JASON KIDD APPRECIATION

[statis22]

Its hard to say who was better Kidd or Stockton, but Kidd > Thomas is easy IMO.

As in Isiah? Let's not go overboard.

 

[4one5]

Lets not forget this man averaged a triple double for a whole playoff series. One of my favorite PGs of all time.

 

[JD617]

I forgot Chauncey too.

Billups > Kidd

 

[solemate96]

Always loved when he would blow a kiss to the rim when he shot his free throws.

 

[law3001]

I forgot Chauncey too.

Billups > Kidd

You're obviously a cluck

 

[darthska]

[quote name="JD617"]I forgot Chauncey too.
 
Billups > Kidd [/quote] I'm glad you said that, because now I know you're just ****ing around.

*whew*

 

[rrlegend]

I shouldn't have even asked that question lol

Its hard to say who was better Kidd or Stockton, but Kidd > Thomas is easy IMO.

Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Jason Bwatty Boy Collins all should give thanks to based god for Kidd showing up in NJ.

I wished Toni didn't **** up the first run in Dallas. And man did I have high hopes for Blonde Kidd and Penny as a backcourt

dude made and rejuvenated careers with his stint in jersey 

 sucks that he got robbed of the mvp those years because of him slapping juwanna over some fries.

 

[worldbeefreeg]

OKB spitting that nonsense on twitter last night that the gap defensively between Kidd and Nash defensively was equivalent to the gap between Nash and Kidd offensively

 

[JD617]

It's true, though. Or at the very least it's close. 

Let's look at how Nash's teams did offensively:

'00: 7th

'01: 4th

'02: 1st

'03: 1st

'04: 1st

'05: 1st

'06: 2nd

'07: 1st

'08: 2nd

'09: 2nd

'10: 1st

'11: 9th

'12: 9th

'13: 9th

So his teams had the 1st or 2nd best offense for his entire prime. 9th is considered bad for him. Let's see how Kidd's teams did offensively:

'95: 15th

'96: 19th

'97: 28th/6th (traded in December)

'98: 12th

'99: 4th

'00: 16th

'01: 22nd

'02: 17th

'03: 18th

'04: 25th

'05: 26th

'06: 25th

'07: 16th

'08: 25th/8th (traded in Feb.)

'09: 5th

'10: 10th

'11: 8th

'12: 22nd

'13: 3rd

Look at all that struggle offense in his prime years. OKB always talks about this, shooting is crucial at the PG position. There's a strong correlation between how well your PG can shoot and how good your offense is overall. Look at Rondo, great passer, triple double machine, but a minus shooter, kind of similar to prime Kidd in that way. How have the Celtics been doing offensively lately?

'10: 15th

'11: 18th

'12: 27th

'13: 24th (it was a disaster both pre and post ACL)

I know what you're gonna say, Nash played with Dirk, Amare, Joe Johnson, etc. Of course his teams had great offenses. Well look at those bum-*** '10-'11 and '11-12 rosters that were the victim of Robert Sarver's cheapness. He STILL managed to get those teams into the top 10 at 36-38 years old. Kidd at one point had Vince Carter before he became a bum and put up a bottom 5 offense in the league. 

 You would probably need to surround Nash with all DII college kids for him to ever be on a team with a bottom 5 offense.

Look at the top 11 offenses of all time in terms of offensive rating compared to the league average:

6 out of 11 of them had Steve Nash. Six out of eleven. 

We know about the four 50/40/90 seasons,

And he shot 49.7% from the field this year, 49.2%/39.5% in '11, and 89.9% from the line in '07. He's a hair away from having 7 of these when no one else has more than 2. So he has a legit case as the greatest shooter ever, he's right near the very top of the list of greatest passers ever, and elite offenses follow him wherever he goes. By any measure he's one of the greatest offensive players to ever pick up a basketball.

 

[darthska]

so many championships in that list of top 11 offensive teams of all time.

"Offense scores points, defense wins championships."

you mentioned Rondo: 2 appearances, 1 win.

Kidd: 3 appearances, 1 win

Nash: "Championship? What's a... oh, wait... is that when there's only the 2 teams left, and they play, like, what is it... a 7 game series? I've heard about those. Seems fun. I'm one of the best offensive PGs ever, though. I'm good w/ that."

*waits for "Championships are a team accomplishment", like having a top all-time offense is literally the accomplishment of just one guy*

 

[JD617]

Since Nash had so many close calls with 50/40/90 seasons I decided to look at the 49/39/89 club.

Bird, Hornacek, and Calderon had 3. Nash had 8 in a row. 

Sorry, back to your Jason Kidd thread...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

so many championships in that list of top 11 offensive teams of all time.

"Offense scores points, defense wins championships."

you mentioned Rondo: 2 appearances, 1 win.

Kidd: 3 appearances, 1 win

Nash: "Championship? What's a... oh, wait... is that when there's only the 2 teams left, and they play, like, what is it... a 7 game series? I've heard about those. Seems fun. I'm one of the best offensive PGs ever, though. I'm good w/ that."

*waits for "Championships are a team accomplishment", like having a top all-time offense is literally the accomplishment of just one guy*

The best teams wins a championships.

Teams that are all defense no offense never win either, ultimatley I don't understand how it's crazy to think that Payton or Nash are better than Kidd, Kidd didn't win as the main guy either so the championship point is moot.





I think Nash, Payton and Kidd are a wash, but I have CP3, John Stockton, comfortably ahead.

 

[baik]

Kidd is highly appreciated...but GP always made him look like a gump on the floor!

 

[mgrand15]

It's true, though. Or at the very least it's close. 

Let's look at how Nash's teams did offensively:

'00: 7th
'01: 4th
'02: 1st
'03: 1st
'04: 1st
'05: 1st
'06: 2nd
'07: 1st
'08: 2nd
'09: 2nd
'10: 1st
'11: 9th
'12: 9th
'13: 9th

So his teams had the 1st or 2nd best offense for his entire prime. 9th is considered bad for him. Let's see how Kidd's teams did offensively:

'95: 15th
'96: 19th
'97: 28th/6th (traded in December)
'98: 12th
'99: 4th
'00: 16th
'01: 22nd
'02: 17th
'03: 18th
'04: 25th
'05: 26th
'06: 25th
'07: 16th
'08: 25th/8th (traded in Feb.)
'09: 5th
'10: 10th
'11: 8th
'12: 22nd
'13: 3rd

Look at all that struggle offense in his prime years. OKB always talks about this, shooting is crucial at the PG position. There's a strong correlation between how well your PG can shoot and how good your offense is overall. Look at Rondo, great passer, triple double machine, but a minus shooter, kind of similar to prime Kidd in that way. How have the Celtics been doing offensively lately?

'10: 15th
'11: 18th
'12: 27th
'13: 24th (it was a disaster both pre and post ACL)

I know what you're gonna say, Nash played with Dirk, Amare, Joe Johnson, etc. Of course his teams had great offenses. Well look at those bum-*** '10-'11 and '11-12 rosters that were the victim of Robert Sarver's cheapness. He STILL managed to get those teams into the top 10 at 36-38 years old. Kidd at one point had Vince Carter before he became a bum and put up a bottom 5 offense in the league. 

 You would probably need to surround Nash with all DII college kids for him to ever be on a team with a bottom 5 offense.

Look at the top 11 offenses of all time in terms of offensive rating compared to the league average:

View media item 442758

6 out of 11 of them had Steve Nash. Six out of eleven. 

We know about the four 50/40/90 seasons,


View media item 442763

And he shot 49.7% from the field this year, 49.2%/39.5% in '11, and 89.9% from the line in '07. He's a hair away from having 7 of these when no one else has more than 2. So he has a legit case as the greatest shooter ever, he's right near the very top of the list of greatest passers ever, and elite offenses follow him wherever he goes. By any measure he's one of the greatest offensive players to ever pick up a basketball.

You really kill your whole argument with that.

2 years of Nash carrying jumpshooters doesn't change that fact. Nash has been surrounded by elite offensive players and shooters his whole career. He had the benefit of playing with Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni - two guys who stressed offense and spacing over everything. Jason Kidd carried defensive teams during his prime years and those years with a prime VC - the Nets were surrounded by the biggest scrubs in the world. Brian Scalabrine was getting major minutes. Mikki Moore got major minutes. Those teams weren't even filled with NBA quality players - much less good offensive players - definitely much worse than Nash's worst supporting cast. The two played in such different situations that I think it's unfair to compare their teammates.

 

[JD617]

"Offense scores points, defense wins championships."

Nah man, almost every NBA champion has BOTH a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense. There aren't that many exceptions for either. 

 

[JD617]

Another thing, on the subject of the Finals, most people (including you AMP) agree Iverson's run to the Finals happened in one of the weakest conferences in history. Why is it different for Kidd? Nash played his entire career in the West and didn't have the luxury of going up against the bum-*** early 2000s East.

Also this is a hypothetical and impossible to prove but it's possible (I might even say probable) Nash has some jewelry right now if the Horry hip check never happens in '07.

 

[darthska]

hey, no argument from me on that Horry hip check.

 

[pmatic]

JD went to work in here.

 

[duba169]

I didn't know that people thought Chris Paul was better than prime Kidd.

 

[JD617]

You really kill your whole argument with that.

2 years of Nash carrying jumpshooters doesn't change that fact. Nash has been surrounded by elite offensive players and shooters his whole career. He had the benefit of playing with Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni - two guys who stressed offense and spacing over everything. Jason Kidd carried defensive teams during his prime years and those years with a prime VC - the Nets were surrounded by the biggest scrubs in the world. Brian Scalabrine was getting major minutes. Mikki Moore got major minutes. Those teams weren't even filled with NBA quality players - much less good offensive players - definitely much worse than Nash's worst supporting cast. The two played in such different situations that I think it's unfair to compare their teammates.

They had Richard Jefferson before he became a bum too. You're right about the rest of the team being bad offensively but you're saying a Kidd-Carter-Jefferson trio all in their primes should've been the 6th-worst offense in the entire league? Worse than the Starbury/Jamal Crawford/Eddy Curry/Steve Francis iso ball/And1 Mixtape Tour Knicks that were the laughingstock of the NBA?

It's impossible for me to picture any team with Nash being that bad offensively, not when he had a top 10 offense with Marcin Gortat as his leading scorer, averaging a whopping 15.4 points a game.

 

[kingfoamnyc]

Would CP3 get rated so high if he was a Knick ? Doubt it. Y'all really need to slow down he's not in that class yet .

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Ehh maybe I'm biased because I'm a Mavs fan maybe it gives me a unique perspective but I never could get over the fact that heights of my franchise's success happened right after Steve Nash left.

Like dude played with TONS of talent in Dallas we never did ****.

I still have nightmares about what Mike Bibby used to do him.

At the peak of their powers I think Kidd had a bigger overall positive impact on his team.

 

[jay y kay]

Are people serious about CP3 being 'comfortably' better than Kidd and Nash? I think both Kidd and Nash are top 10 all time PGs, hard to rate who's better than the other, but CP3 is still not quite there. Skills wise, he's probably on par, if not better, but accomplishment wise, it's not even close.

 

[supervi11ain]

one of my favorite players of all time.

kidd was put on guarding lebron for stretches in the finals 2 years ago and actually did a good job.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

one of my favorite players of all time.

kidd was put on guarding lebron for stretches in the finals 2 years ago and actually did a good job.

And Kobe and Durant

At 37 years old