Let's talk about Kobe's legacy......try your hardest to be objective...

[jsindaa]

Ghenges...it doesn't matter how many times you say it...that statement is simply not true. At all. If it was there wouldn't be a debate of Bron beingthe best player in the league over Kobe...it would be TD.....and well no one says that now do they? Kobe has easily been the best at the very least half ofthis decade. The best 2 guard for pretty much the entire decade.

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987



The thing is I'm not under rating him though. He was a amazing defensive player, made All-NBA 3x, he's was great. But what other than that has he ever
achieved without Jordan?

ok let me show you something quite funny...

an amazing defensive player won DPOY
made the all star teams 2 times
made the playoffs 3 straight years
2 All-NBA selections

besides that what has Jordan achieved without Pippen

everything you posted was irrelevant...

Jordan without Pippen...

Jordan got a bunch of individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

Pippen without Jordan...

scottie got a couple individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

neither one of them won a championship without the other... those are facts...

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

quik1987 wrote:

---

The thing is I'm not under rating him though. He was a amazing defensive player, made All-NBA 3x, he's was great. But what other than that has he
ever


achieved without Jordan?

ok let me show you something quite funny...




an amazing defensive player won DPOY


made the all star teams 2 times


made the playoffs 3 straight years


2 All-NBA selections




besides that what has Jordan achieved without Pippen

everything you posted was irrelevant...

Jordan without Pippen...

Jordan got a bunch of individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

Pippen without Jordan...

scottie got a couple individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

neither one of them won a championship without the other... those are facts...



Has Pippen ever lead his team to the chip?

Has Kobe ever lead his team to the chip?

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

quik1987 wrote:

---

The thing is I'm not under rating him though. He was a amazing defensive player, made All-NBA 3x, he's was great. But what other than that has he
ever


achieved without Jordan?

ok let me show you something quite funny...




an amazing defensive player won DPOY


made the all star teams 2 times


made the playoffs 3 straight years


2 All-NBA selections




besides that what has Jordan achieved without Pippen

everything you posted was irrelevant...

Jordan without Pippen...

Jordan got a bunch of individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

Pippen without Jordan...

scottie got a couple individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF

neither one of them won a championship without the other... those are facts...

Has Pippen ever lead his team to the chip?

Has Kobe ever lead his team to the chip?
i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...

but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

quik1987 wrote:

---

ericberry14 wrote:

---

quik1987 wrote:

---

The thing is I'm not under rating him though. He was a amazing defensive player, made All-NBA 3x, he's was great. But what other than that has
he


ever






achieved without Jordan?

ok let me show you something quite funny...










an amazing defensive player won DPOY






made the all star teams 2 times






made the playoffs 3 straight years






2 All-NBA selections










besides that what has Jordan achieved without Pippen

everything you posted was irrelevant...




Jordan without Pippen...




Jordan got a bunch of individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF




Pippen without Jordan...




scottie got a couple individual awards... and team wise he made it to the ECF




neither one of them won a championship without the other... those are facts...






Has Pippen ever lead his team to the chip?




Has Kobe ever lead his team to the chip?
i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...

but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success



I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

 

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by Ghenges

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

He'll be great...but the argument would always stand that he couldn't do it without Shaq should he not win another ring.

And when they look back at his career, he won't be the clear cut best during any season. (that's practically true now)

congratulations! you get the dumbest post of the week award!

you had always seemed like a relatively knowledgeable poster too.... is it hatred that is smothering your intelligence?

So you're saying that all these seasons that have passed with AI, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, PP(

) doing their thing and putting up numbers there hasn't been debates on Kobe being the best or not?

Hell even his mvp season had people arguing about whether Chris Paul deserved it.

Bottom line if he doesn't win a championship soon he won't be as highly regarded as he's been.

I have no hate against Kobe unless he's playing my team and he already knocked them off so yeah.

there are always going to be homers making idiotic statements.. just because someone can say their favorite player was better than Kobe doesn't mean they actually have any credence.

at the end of the day, any knowledgeable NBA fan will agree that Kobe OWNED 2004-2008. he didn't win a championship in that time period because of his team, but no one can deny that he was the best individual player in the NBA.

you are a Rockets fan, i'm never going to believe that you don't have any bias against Kobe. but whatever you say...

Second best player for the last 9 years.

Maybe I'll give him 2004 and 2006, but I would still take TD in those years if I had a choice.

I'm talking NINE YEARS and you people are pointing out a handful of games and plays.

You guys need to set your emotions aside when you talk about Kobe.

lol.. really now? really...

in 2006, Tim Duncan had plantar fascitis and had the worst season in his career to date.. he didn't even make All-NBA first team that year. and the Spurs lost in the 2nd round that year despite being the best team in the West. yet you just said you would take Duncan in the worst season of his career over Kobe Bryant's best season (and one of the greatest in NBA history). okay.

Tim Duncan has been the model of consistency, and he has benefited from being on a consistent TEAM and has had great coaching and talent around him for his entire career. but if you think Kobe Bryant was not playing at a higher level than Tim Duncan for a solid 4-5+ years (and i put the plus, because even now Kobe will continue to be better than Duncan until Timmy retires), i'm sorry but you are either a fool or a hater. which one is it?

TD was still the best player on the planet in 2006..just injured. He came back in 2007 and anchored his team to another championshp didn't he? IF you were to choose Kobe over TD in 2003, 2005, 2007 to anchor a team, then you're just blind. I'll GIVE you 2004 and 2006. But 4-5+ years during 2003-2007 playing better than TD? Bollocks.

And watch the name calling. If you're not going to be objective about it, don't bother responding to my posts.

I've said it before... 15% of the people in the S&T forum actually know sports, the other 85% are just here to cheer on their favorite team/player. Know where you stand.
i apologize for the insults, that was uncalled for.

2003 Duncan was better than 2003 Kobe.. i never said anything about 2003. that Spurs team was still so young and inexperienced, and Duncan just willed them tothe championship. even though Kobe was a superstar at the time, i don't think he could have done what Timmy did that season at such a young age (he was 24then).

the time period i am defining is the 2004-2005 to the present... Kobe has clearly been a better individual player than Duncan in that time period, and willcontinue to be.

the teams Duncan anchored were already the most talented in the NBA. Duncan didn't even win Finals MVP in one of their championships.. that's not aknock against him, it just shows you how much talent the Spurs have had.

but do you really think Duncan could have taken a weak team like the 06 Lakers to the playoffs? they started guys like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm...they NEEDED Kobe to score 35ppg just to be a decent team. you think Duncan could have averaged 35ppg on that team? i don't think so.

if i wanted a guy who would put his team on his back every single night and carry them to victory, i would pick Kobe. if i already had the most talented teamin the league and i wanted a leader who could bring it all together, i would pick Duncan (although Kobe, if he wins the championship this year, would haveplayed THAT role as well.. thus being better than Duncan in multiple facets).

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...
but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...


but my point is this...




Jordan never won a championship without Scottie




Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...




Much like Kobe will be forever linked to Shaq in terms of championship success

 

[JD617]

Quik, you need to learn how to quote. You just butchered this page and page 11.

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...
but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...

Much like Kobe will be forever linked to Shaq in terms of championship success
hmm. Kobe only needs 1 championship & its broken... he has a good chance of getting one in the next 3 years including this one...

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by JD617

Quik, you need to learn how to quote. You just butchered this page and page 11.

apologies

 

[theyoungestgun]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...
but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...

Much like Kobe will be forever linked to Shaq in terms of championship success

hmm. Kobe only needs 1 championship & its broken... he has a good chance of getting one in the next 3 years including this one...




just like shaq is linked to kobe and to wade. because without kobe he wouldnt have won either.. remember when he fouled out and kobe won that game in the finalminutes in indiana?

 

[sooperhooper]

Kobe will be considered as one of the greats, period. All of this "tied with shaq" talk is ridiculous. Think of how many great players have no rings(karl malone, stockton, barkley etc.). Kobe has 3 rings and it's bascially disrespectful to downgrade his success on some technicality like "ohwithout shaq he wouldn't have them". Well without Kobe or wade, shaq wouldn't have any. Rings only emphasize a player's legacy, not define it.

 

[crazy dav0]

can we wait till the end of the season b4 we talk about this

... to me if the lakers don't win this year kobe won't win anymore rings ...


if he wins obviously he did it w/o shaq and his legacy is that much better ... its really that simple


if he doesn't win anymore he couldn't do it w/out shaq ... the quitting game 7 against phoenix, game 6 vs. celtics .. will come to the forefront imo...


also he'll just be known as one of the best offensive players ever ... that couldn't lead on his own

 

[ghenges]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by Ghenges

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

He'll be great...but the argument would always stand that he couldn't do it without Shaq should he not win another ring.

And when they look back at his career, he won't be the clear cut best during any season. (that's practically true now)

congratulations! you get the dumbest post of the week award!

you had always seemed like a relatively knowledgeable poster too.... is it hatred that is smothering your intelligence?

So you're saying that all these seasons that have passed with AI, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, PP(

) doing their thing and putting up numbers there hasn't been debates on Kobe being the best or not?

Hell even his mvp season had people arguing about whether Chris Paul deserved it.

Bottom line if he doesn't win a championship soon he won't be as highly regarded as he's been.

I have no hate against Kobe unless he's playing my team and he already knocked them off so yeah.

there are always going to be homers making idiotic statements.. just because someone can say their favorite player was better than Kobe doesn't mean they actually have any credence.

at the end of the day, any knowledgeable NBA fan will agree that Kobe OWNED 2004-2008. he didn't win a championship in that time period because of his team, but no one can deny that he was the best individual player in the NBA.

you are a Rockets fan, i'm never going to believe that you don't have any bias against Kobe. but whatever you say...

Second best player for the last 9 years.

Maybe I'll give him 2004 and 2006, but I would still take TD in those years if I had a choice.

I'm talking NINE YEARS and you people are pointing out a handful of games and plays.

You guys need to set your emotions aside when you talk about Kobe.

lol.. really now? really...

in 2006, Tim Duncan had plantar fascitis and had the worst season in his career to date.. he didn't even make All-NBA first team that year. and the Spurs lost in the 2nd round that year despite being the best team in the West. yet you just said you would take Duncan in the worst season of his career over Kobe Bryant's best season (and one of the greatest in NBA history). okay.

Tim Duncan has been the model of consistency, and he has benefited from being on a consistent TEAM and has had great coaching and talent around him for his entire career. but if you think Kobe Bryant was not playing at a higher level than Tim Duncan for a solid 4-5+ years (and i put the plus, because even now Kobe will continue to be better than Duncan until Timmy retires), i'm sorry but you are either a fool or a hater. which one is it?

TD was still the best player on the planet in 2006..just injured. He came back in 2007 and anchored his team to another championshp didn't he? IF you were to choose Kobe over TD in 2003, 2005, 2007 to anchor a team, then you're just blind. I'll GIVE you 2004 and 2006. But 4-5+ years during 2003-2007 playing better than TD? Bollocks.

And watch the name calling. If you're not going to be objective about it, don't bother responding to my posts.

I've said it before... 15% of the people in the S&T forum actually know sports, the other 85% are just here to cheer on their favorite team/player. Know where you stand.

i apologize for the insults, that was uncalled for.

2003 Duncan was better than 2003 Kobe.. i never said anything about 2003. that Spurs team was still so young and inexperienced, and Duncan just willed them to the championship. even though Kobe was a superstar at the time, i don't think he could have done what Timmy did that season at such a young age (he was 24 then).

the time period i am defining is the 2004-2005 to the present... Kobe has clearly been a better individual player than Duncan in that time period, and will continue to be.

the teams Duncan anchored were already the most talented in the NBA. Duncan didn't even win Finals MVP in one of their championships.. that's not a knock against him, it just shows you how much talent the Spurs have had.

but do you really think Duncan could have taken a weak team like the 06 Lakers to the playoffs? they started guys like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm... they NEEDED Kobe to score 35ppg just to be a decent team. you think Duncan could have averaged 35ppg on that team? i don't think so.

if i wanted a guy who would put his team on his back every single night and carry them to victory, i would pick Kobe. if i already had the most talented team in the league and i wanted a leader who could bring it all together, i would pick Duncan (although Kobe, if he wins the championship this year, would have played THAT role as well.. thus being better than Duncan in multiple facets).





In the last two years, yes, Kobe has been better than Duncan. However, I never said that he wasn't better than TD (in the last two years) in my originalpost.

That Spurs team was a great team. But who made them great? It was Duncan. The offense flowed through him. His teammates BECAME better players because he wason their team. How many open shots did he create for his teammates when he touched the ball? He also anchored their defense as well. Parker got the FInalsMVP in 2007 but Duncan was the player who took that team to the finals.

I do not believe for a second that the Spurs team would be considered 'the most talented team in the league' without Duncan. It's BECAUSE ofDuncan that those guys were able to shine.

Anyway, it's all subjective. We can agree to disagree.

 

[sd54east]

When kobe retires he will easily be considered the second best of all time. He's hands down the best player since MJ and lebron will never be able to shootor close games out like the black mamba. IMO hes the best laker ever.

 

[mercutio]

Kobe's legacy will depend on the media's portrayal of him after he retires and steps away from the game. Sure, he's a polarizing figure now andlegions of haters target him, but depending on how the media portrays him after everyone forgets about his indiscretions and seemingly unfriendly mannerisms,he very well has a chance to be considered one of the most dynamic scorers of the decade and 2nd greatest shooting guard behind MJ himself.

Already he's got the title of deadliest closer in the game, and I feel like that will be a major factor in his legacy as reason for Laker fans andbasketball fans to love him, as well as opposing teams to hate him.

 

[doctorshoes]

Originally Posted by SD54east

When kobe retires he will easily be considered the second best of all time. He's hands down the best player since MJ and lebron will never be able to shoot or close games out like the black mamba. IMO hes the best laker ever.

He's better than Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, and Larry Bird? All those are arguable. And best laker ever? Have you ever heard of Magic Johnson or Kareem AbdulJabbar, who are without a doubt in the top 5 all time and are without question the greatest Lakers of all time? He is the second best shooting guard of alltime though.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...
but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...

Much like Kobe will be forever linked to Shaq in terms of championship success

hmm. Kobe only needs 1 championship & its broken... he has a good chance of getting one in the next 3 years including this one...


Then he has a good chance of not being forever linked to Shaq but until then he's Robin.

 

[downtown43]

lol, come on. nobody thinks of "Robin" when they think of Kobe or his career. it's not 2000 anymore.

whether he wins another ring or not, he has already carved out his own great legacy in the league.. and it does not involve Shaq.

 

[ph3n0m3n0n]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

He'll be great...but the argument would always stand that he couldn't do it without Shaq should he not win another ring.

And when they look back at his career, he won't be the clear cut best during any season. (that's practically true now)

congratulations! you get the dumbest post of the week award!

you had always seemed like a relatively knowledgeable poster too.... is it hatred that is smothering your intelligence?

So you're saying that all these seasons that have passed with AI, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, PP(

) doing their thing and putting up numbers there hasn't been debates on Kobe being the best or not?

Hell even his mvp season had people arguing about whether Chris Paul deserved it.

Bottom line if he doesn't win a championship soon he won't be as highly regarded as he's been.

I have no hate against Kobe unless he's playing my team and he already knocked them off so yeah.

there are always going to be homers making idiotic statements.. just because someone can say their favorite player was better than Kobe doesn't mean they actually have any credence.

at the end of the day, any knowledgeable NBA fan will agree that Kobe OWNED 2004-2008. he didn't win a championship in that time period because of his team, but no one can deny that he was the best individual player in the NBA.

you are a Rockets fan, i'm never going to believe that you don't have any bias against Kobe. but whatever you say...

He didn't own that whole period though.

05-06 absolutely I'll agree. He scored just about every point for his team that year but the other seasons are up in the air in terms of individualplayers.

 

[ben roethlisberger]

I want to know what factors in on a player being better then another player. I think it's blasphemy saying that TD was ever better then Kobe. Betterwinner? Yes, after Shaq left, you could say that. But an overall better player? No. For christ sakes you are comparing two different positions, each player hadto do different things to win. Kobe was/IS and always will be a better scorer. The way he gets his points is unbelievable. No one else can do it. By far thebest overall individual player in the league the last 9 or 10 years.

And smh @ people talking as if TD never had The Admiral, Stephen Jackson, Ginobli, and Tony Parker.

 

[backirvine]

Originally Posted by sooperhooper

Kobe will be considered as one of the greats, period. All of this "tied with shaq" talk is ridiculous. Think of how many great players have no rings (karl malone, stockton, barkley etc.). Kobe has 3 rings and it's bascially disrespectful to downgrade his success on some technicality like "oh without shaq he wouldn't have them". Well without Kobe or wade, shaq wouldn't have any. Rings only emphasize a player's legacy, not define it.

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Kobe's legacy will depend on the media's portrayal of him after he retires and steps away from the game. Sure, he's a polarizing figure now and legions of haters target him, but depending on how the media portrays him after everyone forgets about his indiscretions and seemingly unfriendly mannerisms, he very well has a chance to be considered one of the most dynamic scorers of the decade and 2nd greatest shooting guard behind MJ himself.

Already he's got the title of deadliest closer in the game, and I feel like that will be a major factor in his legacy as reason for Laker fans and basketball fans to love him, as well as opposing teams to hate him.

I also agree with this.

I think Kobe will be ranked at least one of the top 15 in the game, regardless of championships. How the media views him in the future and to what extent thegeneral public agree/are dicated to on the subject by the media will define if he's seen as just a top 15 player or the number 2 player of all time.

In one of Jordan's videos, it may be 'Above and Beyond' or something earlier than that, Jordan himself says what has made him be viewed as thegreatest. He said something like (and I'm paraphrasing): 'It's just to do with timing'. I think had a player like Kobe, Lebron or even someonelike D Wade swapped places with MJ in the 80's/90's they would be seen as this mythical figure that MJ is. MJ is the best player I think but hisposition has been elevated to a level that I don't think anyone will ever reach purely because the media surrounding basketball and the whole marketing ofJordan was at its very peak as he was. Don't get me wrong I think Jordan is a cut above all of these players but timing has played such a huge part in themaking of him.

A very bad comparison but still relevant is if The Beatles launched as a band today they wouldn't have the GOAT status they do. It was because they werereally the first to do what they did and the timing of the late 1950's/early 1960's was perfect for what they were doing.

Yeah to an extent Dr. J did what MJ did but MJ took it to a whole other level and the timing was just great for him to do so. These debates are so subjectiveyou're really only going to please the people that agree with you to start with, but the only thing that did used to annoy me was Bob Costas for the whole1997-1998 season when commentating on Bulls game and a name was mentioned as the next Jordan (normally Kobe) would say 'That's a bit silly as therewill never be another Michael Jordan', I disagree as you can't predict what's going to happen. I'm sure people said during the Magic/Bird erathat no one will replace them and then along came MJ and eclipsed them both together. I can't see Kobe ever being seen better as MJ but Lebron just could,but then who knows what could happen.

My final word on this is that if anyone is going to be seen as better than MJ they have a lot of work to do. The number of game winners and spectacular playsthat MJ had during the three years of his first comeback are more than most players have their entire careers.

 

[onetrust]

Originally Posted by TheYoungestGun

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by quik1987

ericberry14 wrote:

---

i dont even know what you're arguing anymore...
but my point is this...

Jordan never won a championship without Scottie

Jordan & Pippen each achieved the same level without the other in terms of team success

I thought this was about Pippen not being able to escape Jordan's shadow as a champion like Kobe not being able to escape Shaq's Shadow

no not at all... well damn seems like we had some serious miscommunication

But Pippen will forever be linked to Jordan in terms of championship success, he just doesnt get the credit he deserves here on NT...

Much like Kobe will be forever linked to Shaq in terms of championship success

hmm. Kobe only needs 1 championship & its broken... he has a good chance of getting one in the next 3 years including this one...

just like shaq is linked to kobe and to wade. because without kobe he wouldnt have won either.. remember when he fouled out and kobe won that game in the final minutes in indiana?
Sorry Kobe fans...Shaq KILLED that BS when he won one WITHOUT Kobe as a member of the Heat. It's HILARIOUS to me that Kobe fans still act asif Shaq NEVER had Kobe, he wouldn't have won a ring.

Anyway, he's one of the all time greatest talents in the NBA, period.

 

[raptors29]

Him being accused of rape damaged his legacy a little bit.