- Aug 6, 2012
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So when other villains start killing other people, is he gonna kill all of them too? They kinda created a mess with that.
Man of Steel (Superman Movie Thread) - June 14, 2013 - NEW Trailer pg20
- Dec 13, 2004
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You are crazy dude. A distraction isn't enough to take off a "bunch" of Kryptonians helmets as you said. If Faoras punch could take out 3 suits in a single punch like he did with those soldiers, which took a measly second, a bunch of Kryptonians or even just Faora & Namek will take 40+ in less than a minute. Again Namek and Faora were being shot with missiles and their helmets were unharmed. They were unharmed. What distraction and kind of shot can IM concoct to remove it?
Training does give Faora advantage, even more advantage against those suits. They won't be able to touch em if a faster individual can't even catch them.
Numbers game won't matter if they can one punch each suit and go from destroying one suit to other in less than a second.
Not to mention that Zod mastered his skills pretty quickly too. So the helmet becomes useless if you distract half of the Kryptonians and the other half can concentrate to focus their strengths. Hell even if one can master his skills, it pretty much destroys IMs plan.
And IM just hacks the ship? An alien tech? When did he display that any films? Why didn't he just hack the Chitauri ship because apparently destroying the mothership kills all chitauri. If IM couldn't figure that out from the get go, how is he going to figure it out against Kryptonians?
Now you are just making up feats that was never performed in the movie.
Anyways, can we move on. Game 6 exhausted the hell out of me.
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- Sep 27, 2003
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Meh, Hulk could take on all 3 plus this version of Superman (untrained, undisciplined)
MarvelSux
formerly brucewayne
- Jul 19, 2012
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Faora>Avengers
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Your words. You said Avengers. Now you're gonna give Tony his 40 suits so its just Tony vs the 3 or the Avengers vs the 3. Which one? You can have both and I'm still taking the kryptonians. Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye survive for 2 mins. The Tony shortly after.
- Aug 16, 2006
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A god vs a mortal isnt a fair fight
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I'm an Amy Adams fan but I have to agree with the others (I think it was Lamekilla) that she did look a bit too old in the film. By the time the 3rd film comes out (after the sequel and JLA, thats what Goyers is contracted for), they'd have to recast her because she'll look like Ma Kent by then.
Her acting was good but it wasn't the standout performance so I think someone younger would have been a better choice. You can tell her age in some of the scenes, doesn't help that she looks rugged for about half of the film.
- Jul 31, 2007
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On another note, one thing I found a bit dumb story wise which caused the conflict was Jor-El wanting Clark to make it so the codex would be used to make new Kryptonians to work together with Earthlings and Zod simply wanted to use them as their foundation and wipe them out. While we all know a hospitable planet is right next door in Mars. They must've passed it to hide behind the moon. They had world engines to terraform the Earth and they could've just done that on Mars. Problems solved. Key flaw in genetic engineering. Had Zod been programmed with a little personality encompassing subterfuge and manipulation. He could've came to Earth in peace, got the codex, repopulated all of New Krypton on Mars and came back and took over Earth starting off a nice growing galactic empire.
The comparison had to do with how each handled their alien invasion. The circumstances and outcomes for both which were very different. Supes needed help. Avengers already formed as a team to get the job done.
@ you still bringing up the other 3. You haven't really been following the conversation. If you were you wouldn't be typing that. It was already mentioned who would be in it. I was simply adding Iron Man.
Them suits would do the job. Random explosions of missles and bullets aint what IM is bringing to the fight anyway so that's an irrelevant comparison.
If if she's taking out each suit in less than a second, send more suits. That's more than enough time to coordinate an attack.
The mother ship was on the other side of the portal. There's range when it comes to hacking. Proximity.
If you don't care for hacking then he would've just tricked them in to thinking he had the codex and then lured them to their deaths in the phantom zone.
If I was a diehard fan of Supes I'm sure I'd be mad but this way I think I'll get a Superman I'll really like. He's suppose to be a beacon of hope and lead by example but with that murder he's like any other human and can't do the latter to his best extent. So to me the only other alternative is to rule by example.
The Avengers as a team. So what are you saying Tony can't have his suits now? I'd see it as them just going on another mission to stop an alien invasion.
The comparison had to do with how each handled their alien invasion. The circumstances and outcomes for both which were very different. Supes needed help. Avengers already formed as a team to get the job done.
@ you still bringing up the other 3. You haven't really been following the conversation. If you were you wouldn't be typing that. It was already mentioned who would be in it. I was simply adding Iron Man.Eh the same IM suits that were taking blows from Thor can't take blows from those 3 now? When they're not even fully powered?
Again Namek and Faora were being shot with missiles and their helmets were unharmed. They were unharmed. What distraction and kind of shot can IM concoct to remove it?
Training does give Faora advantage, even more advantage against those suits. They won't be able to touch em if a faster individual can't even catch them.
Numbers game won't matter if they can one punch each suit and go from destroying one suit to other in less than a second.
Not to mention that Zod mastered his skills pretty quickly too. So the helmet becomes useless if you distract half of the Kryptonians and the other half can concentrate to focus their strengths. Hell even if one can master his skills, it pretty much destroys IMs plan.
And IM just hacks the ship? An alien tech? When did he display that any films? Why didn't he just hack the Chitauri ship because apparently destroying the mothership kills all chitauri. If IM couldn't figure that out from the get go, how is he going to figure it out against Kryptonians?
Now you are just making up feats that was never performed in the movie.
Anyways, can we move on. Game 6 exhausted the hell out of me.
Them suits would do the job. Random explosions of missles and bullets aint what IM is bringing to the fight anyway so that's an irrelevant comparison.If if she's taking out each suit in less than a second, send more suits. That's more than enough time to coordinate an attack.
The mother ship was on the other side of the portal. There's range when it comes to hacking. Proximity.
If you don't care for hacking then he would've just tricked them in to thinking he had the codex and then lured them to their deaths in the phantom zone.
Hope they keep it up. Can't really turn back now. I'm pretty sure Lois wrote an article about his victory so a guy like Lex or even Brainiac knows exactly what he needs to do take dude too far. Then he can start propaganda about when he'll turn on us.
If I was a diehard fan of Supes I'm sure I'd be mad but this way I think I'll get a Superman I'll really like. He's suppose to be a beacon of hope and lead by example but with that murder he's like any other human and can't do the latter to his best extent. So to me the only other alternative is to rule by example.
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- Aug 27, 2006
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Funny video..Start it at 2:10 and it perfectly fits the SM vs. Avengers discussion..
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^
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Eh the same IM suits that were taking blows from Thor can't take blows from those 3 now? When they're not even fully powered?
If if she's taking out each suit in less than a second, send more suits. That's more than enough time to coordinate an attack.
The mother ship was on the other side of the portal. There's range when it comes to hacking. Proximity.
If you don't care for hacking then he would've just tricked them in to thinking he had the codex and then lured them to their deaths in the phantom zone.
Yah and the same suit IM had took blows from Extremis but once th emepty shell got struck, it made a hole and destroyed them.
Plus that IM being able to take Thors hammer is ridiculous but it did take some damage. But when he got caught in the propeller, his suit got shredded and practically destroyed. And yah direct hit by a missile is close enough to what IM is bringing, his repulsors are energy blasts and we don't know what materials Kryptonian armor is, remember how Supes key had an unknown metal? How do we even know IMs blast can damage it? What if it does not damage? What is he going to use? The "1-shot" laser he used in IM2? And if that misses? Or only hits one? Damages the armor and not the helmet? Then what? Again it isn't sure if it will even scratch their armor when missiles doesn't seem to make a dent.
IM only has 40 something suits so he can't just bring in more suits, agains that is just more feat that wasn't in the film, IM can't summon unlimited hollow suits. There is just no coordination that can distract Kryptonians enough to overpower them, especially 42 lowly hollow suits. I forgot that Kryptonians had their guns too so even w/o heat vision (yet), that gives them range.
Zods army are also military trained (born to be one and trained their whole life) so they can coordinate their attacks/defense too. Faora & NamEk worked on Supes together and just beat the crap out of him.
Also, IM wouldn't know about the Phantom Zone, that is something that JorEl had to tell Lois and how they can be activated again, which is only done by striking Zods ship with the energize Supes ship. No way IM would know about that. The same with the codex, Supes knew about it but how would IM get that info? There is no Loki to announce his plan. I still stand that IM won't be able to hack an alien tech/ship until it is proven as a feat in a film. Dude took forever to even hack SHIELD ship (at least hours) and be inside the ship to do it, he didn't do it remotely. I think it is safe to assume that IF he can somehow hack the Kryptonian ship, it'll take much longer and he'd likely be dead by then.
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Not really to be used as a defense to the argument because real physics is moot in the convo but this is pretty cool:
- Dec 13, 2004
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Someones response to MoS criticisms (long read):
Addressing the “Issues” in Man of Steel
So, I absolutely loved Man of Steel, but I’ve seen some pretty negative reviews about of the film. By and large, they largely revolve around these four things: Too Dark/Gritty, Jonathan Kent, Collateral Damage, & Zod’s Defeat, all of which I’ve decided to directly address in excruciating detail. This is going to be spoilery as all hell, so if you haven’t seen the film, come back an read it later. Consider this to be your go-to source for a definitive rebuttal to these parts of the film. I watched the film at midnight in XD 3D, and then again after hearing all of the issues in IMAX 3D, so I’ve watched the film in about as much detail as possible without owning a copy of it. SO - without further adieu, let’s get into this:
• Too Dark/Gritty: This film in coming out of the generally not-too-badly-reviewed-but-not-at-all-praised Superman Returns, which showed us the ‘able to save all people from any danger’ Superman, as well as the ‘Superman who essentially only lifts things’ so it’s not surprising that it’s a bit reactionary for the reboot film to feel very different. Man of Steel is clearly shying away from the “Good ‘Ol Days” type Superman, and leaning a little more towards the tone that made The Dark Knight films successful, as well as working Superman’s origin into something that puts him in more modern times. That being said, Superman HIMSELF hasn’t changed, it’s the setting of the world that Superman occupies that’s changed. The tImes and people of today are different than the ones when Superman was initially conceives, so there are some stark changes in the translation, and we’re looking at a Clark Kent who was raised in a more skeptical time, with a faster spread of information. The end of the film gives a good glimpse of who Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman is and will continue to be, and he IS that same hero that everyone remembers, even if the film doesn’t get to show you that as often as previous movies have.
I would be fairly confident in saying that most people who significantly disliked this general aspect of the film are people who wanted a Superman film that more closely resembled the originals. All I can say to that is that the move away from that tone was not only successful ($125 Million opening weekend, and biggest June opening weekend ever), but finally has a tone that it feels like all of the rest of the DC Universe can exist in. Overall, the tone is the most subjective of the complaints, and if it’s not your style, it’s not your style, but there are a lot of reasons that it works, and if you read through the rest, you might be able to see how, DESPITE THAT this film’s Superman is still the same as the one you wanted to see.
• Jonathan Kent: Jonathan Kent is different in his tone and what happens with him, and some people have GREATLY disliked the message that he gave to young Clark, but I think that this is because they’re frequently misinterpreting it. Jonathan completely believes in Clark and what he will one day do for the human race more than anyone. While Jor-El is the one who wants Clark to be an example for Humanity and to save them, Jonathan is the one who wants to ensure that he gets that chance. After Clark saves the kids in the bus from the river, Pete Ross’s mom get hysterical about it, and the Kents both try to avoid anyone turning it into a big deal. Clark asks his father if he should have let them die, Jonathan says, “…maybe” and then, after showing Clark the ship that he arrived in explains that he believes more than anything that Clark will change everything in the world, but that right now, both Clark himself AND the people aren’t ready, because they’re afraid of what they don’t understand, and Clark doesn’t know enough about himself yet. He knows that if Clark reveals himself as a super-powered extra-terrestrial too early, that humanity will NEVER give him an opportunity to prove that he can be a force for good. On top of that, he’s adamant because he knows that Clark will only ever get ONE CHANCE to do that. This is the same reason that Perry White doesn’t want to print Lois’ story, and the same reason that Lois eventually abandons her story. There is no better lens for the truth of Jonathan’s fears in the public eye on a larger scale than what we see with the employees of the Daily Planet. This message and chance is SO CRITICAL that Jonathan stands by those words at all costs, and is convinced that Clark needs to wait until he understands his powers and until HE is ready, AND humanity is ready. He proves his commitment to that when, just as he said that Clark should possibly have let the kids in the bus drown in order to keep his powers a secret until the right time, Jonathan holds up his hand to stop Clark from using his powers to save him from the tornado, because that time isn’t right. Despite being in an argument moments before, Clark respects his father enough, and believes in him to let him go. It’s the trust and truth of that moment that make it important and as impactful as his original death being something that Clark couldn’t save him from - he died to show Clark that he believed that he could become the amazing force that he’d always believed in.
This directly plays in to what I consider to be Superman’s most definitive trait, which I’ll address again later - he believes in us more than we believe in him. After he saves Pete Ross, he doesn’t mock Clark anymore, and later he helps to break up a fight, because he understands that Clark can’t fight back, but doesn’t say anything. Jonathan Kent again shows that he believes in his son, and is helping him to become the type of man that he believes the world needs, because every trait of Clark’s is amplified in the eyes of the people who are going to scrutinize him because of his abilities. The last scene in the film that shows Jonathan Kent proves that he believed in his son Clark more than anything. He NEVER wanted Clark to hide who he was FOREVER, he just wanted him to hide who he was until the moment was right. It’s a different version of the story, but one that’s more relevant to the current world and the themes in the film, and I still feel that when seen in the bigger picture that Jonathan Kent was attempting to give to Clark, it’s just as meaningful.
• Collateral Damage: This is probably going to be the largest of the breakdowns, because there are a vast number of specifics to address, but this point needs to be made first - this film’s Superman is BRAND NEW to his powers. He’s never fought before, he hasn’t spent ANY of his life as the world’s savior, aside from doing right where he can in small ways, LONG before he gained the ability to fly, and he’s never actually been able to fight ANYONE before these conflicts. So the before you start accusing him of not doing more, remember that he’s BARELY become able to do what he accomplishes in the film. So, now let’s get into the fights themselves. The filme doesn’t give you any of the slow-motion fighting that’s so commonly used in film these days, so it’s easy to assume that things are happening that didn’t, because everything is just full-power, breakneck speed, militarily-trained Kryptonians going all out against Kal-El. We’ll start with the first conflict in Smallville, and work from there.
After saving Lois from the broken escape pod, Kal-El rushes over towards his home, and tackles Zod. This is the first building that Kal-El himself destroys. He plows directly through two grain silos, and drags Zod through a cornfield while punching him in the face and yelling at him for threatening his mother. The grain silos are more than likely unoccupied, as they’re just storage facilities. Zod rolls out and hurls Kal-El through an occupied gas station, causing people to flee. You’ll note that Zod comes walking out of the flames in the building, as Kal-El is lying on the pavement well outside the store. Considering that he’s fighting against militarily trained Kryptonians, there isn’t much he can do about that type of thing occurring. This is the first of many, MANY times that Superman gets used as a projectile that causes collateral damage, and one that’s easy to MISTAKE for him CAUSING the damage through his own action. Zod leaves with his mask broken, but Faora-Ul & her ENORMOUS Kryptonian compatriot step in, and Clark tells everyone to stay inside or leave.
The moment that the military arrives, and essentially locks in the conflict’s location within the town. Clark manages to save a man from falling to his death after the big Kryptonian hurls a van into his helicopter before the fighting REALLY breaks out, but after that he doesn’t have a moment to spare. In addition to the fact that the military is treating him like a threat, the two Kryptonians tag-team him and hurl him through buildings, or just smash him into the ground at just about every turn, and he’s barely managing to hold off their assault, let alone have enough time to leap to anyone’s aid. This is a battle that ISN’T on his terms - not to mention that he hasn’t even fought anyone before, let alone tried to micromanage combat and rescuing people. He gets hurled through buildings into a bank vault, pummeled relentlessly through an IHOP, and back to where he was before. This leads to the SECOND human structure that Clark destroys - he tosses the big Kryptonian into a train yard. Again, this is another area that’s likely abandoned (he would have had a pretty good view of it from the air, and ought to have been able to tell), but like the grain silo, it’s hard to say for certain. After, knocking down Faora-Ul, she delivers a rather heavy threat, “For every one you save, we’ll kill a million more.” and with these people, Kal-El can’t take his attention away from them, even for a moment, because they’re better than he is, and his biggest advantage here is that they’re not adapted to our atmosphere. After getting hit by a train hurled by the big Kryptonian from the aforementioned yard, there isn’t anything else significant that comes to mind that Clark is involved in (various gunfire, and Faora-Ul blocking a missile fired at her are collateral damage that he’s not directly involved in because he’s otherwise detained). This weakness leads to the next big conflict that deals in HEAVY collateral damage - Metropolis.
The World Engine is activated in the Indian Ocean, and is slaved to the Kryptonian’s Ship hovering over Metropolis. The World Engine is generating the gravity wave that’s causing the destruction and also serving as a protective barrier around their ship. In addition to this, the longer that the World Engine remains intact, the bigger the gravity wave will get, and the more of the atmosphere will be converted into Kryptonian-friendly and Earth-deadly fumes. This means that Superman HAS to tackle the World Engine first, in order to allow Lois and the military to send the rest of the Kryptonians into the Phantom Zone, as well as to ensure that it causes the least amount of damage possible.
Let me be clear here - by fighting that gigantic machine, Superman is saving more people than if he’d gone immediately to Metropolis - that ship is has somewhere around eight Kryptonians who we already know pose a threat to him if there’re just two of them fighting him. Two, even if he defeats them, the World Engine would be wrecking Metropolis THE ENTIRE TIME, if not causing global-scale damage. The World Engine is increasing the Earth’s mass, in order to make the world’s gravity more like that of Krypton (which is some sketchy science, but that’s something else entirely), and that ship is just localizing the effect to use it as a shield/weapon. Not to mention that after a fight against a whole slew of Kryptonians in fluctuating Gravity, he might not even be strong enough to break down the World Engine at all (since he barely managed to hold up against the gravity level where it was at when it was his first target, and it would be significantly stronger if he attempted to combat it later - not to mention, without the focus, it might just spread the effect across the entire world if they destroyed the Kryptonian ship first which would cause Global damage). So, now it should be clear that, Superman is saving more people by being halfway around the world than by being in Metropolis at the time, despite the fact that it feels counterintuitive.
Now let’s move on to his fight against Zod, which takes place in the non-ruined parts of Metropolis. Zod throws Kal-El through a LOT of buildings which are possibly and even likely occupied. We even see people near where debris is falling, but Superman isn’t doing anything to save them - this is again because this fight isn’t on his terms (and this isn’t the Superman who’s been using all of these powers to save people around the world before). Zod is a battle trained warrior who adapts to the issues Clark faced on Earth in a matter of hours. Clark is fighting as hard as he can just to get even a momentary advantage here. If he runs to try to change the battlefield - Zod probably won’t chase him, he’ll just start murdering people by the thousands, so he stays as close to Zod as possible, but that doesn’t do him any favors. He gets tossed through buildings, punched into space, and relentlessly pummeled. There is ONE SINGLE TIME DURING THIS ENTIRE FIGHT that Kal-El damages a building or any other structure that may have resulted in human injury - Zod is dragging him against a building (the same way Kal-El dragged him through the cornfield), and he flips around and drags Zod against the outside of the building for the last few feet. Aside from that, Kal-El DOESN’T DIRECTLY CAUSE ANY DAMAGE WITHIN METROPOLIS. There’s even a whole sequence of him punching Zod through the sky, moving through the city (assumedly in an attempt to move out of it), where he doesn’t hit Zod into anything and even specifically avoids all of the buildings, before Zod gets the better of him again. Overall, despite how it looks, Kal-El takes every opportunity to save people when he can - which is almost never, and when he can’t, he’s trying to ensure the least amount of damage possible. (On a related note, this is likely why this Superman takes up Metropolis as his ‘home city’ - because he feels that he owes them for everyone that he couldn’t save from the Kryptonian’s attacks).
• Zod’s Defeat: Zod is the antithesis of who Kal-El is, and his role as the General of the Army and Protector of Krypton is in direct opposition to the role of Superman. Jor-El wanted to use the Genesis Chamber to bring Kryptons back on Earth the same way that Clark did, but Zod doesn’t see this “suffering” as an option, because his role is to ensure the greatest chance for survival for his people, no matter the cost to anything else. This isn’t an option that Kal-El will allow, because it’s genocide and because he doesn’t want to kill ANYONE, he attempted to trap all of the Kryptonians in the Phantom Zone rather than kill them. Zod escapes this fate by being onboard the Genesis ship, and when Kal-El confronts him, it becomes clear that Zod sees this as the last way to resurrect Krypton in his own image - the same one Jor-El refuses to be a part of at the beginning of the film. As the living Codex, Kal-El could still potentially save his people one day in a different way, but the systematic bloodline control is the only future that Zod believes in. Once this option of bringing back his vision of Krypton is taken from him, he exists only to destroy everything that Kal-El wants to save, and he will NEVER stop. He can’t be sent to the Phantom Zone anymore, and there isn’t any force on Earth that can hold or imprison him, and he refuses to be reasoned with, and puts Kal-El in an impossible situation where he HAS to kill him, allow an innocent family die. We also have to remember that he has Zod at a momentary disadvantage here, and if he doesn’t take the opportunity, it is a certainty that he will kill the family, and a SIGNIFICANT likelihood that Kal-El won’t be able to stop him from killing even more people. Right after snapping Zod’s neck, he drops to the ground screams in pain, because he’s never killed anyone before, and he didn’t WANT to kill anyone. He WANTED to be a bridge between their people and bring his people a new home, but Zod and the other Kryptonians wouldn’t allow it to happen. He is suffering the same failure with his own people that Jonathan Kent feared he would suffer with the people of Earth - they didn’t give him a chance to let him save them, and they only rejected him. This is probably the biggest impact of this film, and the one that’s most misunderstood, especially if you missed the full meaning of Jonathan Kent’s message to Clark. Kal-El killing Zod not ONLY represents the failures of the old society of Krypton, but most of all, it shows that when it comes down to trust in the people of Earth or the peoples of Krypton, Superman is definitively, ALWAYS the hero who trusts in us. He believes in us even more than we believe in ourselves, and even when it costs him something that we can’t understand, he choses US. THAT is what defines Superman.
So, I absolutely loved Man of Steel, but I’ve seen some pretty negative reviews about of the film. By and large, they largely revolve around these four things: Too Dark/Gritty, Jonathan Kent, Collateral Damage, & Zod’s Defeat, all of which I’ve decided to directly address in excruciating detail. This is going to be spoilery as all hell, so if you haven’t seen the film, come back an read it later. Consider this to be your go-to source for a definitive rebuttal to these parts of the film. I watched the film at midnight in XD 3D, and then again after hearing all of the issues in IMAX 3D, so I’ve watched the film in about as much detail as possible without owning a copy of it. SO - without further adieu, let’s get into this:
• Too Dark/Gritty: This film in coming out of the generally not-too-badly-reviewed-but-not-at-all-praised Superman Returns, which showed us the ‘able to save all people from any danger’ Superman, as well as the ‘Superman who essentially only lifts things’ so it’s not surprising that it’s a bit reactionary for the reboot film to feel very different. Man of Steel is clearly shying away from the “Good ‘Ol Days” type Superman, and leaning a little more towards the tone that made The Dark Knight films successful, as well as working Superman’s origin into something that puts him in more modern times. That being said, Superman HIMSELF hasn’t changed, it’s the setting of the world that Superman occupies that’s changed. The tImes and people of today are different than the ones when Superman was initially conceives, so there are some stark changes in the translation, and we’re looking at a Clark Kent who was raised in a more skeptical time, with a faster spread of information. The end of the film gives a good glimpse of who Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman is and will continue to be, and he IS that same hero that everyone remembers, even if the film doesn’t get to show you that as often as previous movies have.
I would be fairly confident in saying that most people who significantly disliked this general aspect of the film are people who wanted a Superman film that more closely resembled the originals. All I can say to that is that the move away from that tone was not only successful ($125 Million opening weekend, and biggest June opening weekend ever), but finally has a tone that it feels like all of the rest of the DC Universe can exist in. Overall, the tone is the most subjective of the complaints, and if it’s not your style, it’s not your style, but there are a lot of reasons that it works, and if you read through the rest, you might be able to see how, DESPITE THAT this film’s Superman is still the same as the one you wanted to see.
• Jonathan Kent: Jonathan Kent is different in his tone and what happens with him, and some people have GREATLY disliked the message that he gave to young Clark, but I think that this is because they’re frequently misinterpreting it. Jonathan completely believes in Clark and what he will one day do for the human race more than anyone. While Jor-El is the one who wants Clark to be an example for Humanity and to save them, Jonathan is the one who wants to ensure that he gets that chance. After Clark saves the kids in the bus from the river, Pete Ross’s mom get hysterical about it, and the Kents both try to avoid anyone turning it into a big deal. Clark asks his father if he should have let them die, Jonathan says, “…maybe” and then, after showing Clark the ship that he arrived in explains that he believes more than anything that Clark will change everything in the world, but that right now, both Clark himself AND the people aren’t ready, because they’re afraid of what they don’t understand, and Clark doesn’t know enough about himself yet. He knows that if Clark reveals himself as a super-powered extra-terrestrial too early, that humanity will NEVER give him an opportunity to prove that he can be a force for good. On top of that, he’s adamant because he knows that Clark will only ever get ONE CHANCE to do that. This is the same reason that Perry White doesn’t want to print Lois’ story, and the same reason that Lois eventually abandons her story. There is no better lens for the truth of Jonathan’s fears in the public eye on a larger scale than what we see with the employees of the Daily Planet. This message and chance is SO CRITICAL that Jonathan stands by those words at all costs, and is convinced that Clark needs to wait until he understands his powers and until HE is ready, AND humanity is ready. He proves his commitment to that when, just as he said that Clark should possibly have let the kids in the bus drown in order to keep his powers a secret until the right time, Jonathan holds up his hand to stop Clark from using his powers to save him from the tornado, because that time isn’t right. Despite being in an argument moments before, Clark respects his father enough, and believes in him to let him go. It’s the trust and truth of that moment that make it important and as impactful as his original death being something that Clark couldn’t save him from - he died to show Clark that he believed that he could become the amazing force that he’d always believed in.
This directly plays in to what I consider to be Superman’s most definitive trait, which I’ll address again later - he believes in us more than we believe in him. After he saves Pete Ross, he doesn’t mock Clark anymore, and later he helps to break up a fight, because he understands that Clark can’t fight back, but doesn’t say anything. Jonathan Kent again shows that he believes in his son, and is helping him to become the type of man that he believes the world needs, because every trait of Clark’s is amplified in the eyes of the people who are going to scrutinize him because of his abilities. The last scene in the film that shows Jonathan Kent proves that he believed in his son Clark more than anything. He NEVER wanted Clark to hide who he was FOREVER, he just wanted him to hide who he was until the moment was right. It’s a different version of the story, but one that’s more relevant to the current world and the themes in the film, and I still feel that when seen in the bigger picture that Jonathan Kent was attempting to give to Clark, it’s just as meaningful.
• Collateral Damage: This is probably going to be the largest of the breakdowns, because there are a vast number of specifics to address, but this point needs to be made first - this film’s Superman is BRAND NEW to his powers. He’s never fought before, he hasn’t spent ANY of his life as the world’s savior, aside from doing right where he can in small ways, LONG before he gained the ability to fly, and he’s never actually been able to fight ANYONE before these conflicts. So the before you start accusing him of not doing more, remember that he’s BARELY become able to do what he accomplishes in the film. So, now let’s get into the fights themselves. The filme doesn’t give you any of the slow-motion fighting that’s so commonly used in film these days, so it’s easy to assume that things are happening that didn’t, because everything is just full-power, breakneck speed, militarily-trained Kryptonians going all out against Kal-El. We’ll start with the first conflict in Smallville, and work from there.
After saving Lois from the broken escape pod, Kal-El rushes over towards his home, and tackles Zod. This is the first building that Kal-El himself destroys. He plows directly through two grain silos, and drags Zod through a cornfield while punching him in the face and yelling at him for threatening his mother. The grain silos are more than likely unoccupied, as they’re just storage facilities. Zod rolls out and hurls Kal-El through an occupied gas station, causing people to flee. You’ll note that Zod comes walking out of the flames in the building, as Kal-El is lying on the pavement well outside the store. Considering that he’s fighting against militarily trained Kryptonians, there isn’t much he can do about that type of thing occurring. This is the first of many, MANY times that Superman gets used as a projectile that causes collateral damage, and one that’s easy to MISTAKE for him CAUSING the damage through his own action. Zod leaves with his mask broken, but Faora-Ul & her ENORMOUS Kryptonian compatriot step in, and Clark tells everyone to stay inside or leave.
The moment that the military arrives, and essentially locks in the conflict’s location within the town. Clark manages to save a man from falling to his death after the big Kryptonian hurls a van into his helicopter before the fighting REALLY breaks out, but after that he doesn’t have a moment to spare. In addition to the fact that the military is treating him like a threat, the two Kryptonians tag-team him and hurl him through buildings, or just smash him into the ground at just about every turn, and he’s barely managing to hold off their assault, let alone have enough time to leap to anyone’s aid. This is a battle that ISN’T on his terms - not to mention that he hasn’t even fought anyone before, let alone tried to micromanage combat and rescuing people. He gets hurled through buildings into a bank vault, pummeled relentlessly through an IHOP, and back to where he was before. This leads to the SECOND human structure that Clark destroys - he tosses the big Kryptonian into a train yard. Again, this is another area that’s likely abandoned (he would have had a pretty good view of it from the air, and ought to have been able to tell), but like the grain silo, it’s hard to say for certain. After, knocking down Faora-Ul, she delivers a rather heavy threat, “For every one you save, we’ll kill a million more.” and with these people, Kal-El can’t take his attention away from them, even for a moment, because they’re better than he is, and his biggest advantage here is that they’re not adapted to our atmosphere. After getting hit by a train hurled by the big Kryptonian from the aforementioned yard, there isn’t anything else significant that comes to mind that Clark is involved in (various gunfire, and Faora-Ul blocking a missile fired at her are collateral damage that he’s not directly involved in because he’s otherwise detained). This weakness leads to the next big conflict that deals in HEAVY collateral damage - Metropolis.
The World Engine is activated in the Indian Ocean, and is slaved to the Kryptonian’s Ship hovering over Metropolis. The World Engine is generating the gravity wave that’s causing the destruction and also serving as a protective barrier around their ship. In addition to this, the longer that the World Engine remains intact, the bigger the gravity wave will get, and the more of the atmosphere will be converted into Kryptonian-friendly and Earth-deadly fumes. This means that Superman HAS to tackle the World Engine first, in order to allow Lois and the military to send the rest of the Kryptonians into the Phantom Zone, as well as to ensure that it causes the least amount of damage possible.
Let me be clear here - by fighting that gigantic machine, Superman is saving more people than if he’d gone immediately to Metropolis - that ship is has somewhere around eight Kryptonians who we already know pose a threat to him if there’re just two of them fighting him. Two, even if he defeats them, the World Engine would be wrecking Metropolis THE ENTIRE TIME, if not causing global-scale damage. The World Engine is increasing the Earth’s mass, in order to make the world’s gravity more like that of Krypton (which is some sketchy science, but that’s something else entirely), and that ship is just localizing the effect to use it as a shield/weapon. Not to mention that after a fight against a whole slew of Kryptonians in fluctuating Gravity, he might not even be strong enough to break down the World Engine at all (since he barely managed to hold up against the gravity level where it was at when it was his first target, and it would be significantly stronger if he attempted to combat it later - not to mention, without the focus, it might just spread the effect across the entire world if they destroyed the Kryptonian ship first which would cause Global damage). So, now it should be clear that, Superman is saving more people by being halfway around the world than by being in Metropolis at the time, despite the fact that it feels counterintuitive.
Now let’s move on to his fight against Zod, which takes place in the non-ruined parts of Metropolis. Zod throws Kal-El through a LOT of buildings which are possibly and even likely occupied. We even see people near where debris is falling, but Superman isn’t doing anything to save them - this is again because this fight isn’t on his terms (and this isn’t the Superman who’s been using all of these powers to save people around the world before). Zod is a battle trained warrior who adapts to the issues Clark faced on Earth in a matter of hours. Clark is fighting as hard as he can just to get even a momentary advantage here. If he runs to try to change the battlefield - Zod probably won’t chase him, he’ll just start murdering people by the thousands, so he stays as close to Zod as possible, but that doesn’t do him any favors. He gets tossed through buildings, punched into space, and relentlessly pummeled. There is ONE SINGLE TIME DURING THIS ENTIRE FIGHT that Kal-El damages a building or any other structure that may have resulted in human injury - Zod is dragging him against a building (the same way Kal-El dragged him through the cornfield), and he flips around and drags Zod against the outside of the building for the last few feet. Aside from that, Kal-El DOESN’T DIRECTLY CAUSE ANY DAMAGE WITHIN METROPOLIS. There’s even a whole sequence of him punching Zod through the sky, moving through the city (assumedly in an attempt to move out of it), where he doesn’t hit Zod into anything and even specifically avoids all of the buildings, before Zod gets the better of him again. Overall, despite how it looks, Kal-El takes every opportunity to save people when he can - which is almost never, and when he can’t, he’s trying to ensure the least amount of damage possible. (On a related note, this is likely why this Superman takes up Metropolis as his ‘home city’ - because he feels that he owes them for everyone that he couldn’t save from the Kryptonian’s attacks).
• Zod’s Defeat: Zod is the antithesis of who Kal-El is, and his role as the General of the Army and Protector of Krypton is in direct opposition to the role of Superman. Jor-El wanted to use the Genesis Chamber to bring Kryptons back on Earth the same way that Clark did, but Zod doesn’t see this “suffering” as an option, because his role is to ensure the greatest chance for survival for his people, no matter the cost to anything else. This isn’t an option that Kal-El will allow, because it’s genocide and because he doesn’t want to kill ANYONE, he attempted to trap all of the Kryptonians in the Phantom Zone rather than kill them. Zod escapes this fate by being onboard the Genesis ship, and when Kal-El confronts him, it becomes clear that Zod sees this as the last way to resurrect Krypton in his own image - the same one Jor-El refuses to be a part of at the beginning of the film. As the living Codex, Kal-El could still potentially save his people one day in a different way, but the systematic bloodline control is the only future that Zod believes in. Once this option of bringing back his vision of Krypton is taken from him, he exists only to destroy everything that Kal-El wants to save, and he will NEVER stop. He can’t be sent to the Phantom Zone anymore, and there isn’t any force on Earth that can hold or imprison him, and he refuses to be reasoned with, and puts Kal-El in an impossible situation where he HAS to kill him, allow an innocent family die. We also have to remember that he has Zod at a momentary disadvantage here, and if he doesn’t take the opportunity, it is a certainty that he will kill the family, and a SIGNIFICANT likelihood that Kal-El won’t be able to stop him from killing even more people. Right after snapping Zod’s neck, he drops to the ground screams in pain, because he’s never killed anyone before, and he didn’t WANT to kill anyone. He WANTED to be a bridge between their people and bring his people a new home, but Zod and the other Kryptonians wouldn’t allow it to happen. He is suffering the same failure with his own people that Jonathan Kent feared he would suffer with the people of Earth - they didn’t give him a chance to let him save them, and they only rejected him. This is probably the biggest impact of this film, and the one that’s most misunderstood, especially if you missed the full meaning of Jonathan Kent’s message to Clark. Kal-El killing Zod not ONLY represents the failures of the old society of Krypton, but most of all, it shows that when it comes down to trust in the people of Earth or the peoples of Krypton, Superman is definitively, ALWAYS the hero who trusts in us. He believes in us even more than we believe in ourselves, and even when it costs him something that we can’t understand, he choses US. THAT is what defines Superman.
- Jul 31, 2007
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^That breakdown of the collateral damage seems to spend a lot of time trying to say it wasn't Superman's fault but not denying that there was collateral damage. As long as there's 2 guys fighting they're both to blame for innocent bystanders being hurt.
The first thing Goku always does is go to a deserted area for his Earth trembling fights. The collateral damage is something this movie should just own. Superman is a huge part of it. Same goes for the kill at the end. Just own it, this clearly isn't the Superman movie you'd expect or are use to.
I said more suits because logically all 40 aren't going to be sent to pile on Faora. Like I said Tony/Jarvis did a good job of coordinating the fights of the suits to protect himself as well as attack. I already said you're crazy if you think 40 suits are gonna be dealt with in seconds and the more you keep talking about it the more you're making that clear to me.
The first thing Goku always does is go to a deserted area for his Earth trembling fights. The collateral damage is something this movie should just own. Superman is a huge part of it. Same goes for the kill at the end. Just own it, this clearly isn't the Superman movie you'd expect or are use to.
I never said the suits wouldn't be destroyed though. Maybe you should rewatch the final fight scene of IM3.
Missiles =/= repulsor blasts.
Nowhere have you stated how 40 suits are being taken out in seconds
I said more suits because logically all 40 aren't going to be sent to pile on Faora. Like I said Tony/Jarvis did a good job of coordinating the fights of the suits to protect himself as well as attack. I already said you're crazy if you think 40 suits are gonna be dealt with in seconds and the more you keep talking about it the more you're making that clear to me.What army? I thought you said the lames who stayed in the ship don't count? If they stayed in the ship while Supes fought why are they coming out to fight when Tony does?
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- Dec 13, 2004
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Yeah I did.
Because you said IM cna take on a "bunch of kryptonians".
Unless by a "bunch" you meant 3? But yeah, I'll give that to you, 3 Kryptonians, no way in hell they can still coordinate an attack to remove their mask when they are military trained themselves. Divide 42 by 3 and they'd only each have to take out 14, that is an easy task witht heir speed and strength and vulnerability.
Fine I'll give you that freebie again but again how do you know a repulsor ray can damage the unknown metal the Kryptonian armor are made off when missiles can barely make a dent?
Why? So I can see how easily those suits get destroyed?
By Extremis people who isn't even as strong or as fast or as smart as Kryptonians? Those suits were blasting through extremis people and moving on, they can't do that with the Kryptonians. More than half of the Extremis suits were destroyed not to mention the 2, 3 or 4 suits that Stark was wearing? Dude even had to be saved by Pepper Potts, he couldn't beat Killian by himself and all those suits. Maybe you should watch it again and see how that ending would have worked out for Stark if Potts wasn't around.
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- Jul 31, 2007
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No you just made up a time that you think she'd take out the suits in.
Why are the suits being taken out as easily as human soldiers though?
There's no consistency here with what you're saying. I bring up that IM has taken hits from Thor. You bring up the extremis soldiers punching holes in the suits. You think the extremis soldiers are stronger than Thor? Yet Thor is one of the guys you're saying should be taking on the 3 kryptonians.
This is why I said you'd have to be crazy and you keep proving it. I'm not agreeing with you that Faora is taking out 40 IM suits in under a minute
because she took out human soldiers in less than a second. There's a clear disconnect. I hope you see it.Yeah then you said the other kryptonians wouldn't be involved because they were in the ship. I didn't bring up Tony taking on a bunch of kryptonians since. I brought up and his 40+ suits taking on Faora. So are we adding in those underdeveloped unseen soldiers?
Including Tony swapping out of suits the task is achievable. Of course specifcally with Zod he wouldn't want the fight to be prolonged, so he'd be first to get his armor broken. 7+ repulsor blasts are taking out that gas mask helmet.
The metal isn't unbreakable. Repulsor blasts > missiles. Lois was taking out those lame soldiers with a kryptonian gun.
Tony never had all of the suits to fight Killian though. It's not like dude started off in perfect health with his main armor intact and all his suits got wrecked, he fought dude after battling a bunch of other soldiers
So you can see how they were used in the fight since you've forgotten but now that you bring up Pepper she infected with extremis probably could take out Faora. (Gotta say again more crazy talk by you bringing up Pepper's involvement in beating Killian which is irrelevant. It's not like Superman saved the day on his own. He needed Lois)
So 2 left and no face Namek probably get washed by the suits alone and then you got Tony left to mess with Zod.
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- Feb 29, 2000
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forgot about ghostrider 2 :x
never seen the ff movies
also kick *** was pretty good
- Feb 29, 2000
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I thought it should have been a bit longer.
would have liked to have seen more scenes of him getting used to his super powers. also a little more good deeds such as saving a few people against small crime and criminals.
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That was your response when I initially brought up elements of IM3. Tony's lack of tactical training and the ability to let some choppers shoot up his base shows. this vs 3 military trained kryptonians
I was going to let it slide but you keep using that movie as a defense so.....
Eh the same IM suits that were taking blows from Thor can't take blows from those 3 now? When they're not even fully powered?
If if she's taking out each suit in less than a second, send more suits. That's more than enough time to coordinate an attack.
I'm definitely keeping up with the convo. I was giving you those three as a courtesy so they could be a distraction so Tony would live longer but have it your way.
Thor was barely handling those aliens and they were dying from bullets from Widow and arrows from Hawkeye. He was extra weak in The Avengers
Apparently the extremis soldiers and Killian were because those armors were getting shredded and Thor barely hurt Tony right?
What basis do you have to say those guns are weak. If I'm not mistaken those same type blasts were being shot from their ships and were making short work of military craft. One shot kills.
Now you sound ridiculous. What exactly made Killian stronger than any of the other soldier? Pepper took him out by hitting him with a beam and a repulsor blast
. You think Tony is gonna have time against beings that move that fast to hop from armor to armor and survive?
I'm sorry but Tony is a dead man
- Nov 24, 2009
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Surprised no one said batman would beat Superman, Zod's people, The Avengers, and the Chitauri with 30 seconds of prep time.
MarvelSux
formerly brucewayne
- Jul 19, 2012
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I'm humble
- Jul 30, 2011
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Might be my favorite comic of all time & I'm a Marvel fan (for the most part)...
- Jul 18, 2012
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The John Wiliams main theme will never be bettered...
But man, Hans Zimmer's soundtrack for this film is outstanding! Been listening to it fully on repeat for two days now and it just keeps getting better with every listen.
But man, Hans Zimmer's soundtrack for this film is outstanding! Been listening to it fully on repeat for two days now and it just keeps getting better with every listen.
- Aug 6, 2012
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The problem with him killing Zod is that he's not the only villain that will harm people. All villians try to destroy the world / cities and people will get hurt. So based on what happened in this film, Superman is going to have to kill every villain that comes by. Which is going to be a mess, because I'm sure they won't even address this issue in a sequel.
