Now that bryant has been quoted and recorded speaking on his level of play vs MJ's...

[ill steelo]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

At this point, can you agree we're being pretty nitpicky? Is Jordan superior in some facets? Yes. Is Kobe superior in some facets? Yes. Are they easily the 2 most complete and dominant swingmen to ever play the game? You'd be hard pressed to disagree. Now the tough question, is Kobe at his prime better than MJ in his prime? I mean we can do Kobe's 9 straight 40 point games, 81 point game etc....that Kobe was doing things the league had never seen, with one of the worst supporting casts a legend has ever been surrounded by. We often forget how dirty prime Kobe was because his teams were so bad but that Kobe couldn't be stopped in any era, same with MJ during the first three peat. 
You do know your stuff though.

I appreciate it. You're knowledgeable as well. We'll agree to disagree.

And yeah, I guess we are nitpicking

.

As far as primes go, they're both tied @ 9 for consecutive 40 pointers. Kobe did have that 81 pointer which I would struggle to match on a video game. People don't realize how ridiculous that performance was. But I still have to give Jordan the edge because of his prolific postseason performances. He had 4 consecutive 40 point games in the Finals, his series against LAL in '91 was better than any kobe series (31 11 ast nearly 7 rebounds & 3 steals on 56% shooting), dude even had 9 consecutive 30 point games in the finals, and even though it was before his prime, he has the highest scoring playoff game in NBA history. And it came against the best defensive team in the league that year.

I gotta give it to MJ

 

[iamjusayn]

Originally Posted by SneakerHeathen

Originally Posted by Iamjusayn

Originally Posted by kc24688

Though I was too young to watch Jordan I think it is probably correct to say that Kobe has more ways to score on offense, more than maybe anyone of all time, and that's what makes him so special. He worked very hard to earn this praise in my opinion. However, I think Jordan gets the edge based on his attitude that helped him play d and will his team to victories. Kind of like intangibles..  I think Wade is a better comparison to Jordan.

As soon as I read this in bold I could not fathom reading anymore....


SneakerHeathen wrote:

---

Kobe is my dude and I'm a Laker fan but. Jordan is the greatest NBA player who has ever lived.

So what? Neither were ever completely original. One day there will be kids that'll be borrowing from Kobe and LBJ, so what? Doesn't take one thing away from anyone's legacy.....



Just think about it fellas, one day there will be a kid just like LeBron, I mean it'll be mind boggling how much he'll play like him. He'll quit in the fourth quarter just like him too.

^ Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in bold esp if #8 got all his moves from MJ 

You sound foolish. I was trying to say that Jordan took elements of somebody's game as well (I bet you've never even watched an old Julius Erving game) and that everyone borrow's from their predecessors. Kobe borrowed A LOT from Jordan true, just like Jordan borrowed A LOT from Erving and Skywalker Thompson.

Secondly if you're going to dismiss something someone says at least have some sort substance to your retort other than "derp that's not true".

Dr. J 

 man please, with that argument! It does not work. You are really trying to compare what few Dunk and dipsy doo moves MJ mirrored from the Doc and then took that lil bit to the next level to bryant emulating MJ's whole game, persona, gum chewing, mannerisms, etc etc? 

 I'm done with you

 

[rolaholic]

Originally Posted by xsalvioutlawx

lol @ MJ stans. MJ don't even like black people, word to chamillionaire.

,What does ones views or personal life have to do with their skill and abilities on the court? Kobe might be a rapist,does that make him any less of a player? Hilarious when people use arguments away from the topic being discussed to make their point.

Sure he's probably a douche in real life but that doesn't stop the fact that he's the greatest player to ever step on the court.

 

[deuce king]

At the end of the day Kobe Bryant is and will forever be a very distant second to Jordan.  They really don't even deserve to be in the same sentence unless we're talking about Kobe copying Jordan's moves and style bit by bit.  That's not to say Kobe isn't a great player because he is of course, I don't think anybody should and will take that away from him.  However, the thing that alot of the Kobe lovers on here fail to realize or don't want to realize is that Jordan NEVER played the role of Robin, Vice President, second in command or second fiddle, whatever you want to call it to any teammate.............EVER.  We can't say the same thing about Kobe.  Also, when watching Jordan play we see Jordan, he has/had his own unique style.  When we see Kobe play it's "monkey see, monkey do".

 

[jasongilmore]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So in other words you don't have an answer? Just say that instead of belittling the though of Kobe being compared to him, as if he is Ben Uzoh or somebody.

Player Efficiency Rating

2000-01 NBA 24.5 (6)
2001-02 NBA 23.2 (8 )
2002-03 NBA 26.2 (5)
2003-04 NBA 23.7 (5)
2004-05 NBA 23.3 (7)
2005-06 NBA 28.0 (3)
2006-07 NBA 26.1 (3)
2007-08 NBA 24.2 (8 )
2008-09 NBA 24.4 (6)
2010-11 NBA 23.9 (5)


1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)

And if you don't like "advanced stats", tell me what you want to compare. There's no comparison in any category that reflects individual greatness. Absolutely none.

I saw this and immediately skipped the remaining pages.. This thread is done... If you don't mind Hank Moody, I'm going to print this out and carry it with me. This will end all discussions in the future with people that can honestly argue the point that Kobe is better than MJ. I was a die hard MJ fan (watched all of his games since 88, and then later watched all the games before that.) and now I am a Kobe Bryant fan. I was annoyed with the young rookie who took all of MJ's mannerisms. I hated him until he showed that he was strong enough to re-bound from his airballs in Utah. He gained my respect when he displayed the attitude and determination that helped to make him the player he is today. You know how arrogant you have to be to take those shots with a player like Shaq in the lineup? He's the best I have seen since Jordan. That being said, in their primes, if they were to have the hypothetical 1 on 1 matchup MJ would've killed Kobe.  Kobe has beaten all the supposed  "Kobe stoppers" But Andrei Kirilenko, and Ruben Patterson are not in the same universe defensively as MJ.The only area in which Kobe might have an advantage would be long distance shooting. MJ was faster could jump higher and played better defense.
This argument aside, Kobe said what he was supposed to, even if he doesn't really believe it. I can say one thing, watching early MJ videos and watching  KB when he was younger , I was shaking my head wondering how MJ did certain things a lot more than when I was when watching Kobe.
  

 

[omarsok]

boston fan chiming in......


Lenny > MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sohe Kryin ratface


/thread

 

[akajae]

Originally Posted by OmarsOK

boston fan chiming in......


Lenny > MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sohe Kryin ratface


/thread

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by jasongilmore

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So in other words you don't have an answer? Just say that instead of belittling the though of Kobe being compared to him, as if he is Ben Uzoh or somebody.

Player Efficiency Rating

2000-01 NBA 24.5 (6)
2001-02 NBA 23.2 (8 )
2002-03 NBA 26.2 (5)
2003-04 NBA 23.7 (5)
2004-05 NBA 23.3 (7)
2005-06 NBA 28.0 (3)
2006-07 NBA 26.1 (3)
2007-08 NBA 24.2 (8 )
2008-09 NBA 24.4 (6)
2010-11 NBA 23.9 (5)


1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)

And if you don't like "advanced stats", tell me what you want to compare. There's no comparison in any category that reflects individual greatness. Absolutely none.

I saw this and immediately skipped the remaining pages.. This thread is done... If you don't mind Hank Moody, I'm going to print this out and carry it with me. This will end all discussions in the future with people that can honestly argue the point that Kobe is better than MJ. I was a die hard MJ fan (watched all of his games since 88, and then later watched all the games before that.) and now I am a Kobe Bryant fan. I was annoyed with the young rookie who took all of MJ's mannerisms. I hated him until he showed that he was strong enough to re-bound from his airballs in Utah. He gained my respect when he displayed the attitude and determination that helped to make him the player he is today. You know how arrogant you have to be to take those shots with a player like Shaq in the lineup? He's the best I have seen since Jordan. That being said, in their primes, if they were to have the hypothetical 1 on 1 matchup MJ would've killed Kobe.  Kobe has beaten all the supposed  "Kobe stoppers" But Andrei Kirilenko, and Ruben Patterson are not in the same universe defensively as MJ.The only area in which Kobe might have an advantage would be long distance shooting. MJ was faster could jump higher and played better defense.
This argument aside, Kobe said what he was supposed to, even if he doesn't really believe it. I can say one thing, watching early MJ videos and watching  KB when he was younger , I was shaking my head wondering how MJ did certain things a lot more than when I was when watching Kobe.
  

You were shaking your head more with MJ cause he did it first....but first doesn't always equal better...What if Kobe came first, would he be better?
It hasn't just been Andrei Kirilenko and Ruben Patterson? Try Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Shane Battier, Tayshaun, Christie, etc. Not saying they're HOF defenders but let's be real, it wasn't just AK-47.

If a QB from the 70s had a better QB rating than 2011 Aaron Rodgers, would you pick the QB from the 70s over Aaron Rodgers? Numbers don't tell the whole story, right?

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

.
If a QB from the 70s had a better QB rating than 2011 Aaron Rodgers, would you pick the QB from the 70s over Aaron Rodgers? Numbers don't tell the whole story, right?

i have to ask, how/why do you think this is a proper analogy to make?

kobe was drafted in 1996.. jordan was still in the league at this time.. still dominating.. still winning championships (albeit these were his last couple of years in the league)

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by Deuce King


At the end of the day Kobe Bryant is and will forever be a very distant second to Jordan. 

QFT. 
Kobe is the poor man's Jordan. That's high praise right there to be a poor man's MJ. Whether people like it or not, Kobe is the closest we have to Jordan. Kobe is still light years behind him. 

 

[IATT]

and furthermore to your analogy..


defenses were allowed to do a ton more physically to offensive players in the 70s, 80s and hell even the 90s and early '00s (see what the pats DBs did to the rams receivers in the super bowl).. so a QB rating from the 70s would have to take that into consideration


this is similar to the 'hand checking' rule changes in basketbal, that obviously favors the offensive player

 

[sn souljah]

Kobe wasnt even the best scorer of his generation..draft of 96 ..iversons scoring > Kobes

 

[HEATHEN]

Originally Posted by Iamjusayn

Originally Posted by SneakerHeathen

Originally Posted by Iamjusayn

As soon as I read this in bold I could not fathom reading anymore....


SneakerHeathen wrote:

---

Kobe is my dude and I'm a Laker fan but. Jordan is the greatest NBA player who has ever lived.

So what? Neither were ever completely original. One day there will be kids that'll be borrowing from Kobe and LBJ, so what? Doesn't take one thing away from anyone's legacy.....



Just think about it fellas, one day there will be a kid just like LeBron, I mean it'll be mind boggling how much he'll play like him. He'll quit in the fourth quarter just like him too.

^ Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in bold esp if #8 got all his moves from MJ 

You sound foolish. I was trying to say that Jordan took elements of somebody's game as well (I bet you've never even watched an old Julius Erving game) and that everyone borrow's from their predecessors. Kobe borrowed A LOT from Jordan true, just like Jordan borrowed A LOT from Erving and Skywalker Thompson.

Secondly if you're going to dismiss something someone says at least have some sort substance to your retort other than "derp that's not true".

Dr. J 

 man please, with that argument! It does not work. You are really trying to compare what few Dunk and dipsy doo moves MJ mirrored from the Doc and then took that lil bit to the next level to bryant emulating MJ's whole game, persona, gum chewing, mannerisms, etc etc? 

 I'm done with you

1. You're done with me because you're threatened by someone who actually knows the game of basketball and has knowledge of the game before the year 2000.
2. You're a fool if you don't see parallels between Dr.J and MJ (oh I know why because you've never even seen Julius Erving play), secondly I love how you didn't even try to refute the parallels between Skywalker Thompson and MJ because well, you have no clue as to whom Skywalker Thompson is.

3. You're an idiot, go play Halo or something.

"Dipsy doo moves and dunks"? Really? watch Julius Erving some more child, watching a youtube highlight reel isn't "watching" Dr. J and THEN tell me MJ didn't influence heavily from Dr. J. Don't even belong in this thread with your asinine +#$. You're not even a real Jordan fan. 

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

and furthermore to your analogy..


defenses were allowed to do a ton more physically to offensive players in the 70s, 80s and hell even the 90s and early '00s (see what the pats DBs did to the rams receivers in the super bowl).. so a QB rating from the 70s would have to take that into consideration


this is similar to the 'hand checking' rule changes in basketbal, that obviously favors the offensive player

You're completely right about the playing environment/rule changes affecting player comparisons from one era to the next.
I was making the point regarding player efficiency. To rely on those numbers and say 'That's it, the numbers say MJ was more efficient therefore Kobe is nowhere close' is pretty asinine. Couldn't a Kobe stan argue that today's league is more competitive (i.e. compare the 2010 Celtics to any Finals team that Jordan played)? Again, both Kobe and MJ stans are just being selective in the logic they're using, no one is technically wrong and there's no statistic/formula that can comprehensively and granularly help us pick who's better.  
Here are some fundamental flaws to many of the points when comparing 2 basketball players:

Rings - too basic...doesn't take into account talent on each team, the total/relative talent around the league

Efficiency - Bill Russell was much more efficient than Dwight Howard. Does that mean Bill Russell would dominate Dwight? Evolution, relativity, and just going by the eye test (6-11, 265, jumps out the gym vs 6'9, 220, average athleticism relative to Dwight) would obviously counter just going simply off efficiency numbers

Scoring (usually total points or PPG averages) - what was the scoring environment in the league like? How talented was the player's team? Did he need to score? What was the defense in the league like? Were there players at his position that could pose challenges defensively?

Just going by the eye test, the 2010 Celtics were one of the best runner-up teams in NBA history. I'm a Laker fan and Kobe barely survived that matchup. Do you guys really think the early 90s Suns or the Payton/Kemp Sonics squads could keep up with Rondo/Jesus/Truth/KG/Perk? I mean honestly? 

I'm a firm believer in evolution and the reason we always remember past players is because they did it first. Would MJ be a monster in today's league? No doubt. Is that a slight towards Kobe or any of the current players? Not at all. Am I a firm believer that you could replace Bill Russell with Dwight or MJ with Kobe or Malone with Duncan or Kemp with KG and you'd still get the same, if not, better results? Of course. It's obviously silly to talk about modern day players in the past but it just goes to show how much basketball has improved. 

What did John Stockton have over CP3? Why don't we regard CP3 as the best PG ever? It's because Stockton did it before and did it well for longer. CP3 skill wise, athleticism wise, etc. makes Stockton look like an average joe. 

What could Malone do that Duncan couldn't?

What could Bill Russell do that Dwight couldn't?

What moves/skills did MJ have that Kobe couldn't?

What did Kemp bring to the table that KG couldn't replace?

Gary Payton is revered as the Glove...do you really think he could stay in front of DRose? Wade? 

Do we even have players from the past that compare to Dirk, Durant?

For anyone that answers, I can respond with things the modern player can do/did that the past player never did.

I truly believe from top to bottom, the league is more talented. I mean just watch a game from the 80s or 90s 

. 

It's funny how we agree that evolution takes place in every sport, everything in life except NBA basketball. 

 

[hankmoody]

What the hell did I just read

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

What the hell did I just read

Yeah it's on some inception sh**
Nice sig, great episode 

 

[IATT]

^ but you missed an essential point.. jordan and kobe played at the same time (granted at different points of their career)



but looking at the rules, i think jordan of the 80s/90s would have been that much better

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Just going by the eye test, the 2010 Celtics were one of the best runner-up teams in NBA history. I'm a Laker fan and Kobe barely survived that matchup. Do you guys really think the early 90s Suns or the Payton/Kemp Sonics squads could keep up with Rondo/Jesus/Truth/KG/Perk? I mean honestly? 

what about the '00 pacers, '01 sixers, '02 nets and '09 magic.. are those all-time great runner-ups too?


and the best runner-up teams were whoever lost those 80s celtics/lakers series (just look how stacked and complete those teams were)

 

[iamjusayn]

Originally Posted by Deuce King


At the end of the day Kobe Bryant is and will forever be a very distant second to Jordan.  They really don't even deserve to be in the same sentence unless we're talking about Kobe copying Jordan's moves and style bit by bit.  That's not to say Kobe isn't a great player because he is of course, I don't think anybody should and will take that away from him.  However, the thing that alot of the Kobe lovers on here fail to realize or don't want to realize is that Jordan NEVER played the role of Robin, Vice President, second in command or second fiddle, whatever you want to call it to any teammate.............EVER.  We can't say the same thing about Kobe.  Also, when watching Jordan play we see Jordan, he has/had his own unique style.  When we see Kobe play it's "monkey see, monkey do".

Does anything more really need to be said following this quote above? 

 People 

Thanks Deuce

 

[misterp0315]

Originally Posted by Iamjusayn

Originally Posted by Deuce King


At the end of the day Kobe Bryant is and will forever be a very distant second to Jordan.  They really don't even deserve to be in the same sentence unless we're talking about Kobe copying Jordan's moves and style bit by bit.  That's not to say Kobe isn't a great player because he is of course, I don't think anybody should and will take that away from him.  However, the thing that alot of the Kobe lovers on here fail to realize or don't want to realize is that Jordan NEVER played the role of Robin, Vice President, second in command or second fiddle, whatever you want to call it to any teammate.............EVER.  We can't say the same thing about Kobe.  Also, when watching Jordan play we see Jordan, he has/had his own unique style.  When we see Kobe play it's "monkey see, monkey do".

Does anything more really need to be said following this quote above? 

 People 

Thanks Deuce

Well..."monkey see, monkey do" developed him into one of the best SGs and players period in NBA history with an array of offensive weapons. Dudes act like Jordan created basketball and every mannerism that goes along with it.

Him being second fiddle...fine. You can call him Robin and all of those cute nicknames for not being THE top dog during his tenure with Shaq but he put up great numbers. Shaq thrived off of him and Kobe thrived off of Shaq being a force. You double Shaq, you pay the price. You double Kobe, you pay the price. That's why Kobe was able to torch people 1 on 1. Y'all acting like dude was Steve Kerr standing on the wing.

Quite often, teams would go into Hack-A-Shaq mode...Shaq exits. Kobe takes over...with Shaq on the bench. Or...Shaq gets in foul trouble since he could just run through dudes. Shaq exits. Kobe takes over. It happened a lot.

Kobe was drafted into a situation where he had to be #2...unlike Jordan. Unlike LeBron. Unlike...a lot of damn players who became #1 options. Don't know why Kobe gets discredited so much because of that. He's still a winner...a prominent factor in everything that he won at that...so save the Robert Horry/Steve Kerr ring argument. The end.

 

[denni5themenace]

Originally Posted by MisterP0315

Originally Posted by Iamjusayn

Originally Posted by Deuce King

don't even entertain deuce king. he discredits and mentions how kobe is robin EVERY chance he gets. 

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Just going by the eye test, the 2010 Celtics were one of the best runner-up teams in NBA history. I'm a Laker fan and Kobe barely survived that matchup. Do you guys really think the early 90s Suns or the Payton/Kemp Sonics squads could keep up with Rondo/Jesus/Truth/KG/Perk? I mean honestly? 

what about the '00 pacers, '01 sixers, '02 nets and '09 magic.. are those all-time great runner-ups too?


and the best runner-up teams were whoever lost those 80s celtics/lakers series (just look how stacked and complete those teams were)

You're bringing up the 80s Celtics/Lakers to help your argument, why not just focus on the teams MJ beat? 
Byron Russell, Ostertag, Hornacek ... 

Besides, my biggest gripe in this entire thread, by far, is the guy who saw the efficiency numbers and basically said that proved MJ was clearly better. Using his logic, let's do the same thing for the NFL, using career QB rating:

Tony Romo 95.8

Troy Aikman 81.6

John Elway 79.9

Johnny Unitas 78.2

Would you guys say Romo is better than all 3? 

No hate to MJ stans, I love you guys but come on

 

[westcoastsfinest]

I don't see a problem copying one of the best to ever play. Kobe dissected Jordan's game deep from his fadeaways to the celebrations. But there is no way he's greater than MJ. Remember Phil coached both these guys. I'm sure Phil had something to do with the similarities of MJ and Kobe. 

 

[hankmoody]

What do you want me to use? Go ahead, make my day. I just looked at the efficiency numbers?

You do see the disclaimer right? Right? It's right underneath those "numbers". Right below them. Go look.

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Just going by the eye test, the 2010 Celtics were one of the best runner-up teams in NBA history. I'm a Laker fan and Kobe barely survived that matchup. Do you guys really think the early 90s Suns or the Payton/Kemp Sonics squads could keep up with Rondo/Jesus/Truth/KG/Perk? I mean honestly? 

what about the '00 pacers, '01 sixers, '02 nets and '09 magic.. are those all-time great runner-ups too?


and the best runner-up teams were whoever lost those 80s celtics/lakers series (just look how stacked and complete those teams were)

You're bringing up the 80s Celtics/Lakers to help your argument, why not just focus on the teams MJ beat? 
Byron Russell, Ostertag, Hornacek ... 

Besides, my biggest gripe in this entire thread, by far, is the guy who saw the efficiency numbers and basically said that proved MJ was clearly better. Using his logic, let's do the same thing for the NFL, using career QB rating:

Tony Romo 95.8

Troy Aikman 81.6

John Elway 79.9

Johnny Unitas 78.2

Would you guys say Romo is better than all 3? 

No hate to MJ stans, I love you guys but come on

not making an argument (since i think it's pointless.. no one is going to change anyone's mind).. just pointing out the flaws in yours.. or asking you to address the flaws in yours

and i added my opinion on the runner-up teams (wasn't speaking specifically to MJs runner ups).. you did say: "the 2010 Celtics were one of the best runner-up teams in NBA history"

added note, the lakers faced harder competition on their road to the finals



but i would take those teams MJ played against in the finals over those pacers, nets, sixers and magic teams