Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[moderndarwin]

This is the problem with the Jewish/Israeli victim mentality on this conflict...Their safety requires the occupation, imprisonment, and oppression of another people, so they will never have safety. EVERYTHING they had established to create Israel is inherently violent, and they will continue to justify the violence with the racist and genocidal idea that those they oppress must be even more violent oppressive than they are, and will use that resistance to that oppression to feed the fear needed to maintain this cycle and victim mentality.

Palestinian resistance fighters will never surrender. They have been fighting since the inception of Israel which was established through their occupation, dispossession, ethnic cleansing and genocides. Only way you can kill off violent resistance from the occupied is to stop the violent aggression, occupation, Apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the occupier Israel.

Israel doesn't get to say they created a violent system of oppression, but now they have to maintain it because they shouldn't have to take any personal risk to dismantle it.

For some reason, the idea of Palestinian liberation makes them feel unsafe, and if that simple thought of freedom for a people makes them feel threatened, they need to take a hard look at themselves and their bigotry to feed and justify oppression and systemic violence just to maintain their existence.

you never responded to my world safety numbers btw.

this is inherently the problem though. Neither side is right or wrong. There’s only power and lack of power. No Arab countries would be welcoming of Jews as a majority people so they want to claim the land. And the unfortunate reality is that there are already people there. In olden times it would have been a simple non diplomatic you either die by the sword fighting or you leave sort of thing. In the modern world Israelis and Palestinians have had to play this pretend game of we can share the land. Now Israel feels like it has the excuse to go do what it’s always wanted - get the Palestinians out.

It’s like same as 9/11 that’s what people don’t seem to understand on this thread. Like the reaction level the US government had was so over the top and global scale. Israel is simply doing the same thing. Whether the justification or underlying reason is right or wrong is a footnote of history it’s just a power dynamic struggle.

I don’t know how anyone could offer any advice to the Palestinians except to leave. It’s like telling an abused woman to stay in the household with the abuser and maybe long term they’ll work it out. Regardless of how wrong the abuser is that’s power dynamics and world conflict realities tht have existed for thousands of years. Humans are inherently a tribal conflict driven species.

 

[ballinsam23]

Garbage.

So you rather Hamas not surrender and continue not caring about Palestinians kids dying 20 meters above them? Got it.

Anyone who thinks Hamas or any terrorist organization is gonna free Palestine is clueless.

 

[smedroc]

 

[me love nutella]

you never responded to my world safety numbers btw.

So sorry! Ya, there's a few posts now I only skim through for response because there is so much to say that is hard to just type.

I will get back to it if I remember.

I will get back to this post of yours too.

 

[IATT]

 

[DLF]

 

[degenerate423]

This part though… killing an innocent 10 year old girl in cold blood .

 

[LD7]

 

[Zainjal26]

 

[IATT]

 

[tkthafm]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[DripNick]

 

[ahat]

Israel pays these influencers

 

[IATT]

 

[getback]

Getting uglier by the day over there. Yikes. Hoping for a miracle end to this.

 

[nonnative]

Can you really argue that Palestinian leaders of the past (namely, Arafat and the PLO) haven't led their people on because "a better deal will be around the corner"? I mean, for all the praise that Oslo is getting today, let's remember that Arafat had few Arab leaders by his side after supporting the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, being active in the Lebanon civil war, and trying to destabilize the Jordanian monarchy.

Can we recognize the role the PLO's past is playing in the inability of Palestinian authorities to be effectively supported by Arab nations?

Can we recognize that Hamas has been committing war crimes (indiscriminate targeting of civilian centers)? The same ones Israel has been committing?

Can we recognize that given the unpopularity of Bibi and his coalition, attacking left-leaning Israelis was not a move to be praised if the overall outcome of the resistance is peace and a free Palestine? Can we agree that when your enemy is divided, the worst thing you can do is give them a reason to unite against you?

Can we recognize the problematic slogan that is "from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea, Palestine will be free?" Anyone care to pick up a map and figure out what that's supposed to mean?

I stand by what I said. Given that the playbook for successful resistance has been written in many places throughout the last century, and given what we know about the inability of the international community to enforce international law, it's insane to think that Hamas' current strategy will bear fruit for the Palestinian people.

What a completely unhinged, nonsensical stream of word vomit.

Your original statement was that she can't accept that a Hamas led Palestine can't be a solution to peace or safety for Israel.

My counter is that it's been going on for 80 years no matter who is leading Palestine.

And your counter is several random paragraphs about how the PLO also made mistakes, which coincidentally reinforces my point. And then you throw in some absolute pie in the sky, armchair diplomat talking points?

And you stand by what you said? You don't even know what you said in the first place.

 

[DripNick]

 

[getback]

Afghans in droves head to border to leave Pakistan ahead of a deadline in anti-migrant crackdown

Afghans are piling into trucks and buses and leaving Pakistan to avoid arrest and deportation. Their hurried departures on Tuesday came just hours before the expiration of a deadline for foreigners living in the country illegally to leave voluntarily or face deportation.

apnews.com

 

[gry60]

What a completely unhinged, nonsensical stream of word vomit.

Your original statement was that she can't accept that a Hamas led Palestine can't be a solution to peace or safety for Israel.

Care to prove how false this is?

The fact is, Hamas grew as the alternative solution for Palestinians who didn't accept a normalization process that took into account the existence of Israel. Their version of peace is not the PA's version of peace; their alliance with Iran, Hezbollah, the Houthis, etc... hinges on the isolation/non-existence of Israel (especially if you consider that, as me love nutella acknowledged, there are ethnic and ideological differences between all these groups). The Oct 7 attacks were motivated by a deepening of the Abraham accords, which have sidelined the Palestinian issue. This does shows that despite updating their charter, Hamas is pretty much against other Arab nations normalizing relations with Israel.

Can you answer this: how would you live with your neighbor if they forced your other neighbors to keep you in economic and strategic isolation?

My counter is that it's been going on for 80 years no matter who is leading Palestine.

And your counter is several random paragraphs about how the PLO also made mistakes, which coincidentally reinforces my point.

Actually, I did post on episodes of the conflict where Israelis came to the table with more than what Palestinians expected to receive, only for Arafat to say no. You entirely put the blame on Israelis keeping the conflict going when that's not just them. That's what the examples of the PLO failures are there for.

And then you throw in some absolute pie in the sky, armchair diplomat talking points?

The only people with pie-in-the-sky talking points are those who think that armed resistance will bring about a resolution to the conflict that each party can live with. Every decade, the size of territories controlled by Palestinians keeps shrinking, and no appeals to morality, rules of war, etc ... will shake America's support for Israel strategy. I don't think it should be this way, but this is how things are and will continue to be in the foreseeable future. And unfortunately, Palestinians have to contend with this reality.

And you stand by what you said? You don't even know what you said in the first place.

I said:

Because none of you are being honest.

And I've posted at length about Israeli and American blunders. To say that the way Biden has gone about this latest episode is "not great" is an understatement; he's been terrible, both for American foreign policy (Erdogan is already talking about creating another UN) and for Democrats (dropped to 17% from 49% support among American-Arabs).

 

[heelsandeers]

Israel appeared to have a genuine interest in peace post-Oslo for a brief moment (as did the Palestinians) but the far right simply had too much power and was not going to truly let it happen

I don't know Arafat's exact motivations (does anyone?) but it would truly be a world historical tragedy if the reason there’s still no peace is that he didn't want to give up his corruption gravy train

 

[gry60]

I don't know Arafat's exact motivations (does anyone?) but it would truly be a world historical tragedy if the reason there’s still no peace is that he didn't want to give up his corruption gravy train

According to reports/writings from negotiators who were at Camp David, he was worried about how the Arab world would see him if he agreed to peace, which wasn't delusional at the time, considering how many peacemakers have been assassinated by people from their own side.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]