of the story passed down from his ancestors. Doesn't mean that the legendary super sayain is Bardock who is super sayain in that particular legend. If that makes sense

It was more of him going back in time and becoming a super saiyan that irked me rather than him being the legendary one.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The only issue with this is that Goku being in God form is supposed to be a form of Super Saiyan itself. It's in the name. They should have just called it "Super Saiyan God 2" or something like that.

What I really don't like is how the movie/manga explains away How Gohan went from being the most powerful being on earth at the end of DBZ to this in the beginning of this movie.

View media item 1499877

 

[jays25]

Gohan's such a disappointment, but at the same time I can't be mad at that excuse, as it was the exact same reason he fell behind after the Cell Saga: An immense lack of training, despite the fact that he knowingly lives in a world that is constantly filled with dangers, and has been since before he was ever born.

Seems like the series has really gone down hill since the end of the Buu saga...I still remember Wednesdays being the longest day of the week when I was younger because all I wanted to do was catch the newest episode of DBZ on Toonami.

Since the Buu Saga? LOL the Buu Saga's when it started going downhill. It's just worse now because the series continued on through movies that none of us expected.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Gohan's such a disappointment, but at the same time I can't be mad at that excuse, as it was the exact same reason he fell behind after the Cell Saga: An immense lack of training, despite the fact that he knowingly lives in a world that is constantly filled with dangers, and has been since before he was ever born.

I don't buy it. Gohan was mystic Gohan at the end of DBZ. The strongest character after vegito. This movie takes place after buu but before the last episode of DBZ and the appearance of uub. Gohan power decrease makes much less sense that Freizas power boost. Freiza states that Goku could have handled his entire army with ease. When was the last time Freiza had any idea of gokus strength? Mystic Gohan was stronger than every form form Of goku in Dragonball z especially at the point on namek and when he was killed by trunks. 4-5 years of not training doesn't just wipe away the leaps and bounds Gohan has come in terms of strength and skill.

 

[jays25]

Gohan's such a disappointment, but at the same time I can't be mad at that excuse, as it was the exact same reason he fell behind after the Cell Saga: An immense lack of training, despite the fact that he knowingly lives in a world that is constantly filled with dangers, and has been since before he was ever born.

I don't buy it. Gohan was mystic Gohan at the end of DBZ. The strongest character after vegito. This movie takes place after buu but before the last episode of DBZ and the appearance of uub. Gohan power decrease makes much less sense that Freizas power boost. Freiza states that Goku could have handled his entire army with ease. When was the last time Freiza had any idea of gokus strength? Mystic Gohan was stronger than every form form Of goku in Dragonball z especially at the point on namek and when he was killed by trunks. 4-5 years of not training doesn't just wipe away the leaps and bounds Gohan has come in terms of strength and skill.

And the time between the end of the buu saga and the end of Z is ten years, more than the 7 years that passed between the end of the Cell Saga and the start of the Buu Saga. There's really no indication anywhere within the last few chapters/episodes as to who's the strongest Z fighter anymore in that timespan.

No he didn't, Freiza stated that about Gohan:

View media item 1499984
Making it clear that regardless of whatever lack of training Gohan's character has suffered, he's still leagues beyond the other Z fighters, minus his father and Vegeta.

7 years of not training led to Buu Saga SS2 Gohan being weaker than Cell Saga SS2 Gohan, so i'd say a drop in strength is already more than justified. However, as I just pointed out he's still beyond everyone else minuts his father and Vegeta, who as of this film have gained two new transformations, to further justify Gohan no longer being the strongest.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

And the time between the end of the buu saga and the end of Z is ten years, more than the 7 years that passed between the end of the Cell Saga and the start of the Buu Saga. There's really no indication anywhere within the last few chapters/episodes as to who's the strongest Z fighter anymore in that timespan.

No he didn't, Freiza stated that about Gohan:

View media item 1499984
Making it clear that regardless of whatever lack of training Gohan's character has suffered, he's still leagues beyond the other Z fighters, minus his father and Vegeta.

7 years of not training led to Buu Saga SS2 Gohan being weaker than Cell Saga SS2 Gohan, so i'd say a drop in strength is already more than justified. However, as I just pointed out he's still beyond everyone else minuts his father and Vegeta, who as of this film have gained two new transformations, to further justify Gohan no longer being the strongest.

My bad I read "son of son goku" as just "son goku" lol but even considering the time between cell and buu, Mystic Gohan, which is Gohan in his strongest form Happened towards the end of the buu saga. Mystic Gohan who is strong get than super buu, super sayain 3 gotenks and super sayain 3 goku, if I am not mistaken. Meaning Gohan was magnitudes stronger than 99% of anyone who appeared in DBZ. And now he's reverted to going back to super sayain? To the point where he's not even sure he can transform? And he mentioned immediately that he couldn't take on freiza in his first form. That just doesn't add up. It looks like Akira Toriyama has taken the GT Gohan and put him into the story and completely forgot about mystic Gohan even existing.

 

[jays25]

My bad I read "son of son goku" as just "son goku" lol but even considering the time between cell and buu, Mystic Gohan, which is Gohan in his strongest form Happened towards the end of the buu saga. Mystic Gohan who is strong get than super buu, super sayain 3 gotenks and super sayain 3 goku, if I am not mistaken. Meaning Gohan was magnitudes stronger than 99% of anyone who appeared in DBZ. And now he's reverted to going back to super sayain? To the point where he's not even sure he can transform? And he mentioned immediately that he couldn't take on freiza in his first form. That just doesn't add up. It looks like Akira Toriyama has taken the GT Gohan and put him into the story and completely forgot about mystic Gohan even existing.

From my understanding/interpretation, the Mystic Form was a permanent transformation/powerup that put Gohan beyond a SS3 at his base level. Any further transformation therefore only adds onto that, thereby you have him not knowing for certain whether he can still use SS1 or SS2 (Why that's a question when he did it in the last film now is another thing entirely) after the Buu Saga, as he hasn't done it since then.

 

[Top Boy]

 

My bad I read "son of son goku" as just "son goku" lol but even considering the time between cell and buu, Mystic Gohan, which is Gohan in his strongest form Happened towards the end of the buu saga. Mystic Gohan who is strong get than super buu, super sayain 3 gotenks and super sayain 3 goku, if I am not mistaken. Meaning Gohan was magnitudes stronger than 99% of anyone who appeared in DBZ. And now he's reverted to going back to super sayain? To the point where he's not even sure he can transform? And he mentioned immediately that he couldn't take on freiza in his first form. That just doesn't add up. It looks like Akira Toriyama has taken the GT Gohan and put him into the story and completely forgot about mystic Gohan even existing.

From my understanding/interpretation, the Mystic Form was a permanent transformation/powerup that put Gohan beyond a SS3 at his base level. Any further transformation therefore only adds onto that, thereby you have him not knowing for certain whether he can still use SS1 or SS2 (Why that's a question when he did it in the last film now is another thing entirely) after the Buu Saga, as he hasn't done it since then.

The way it was described as I read it was what you said at the beginning, an ascended transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. If memory served correct he wasn't suppose to go Super Saiyan anymore as it would not multiply his base, which is his resting form that was boosted to ^SS3 levels.

The nerf is weak. I remember a debate about if they had Gohan going super saiyan in this movie, they ended up doing it

 

[jays25]

The way it was described as I read it was what you said at the beginning, an ascended transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. If memory served correct he wasn't suppose to go Super Saiyan anymore as it would not multiply his base, which is his resting form that was boosted to ^SS3 levels.

The nerf is weak. I remember a debate about if they had Gohan going super saiyan in this movie, they ended up doing it

Well very little about the Mystic form was ever explained within the story, but this is what I know:

View media item 1500030
It's stated that to attain it Gohan had to powerup as if he was going SS. Goku then states that its amazing as he still looks completely normal, yet at the same time wonders if Gohan could surpass his current form further still. Which I always took to mean as him wondering what'd happen if Gohan then used SS or SS2. I also never really got the sense that those forms were lost to Gohan forever either.

 

[silverbackhoney]

Gohan has been disrespected since day 1 guys.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Well very little about the Mystic form was ever explained within the story, but this is what I know:

View media item 1500030
It's stated that to attain it Gohan had to powerup as if he was going SS. Goku then states that its amazing as he still looks completely normal, yet at the same time wonders if Gohan could surpass his current form further still. Which I always took to mean as him wondering what'd happen if Gohan then used SS or SS2. I also never really got the sense that those forms were lost to Gohan forever either.

I don't think that's how it worked. It's not that the forms were lost to him, it's that they became unnecessary. Becoming ssj2 and ssj3 bumps up your power level but it also increases the rate at which ki is consumed. Mystic Gohan having his power unlocked allowed him to by pass needing to transform. He got all of the power and none of the drawbacks

 

[jays25]

I don't think that's how it worked. It's not that the forms were lost to him, it's that they became unnecessary. Becoming ssj2 and ssj3 bumps up your power level but it also increases the rate at which ki is consumed. Mystic Gohan having his power unlocked allowed him to by pass needing to transform. He got all of the power and none of the drawbacks

*shrug* I'm showing you what's actually in the manga, and not going off of any further speculation.

However, what you're saying is the same thing that happened when Goku and Gohan mastered the SS form originally, but the SS2 and SS3 forms still existed, by which they could gain further power, but in terms of the last one would have Ki drained at rapid rates. (That was never noted to be a drawback of the SS2 from my memory. That state was noted as being superior to the first in every way, the true next stage)There's nothing to say that any form makes one irrelevant entirely, especially as Mystic isn't an SS transformation to begin with. Seeing as he's one of the few who mastered SS anyways, he wouldn't suffer any drawbacks from that stage. Just like his father he's able to remain in it for days and be completely relaxed. Mystic was again never stated to be replacing anything. All Old Kai said was that Gohan had to activate it in the same way he did SS. After that he was then in the form and that was that. No one ever mentioned "Gohan can't go SS anymore" or that "Gohan's at the peak of his power". That's all fan theory. So I again see no reason why he wouldn't be able to increase his power further with his SS transformations, when Mystic was a powerup to his normal state (Just like that powerup he gained while on Namek)

 

[goldmember]

Wasn't mystic gohan in BOG?

What's the time difference between BOG and revival of frieza? maybe 1-3 years?

They just turn him into one of the " z fighters " fighting some damn soldiers SMH

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

*shrug* I'm showing you what's actually in the manga, and not going off of any further speculation.

However, what you're saying is the same thing that happened when Goku and Gohan mastered the SS form originally, but the SS2 and SS3 forms still existed, by which they could gain further power, but in terms of the last one would have Ki drained at rapid rates. (That was never noted to be a drawback of the SS2 from my memory. That state was noted as being superior to the first in every way, the true next stage)There's nothing to say that any form makes one irrelevant entirely, especially as Mystic isn't an SS transformation to begin with. Seeing as he's one of the few who mastered SS anyways, he wouldn't suffer any drawbacks from that stage. Just like his father he's able to remain in it for days and be completely relaxed. Mystic was again never stated to be replacing anything. All Old Kai said was that Gohan had to activate it in the same way he did SS. After that he was then in the form and that was that. No one ever mentioned "Gohan can't go SS anymore" or that "Gohan's at the peak of his power". That's all fan theory. So I again see no reason why he wouldn't be able to increase his power further with his SS transformations, when Mystic was a powerup to his normal state (Just like that powerup he gained while on Namek)

The manga doesn't describe Gohans power boost but doesn't it describe the ability old kai used to get him there. A technique that unlocks the full power of some one he uses it on. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[jays25]

*shrug* I'm showing you what's actually in the manga, and not going off of any further speculation.

However, what you're saying is the same thing that happened when Goku and Gohan mastered the SS form originally, but the SS2 and SS3 forms still existed, by which they could gain further power, but in terms of the last one would have Ki drained at rapid rates. (That was never noted to be a drawback of the SS2 from my memory. That state was noted as being superior to the first in every way, the true next stage)There's nothing to say that any form makes one irrelevant entirely, especially as Mystic isn't an SS transformation to begin with. Seeing as he's one of the few who mastered SS anyways, he wouldn't suffer any drawbacks from that stage. Just like his father he's able to remain in it for days and be completely relaxed. Mystic was again never stated to be replacing anything. All Old Kai said was that Gohan had to activate it in the same way he did SS. After that he was then in the form and that was that. No one ever mentioned "Gohan can't go SS anymore" or that "Gohan's at the peak of his power". That's all fan theory. So I again see no reason why he wouldn't be able to increase his power further with his SS transformations, when Mystic was a powerup to his normal state (Just like that powerup he gained while on Namek)

The manga doesn't describe Gohans power boost but doesn't it describe the ability old kai used to get him there. A technique that unlocks the full power of some one he uses it on. Correct me if I'm wrong

View media item 1500130

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

View media item 1500130

Is that the official translation or fan translation?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Kai's_Unlock_Ability

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

KingdomFlatbush is pretty knowledgeable in the original translation. I want to see what's his take on this. Every where I've looked seems to lead towards the description of Gohans full power being unlocked.

 

[jays25]

View media item 1500130

Is that the official translation or fan translation?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Kai's_Unlock_Ability

That's from mangapanda, ch 480 pg 10.

You're free to look it up on whatever site you personally use.

(By and by, the wiki also states that Gohan is able to use SS and SS2 with his Mystic Powerup applied, so if that's the source you're using, then even that doesn't agree with what it is you're saying.)

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

The whole idea to me is that SSJ for Gohan was completely unnecessary since he was drawing out all potential power in his Mystic form.

The original translation goes something like this:

"How do I become the strongest fighter?"

"Oh, you just do what you do when become that Super-whatsit."

"Like a Super Saiyan, huh?"

HAAAAAA

And then he's Mystic Gohan. Basically it's the same as in those bootleg manga panels. The key is that the Elder Kaioshin describes the process as like becoming Super Saiyan--meaning this could mean that Gohan simply has to "power up".

The debate lies in whether or not this is considered a transformation, or if he was just "unlocking" all of the power that Elder Kaioshin brought to the surface for him.

I've always been under the idea that Gohan COULD go SSJ, but it would literally be a waste of Ki, just like Vegeta, Trunks and Goku going Super Saiyan Advanced 1 and 2 is a waste of Ki.

I think this theory is corroborated by BOG. Gohan went SSJ in order to turn Goku into a God, but when fighting Beerus he simply powered up in his normal state.

SSJ is an obsolete transformation to Gohan in the same way that Toriyama describes SSJ2 and SSJ3 as obsolete for Goku and Vegeta.

Or at least it was. Now this movie comes out and Gohan is turning SSJ to fight Frieza's soldiers

.

I'm going to agree with Jays and assume that Gohan simply got weaker, and his base form likely does not have the potency it did against Buu. That doesn't mean he's no longer "Mystic", just that he got soft the same way he did after Cell.

P.S. THE WIKI IS TRASH. NEVER REFERENCE IT IN A DEBATE

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

That's from mangapanda, ch 480 pg 10.

You're free to look it up on whatever site you personally use.

(By and by, the wiki also states that Gohan is able to use SS and SS2 with his Mystic Powerup applied, so if that's the source you're using, then even that doesn't agree with what it is you're saying.)

Yeah I'm familiar with managa panda it's just that fan translations often mistranslate the original text. Not that I'm saying it's wrong I just want to see an official source cause of the conflicting Info online. And my interpretation doesn't say that he can't transform anymore, just that it wasn't needed anymore because he already achieved max power. Same concept applies to how Toriyama said goku does t need to go ssj2 or ssj3 anymore if he completely masters his base and ssj1 forms.

 

[hypebeast5]

The amount of inconsistency in the story is mind boggling

Mystic gohan probably the biggest enigma of a recurring character, the amount of vegeta disrespect, theres really a crazy amount of things